AH Challange-WW1 Sealion

King Thomas

Banned
We all know why the Seamammal could not work in WW2-the RAF, the fact the German Navy was far too small, ect. But how about one early on in WW1, either the Germans attacking the UK or the UK attacking Germany.? At the start of WW1 air combat was in it's infancy, and both sides had large navies.
 
I can't see it working Germany-UK because at that time there was no technology to effectively move a sufficient number of men to maintain superiority.

The other way could work though, I believe it was Admiral Jellicoe who said that the only way the British could quickly win a war against Germany was to land on the Baltic shoreline and make a push for Berlin, but it would be unlikely for the Admiralty to accept this plan.
 
We all know why the Seamammal could not work in WW2-the RAF, the fact the German Navy was far too small, ect. But how about one early on in WW1, either the Germans attacking the UK or the UK attacking Germany.? At the start of WW1 air combat was in it's infancy, and both sides had large navies.

King Thomas

Some people had ideas of an operation in the Baltic which fortunately never took off. Even apart from the problems of getting through the Danish Straits, you would need to maintain a powerful fleet in the Baltic, fairly fair from its bases and exposed to continued attack by subs, torpedo boats etc.

Similarly I have seen suggestions of a German invasion of Britain but think they rarely end well for the Germans. At this point, for 1st world European nations with dense populations and transport networks, forces can be moved within the country quickly and easily. As such, even if a successful landing is made the defender can reinforce the front a lot easier, especially given the problems of supply a bridgehead by sea. Furthermore, even if some disaster meant the HSF gained numerical superiority over the GF the former would still have problems maintaining such an invasion. They need to have forces present to prevent naval bombardments, along with protecting convoys bringing supplies and reinforcements. The old problem of them needing to be strong all the time while the defender can attack at a time/place of their choosing. Less important when a bridgehead is smallish but if it was to grow.

As such, if the Germans were mad enough to try, unless they got very lucky, they would be likely to lose both all the invasion force and a lot of the fleet and merchant ships transporting, supplying and defending it.

Steve
 
I think Fishers ideas to land in the Baltic got fairly far along. The Courageous class of ?Battleships/monitors? was built to provide fire support in the shallow Baltic.
Be interesting to think what happens to British carrier aviation if the operation had happened since the Corageous class can't be converted into carriers if they're being used in combat.
 
Both Fiher and Churchill wanted a naval expedition in the Baltic, the idea was discarded only after Churchill's departure from Admiralty. The strategic idea was not so bad, but could be realized only after a decisive defeat of HSF in North Sea, as I wrote in my TL "Churchill's War" https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=145589

Without a decisive defeat of HSF in North Sea, a Baltic expedition would be impossible: Germans could cut the naval expedition out of the main body of the Grand Fleet and isolate it. In case of complete domination of North Sea, a Baltic naval expedition could be possible, but only naval, not amphibious. A landing on German Northern coast is a logistical nightmare in any case. Worst then the unmantionable seamammal :)
 

Markus

Banned
We all know why the Seamammal could not work in WW2-the RAF, the fact the German Navy was far too small, ect. But how about one early on in WW1, either the Germans attacking the UK or the UK attacking Germany.? At the start of WW1 air combat was in it's infancy, and both sides had large navies.

Aside from the Grand Fleet there are six fully equipped and well trained territorrial divisions(5*Inf+1*Cav) guarding the east coast.
 
Maybe if you had the CP defeat France and Russia, then defeat the British Navy and blockade Britain for a few years while devoting immense resources to develop a large enough envasion fleet with support infrastructure you might be able to make it work. Something makes me think Britain would have surrendered before it could be made weak enough to be invaded, you would definitely need extraordinary political circumstances to prevent Britain from making peace. Quite an ASBish proposal.
 
There was a tl on the old board (many years ago I lurked) where someone had them do marine landings at Scapa Flow and Rosynth to capture or burn Royal Navy ships... they were successful due to surprise and but Germany still lost

there was another one where they did a channel crossing after a super successful 2nd ypres battle. i apologize for not having links for these
 

Eurofed

Banned
Maybe if you had the CP defeat France and Russia, then defeat the British Navy and blockade Britain for a few years while devoting immense resources to develop a large enough envasion fleet with support infrastructure you might be able to make it work. Something makes me think Britain would have surrendered before it could be made weak enough to be invaded, you would definitely need extraordinary political circumstances to prevent Britain from making peace. Quite an ASBish proposal.

A plausible way could be: if Italy is CP, the USA are neutral, after France and Russia are vanquished, if the CP can capture the French and Russian fleets instead of them escaping to British ports or being lost to revolution etc., if Britain is unreasonably stubborn about accepting a lenient peace or the CPs about offering one (both rather politically unlikely, but theoretically possible), the combined HSF+RM+captured MN+AH fleet+captured Russian Navy could quite easily overwhelm the RN and blockade Britain into submission. There would be no need for a risky landing, however. A few months of strict blockade would starve Britain into a beggar's peace.
 
It would require a crushing defeat of the RN by the KM at Jutland , and a sufficient strategic window of opportunity which would allow the germans to spare some hundreds of thousands of troops for the invasion. Judging from the ease and comfort with which Haig mass murdered his own countrymen, they would have to face similarly huge numbers of british troops fighting a defensive war on home teritorry. Imagine a reverse 1917 D-Day with contemporary amphibious equipment and tactics and no air support...
 
The HSF could never take on the Royal navy, they would bring in ships from other thearters to protect the Channel. Britain certainly could land in Germany though, but it would take someone with real vision
 
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