Suppose the Germans realize the infeasibility of the Unmentionable Sea Mammal and instead plan a small raid somewhere along the British coast. Is this possible?
Sealion as a Dieppe-style raid
- Thread starter Onkel Willie
- Start date
This was my take on a similar idea
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=121854
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=121854
It would have to be really really small to evade the RN light forces that were roaming the channel EVERY night...!!
So small that, well, whats it going to do? Scare a few people? Or just annoy the local Home Guard..??
Propoganda value, perhaps? Showing that the Kriegsmarine can plant troops on british soil despite the best efforts of the much-vaunted royal navy?
Its still a fairly large gamble, with pretty good odds of a somewhat humiliating failure for rather limited tangible gains, but it might be enough for somebody to try.
Yes, It would be a gamble but the Germans would have to be willing to risk using at least a heavy cruiser or Pocket Battleship to support the raid. The Germans could get some fire support form their long range heavy artillery based in France. It would have to be a quick action designed to inflict some humiliation on the British. It would also require the use of a lot of elite German troops.
I suppose that's one way of getting rid of a Pocket Battleship or Heavy Cruiser you don't want.
First Sealord of the Admiralty , Pound wrote a letter to Churchill on 15th August 1940 reporting that they could not prevent upto 100,000 German troops landing on British Soil in Port to Port invasions. All they could guarantee was to be able to cut of any resupply. Churchill agreed but put the figure at 50,000 troops. It would be up to the British Army to contain these and defeat them with RAF support.
British maritime and naval survillance around the UK waters was next to useless. Historically there were upwards of one thousand vessels in UK waters on any given month and at best their so called survaillance system could count on detecting and intercepting only 1 out of every 7 vessels. By 1941 this had improved somewhat to 1 out of every 4 detected and intercepted, but it would not be until 1943 that the situation would reverse itself so that 3 out of 4 vessels in these waters were intercepted.
In the Norway invasion the Germans were able to position a large number of supply and troop ships in the sealanes undetected days before the April 9th invasion deadline.
British maritime and naval survillance around the UK waters was next to useless. Historically there were upwards of one thousand vessels in UK waters on any given month and at best their so called survaillance system could count on detecting and intercepting only 1 out of every 7 vessels. By 1941 this had improved somewhat to 1 out of every 4 detected and intercepted, but it would not be until 1943 that the situation would reverse itself so that 3 out of 4 vessels in these waters were intercepted.
In the Norway invasion the Germans were able to position a large number of supply and troop ships in the sealanes undetected days before the April 9th invasion deadline.
I'd say rubbish, but I really want to say something stronger....!
Pound was giving a worse case, assuming the Luftwaffe could sink anything that came under them and didnt have a fighter excort - quite untrue at this point in the war, but they didnt realise that.
The numbers were of course based on what they thought Germany had in the way of shipping - again a wisrt case.
But just WHAT is your source for saying the RN light craft were useless? 1 in 7, in the areas of interest, is simply not the case. Not to mention the fact theye were going out as far as just off the French invasion ports to see what was hapenning.
You simply dont realise what a big, juicy (and helpless!) target the proposed invasion fleets were, do you?
Ok Germans, you've planted troops on British soil - now try getting them back!
The RN had about 90 destroyers in home waters, with about 36 based bang on the south coast, and with cruiser support close at hand - when word of the landing gets out where do you think they're all going?
Oh, and if the Kreigmarine does bring a Pocket Battleship out to play, the RN had an R class at Portsmouth.
It's not a Dieppe style raid that the Germans needed - too risky. If it is a success what have you gained - not a lot except propaganda, and a more prepared enemy. But if is not successful - all the Germans gain is 'well it was only a raid', case of minimise risks. A lose - lose position.
However, a more successful option for the Germans would be an analogue of the Bruneval raid (where British troops secured the secrets of the German radar). By making a late evening glider attack on a few British radar sites, with exit via E-Boat. Such an audacious attack might have brought success with out too greater a risk.
Source: S Bungay The most Dangerous Enemy P.377
However, a more successful option for the Germans would be an analogue of the Bruneval raid (where British troops secured the secrets of the German radar). By making a late evening glider attack on a few British radar sites, with exit via E-Boat. Such an audacious attack might have brought success with out too greater a risk.
Source: S Bungay The most Dangerous Enemy P.377
Markus
Banned
Let´s see. ASW trawlers had old 4 inch guns, the Kingfisher class patrol craft news ones, minesweeping trawlers old 6pdrs. That looks good enough to shoot it out with a german naval trawler armed with one 88 or 75mm gun.
Did the Germans ever plan or attempt a raid on Britain similar to the commando raids on St Nazaire, Lofotten Islands and Bruneval. A series of small succesful raids on airfields or Radar installations would have had tremendous propaganda value and might have forced a nervous UK government to keep more forces at home. Meaning no modern tanks, guns or planes for Africa.
Isnt there a conspiracy theory that there actually was a raid? However I think the evidence is very weak and is blamed mostly on vague sounds of explosions and strict secrecy placed on the servicemen in the area about the cause of them.
Such a raid might be able to reach the British shore ubt aside from propaganda points theres little it can accomplish and will face heavy losses in even the best case scenario.
Such a raid might be able to reach the British shore ubt aside from propaganda points theres little it can accomplish and will face heavy losses in even the best case scenario.
After failure of BoB to keep Britain more on it's toes? To divert more RN ships to Channel area? If raids are made together with E-boats and offensive mining they might have some minor effect upon RN destroyer strength which was already being attrited at rapid pace in 1940-1941. Certainly not war-winning measure, but might be useful in sense of keeping more British troops in Britain.
This is pretty much what I had in mind for my thread, a demonstration to try and sap morale. Unless reinforced these troops were lost, and the cost of reinforcing them would be prohibitive. But as a propaganda move against both the UK and the US it would have some effect (but effective is quite another story...).