Subject: Petropavolvsk (Preview / Prologue) Date: 17 Dec 2000 05:11:13 GMT From: Douglas Hayden Organization: Akademia Pana Kleksa, Public Access Uni* Site Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if Just tossing out a short preview of the ATL I'm working on.... 12 April 1904 Russian Fortifications, just outside of Port Arthur Seaman Dmitri Stefanovitch was not happy. April in China was warmer than back home, but at night and next to the seashore, well - it was like Vladivostok all over again. Seaman Yuri Ivanovitch was the usual third shift lookout, but he had just returned from shore leave back at the port with a bad case of something disgusting and wasn't available for tonight's lookout watch. Dmitri, the usual second watch lookout, now had to cover both his own and the third watch. "You're far better than that drunken bastard anyways," the duty officer had said. It was of little consolation to young Dmitri. The seaman pulled up his spyglass again, nothing unusual in the Roadstead for this time of night. Except... that's odd. Dmitri rubbed his eyes and looked through the lens again, yes there it was again. Something was approaching the harbor. "Lietenant? Were we expecting any traffic tonight?" The watch officer stepped towards the seaman gingerly, Lietenant Krapanovitch was not by any means an old man, but he was hardly a hardy one either. "No, nothing here on my sheet," he replied. "There's something out there," Dmitri said, raising the telescope. "There, there it is again. Something -is- moving out there." The Lietenant raised his own scope and scanned the horizon. He saw nothing out of the ordinary. If radioed for the searchlights and gunfire now, Admiral Makarov and every high-ranking official in the city would be asking why. Shooting at ghosts would -not- make a good explanation. However, Dmitri Stefanovitch had the best eyesight and attitude of the entire detachment. If he -did- see something... "Kapitan? Lietenant Krapanovitch. There's something out on the Roadstead. I understand, sir. But I wouldn't put it beyond those sneaky slanteyes..." --- 13 April 1904 Admiral's Quarters, IJNS Mikasa Tai-sho (Admiral) Togo Heihachiro rubbed his eyes. It was a brilliant plan - send in the destroyers under the cover of night to drop mines on the Roadstead, lure out the Russian fleet with his cruisers, then pummel them with the Imperial battle line before watching them detonate on the mines blocking their harbor entrance. However, as the Admiral knew all too true, no plan survives first contact with the enemy. "How many ships did we lose, Chu-sa?" Togo's aide flatly read from the report, "None, sir. Coastal gunfire was ineffective and the Russian fleet failed to catch up to our destroyers. However, no mines were laid, and as of this time, the status of the Russian fleet is unknown." Togo nodded solemnly and turned to a table covered with a map of the Yellow Sea. Somewhere in that huge splotch of blue, Stefan Makarov and his five serviceable battleships still lived. As long as Retvisan and Tsarevitch were still recovering from the initial attack on Port Arthur, the Tai-sho had a slight advantage in ships of the line. But for how long? All he could do now was wait, and plan again. "Another time, another time." ---------- Doug Hayden haydendj@apk.net St. Dogbert's School of Worshipper Fleecing ---------- Dilbert: Do you think you might be abusing your power? Wally: What would be the other reasons to have power? -- Scott Adams Subject: Re: Petropavolvsk (Preview / Prologue) Date: 17 Dec 2000 05:14:29 GMT From: congyoglas@aol.comgentboss (President Chester A. Arthur) Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 Going to be interesting: The Russian Navy in this era was really, really, really _bad_. Have you heard of the Dogger Bank incident? Russian battleships mistook British fishing vessels for Japanese ships...in the _Baltic Sea._ OTOH, the Russo-Japanese War was a reasonably near-run thing anyway, and if the Japanese fleet is blowing up Russian battleships, they can't be assisting attacks into Manchuria. President Chester A. Arthur, who is the very model of a 19th century brigadier general Subject: Re: Petropavolvsk (Preview / Prologue) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 10:51:58 GMT From: Jussi Jalonen Organization: Deja.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 In article <20001217001429.03951.00005414@ng-ct1.aol.com>, congyoglas@aol.comgentboss (President Chester A. Arthur) wrote: > Have you heard of the Dogger Bank incident? Russian battleships > mistook British fishing vessels for Japanese ships...in the _Baltic > Sea._ North Sea, I believe :-) Cheers, Jalonen Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Subject: Re: Petropavolvsk (Preview / Prologue) Date: 17 Dec 2000 19:54:11 GMT From: congyoglas@aol.comgentboss (President Chester A. Arthur) Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 >Subject: Re: Petropavolvsk (Preview / Prologue) >From: Jussi Jalonen jj58679@kielo.uta.fi >Date: Sun, Dec 17, 2000 6:51 AM >Message-id: <91i5sd$h64$1@nnrp1.deja.com> > > >North Sea, I believe :-) Ah, they're all part of the same ocean anyway. =D President Chester A. Arthur, who is the very model of a 19th century brigadier general Subject: Re: Petropavolvsk (Preview / Prologue) Date: 18 Dec 2000 05:29:53 GMT From: Douglas Hayden Organization: Akademia Pana Kleksa, Public Access Uni* Site Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 On 17 Dec 2000 05:14:29 GMT, President Chester A. Arthur mangled some electrons and produced this: : Going to be interesting: The Russian Navy in this era was really, really, : really _bad_. : Have you heard of the Dogger Bank incident? Russian battleships mistook British : fishing vessels for Japanese ships...in the _Baltic Sea._ : OTOH, the Russo-Japanese War was a reasonably near-run thing anyway, and if the : Japanese fleet is blowing up Russian battleships, they can't be assisting : attacks into Manchuria. I should've made the POD a little clearer... Stepan Makarov was the Russian equivalent of Togo and Dewey, having earned his reputation against the Turks almost 30 years previous. With his almost un-Russian aggressiveness, Makarov's arrival to straighten out the mess in the Far East was an instant morale boost. OTL, Makarov's flagship nailed a mine in the Roadstead and went up like the Maine. His successor, Wigeft, sat in Port Arthur until the Japanese -Army- started shelling his ships, then he tried to flee for Vladivostok and promtply lost the entire Russian Far East Fleet. (Note, this was before Tsushima, which involved the Second Pacific nee Baltic Fleet.) ATL, Makarov and his flagship are still around. Makarov was gunning for an adventure with the Japanese even before the Baltic reinforcements arrived. This are going to get a lot more interesting, not only in the Far East, but in the future of an increasingly unstable Russia... ---------- Doug Hayden haydendj@apk.net St. Dogbert's School of Worshipper Fleecing ---------- Dilbert: Do you think you might be abusing your power? Wally: What would be the other reasons to have power? -- Scott Adams Subject: Re: Petropavolvsk (Preview / Prologue) Date: 18 Dec 2000 08:44:01 GMT From: jsbassior@aol.com (Jordan S. Bassior) Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 Doug Hayden said: >ATL, Makarov and his flagship are still around. Makarov was gunning for >an adventure with the Japanese even before the Baltic reinforcements >arrived. This are going to get a lot more interesting, not only in the >Far East, but in the future of an increasingly unstable Russia... Sounds to me like the Russians could win the Russo-Japanese War. The Japanese forces on land were totally dependent upon a maritime supply line that a single bad naval reverse would have cut, and with Makarov on the job, such a reverse would have been quite possible. -- Sincerely Yours, Jordan -- "To urge the preparation of defence is not to assert the imminence of war. On the contrary, if war were imminent, preparations for defense would be too late." (Churchill, 1934) -- Subject: Re: Petropavolvsk (Preview / Prologue) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 22:20:11 -0800 From: Conrad Hodson Organization: Oregon Public Networking Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 On 17 Dec 2000, President Chester A. Arthur wrote: > Going to be interesting: The Russian Navy in this era was really, really, > really _bad_. > > Have you heard of the Dogger Bank incident? Russian battleships mistook British > fishing vessels for Japanese ships...in the _Baltic Sea._ > > OTOH, the Russo-Japanese War was a reasonably near-run thing anyway, and if the > Japanese fleet is blowing up Russian battleships, they can't be assisting > attacks into Manchuria. Uh, they didn't anyway. At least, I can't recall any of the IJN's major warships that had wheels. Not sure what you were trying to say, but the Japanese Navy's assistance to the Army consisted of keeping the Russian Navy from cutting its supply lines between Japan and Korea. The only thing the Army did that was near the sea was besiege Port Arthur, and the Russian fleet was _right there_. The IJN's role vis-a-vis the Army campaign was strategic, not tactical--the Army's Manchurian campaign was mostly fought as far from the sea as the Battle of Gettysburg. Conrad Hodson Subject: Re: Petropavolvsk (Preview / Prologue) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 10:20:31 GMT From: Jussi Jalonen Organization: Deja.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 , 3 In article , Conrad Hodson wrote: > The only thing the Army did that was near the sea was besiege Port > Arthur, and the Russian fleet was _right there_. The IJN's role vis- > a-vis the Army campaign was strategic, not tactical--the Army's > Manchurian campaign was mostly fought as far from the sea as the > Battle of Gettysburg. And on the land, Japanese forces followed quite uninnovative tactics... rather than directing their attacks against the Russian railwaylines, they decided to bang their heads against the fortified defences. With any luck, the officers of Grand-Duchy of Finland will score big on this ATL. This time General Oskar Ferdinand Gripenberg will win the Battle of Sandepu (OTL he lost it, because Kuropatkin failed to provide the promised reinforcements) Of course, without the Russian defeat in the Far East... well... Cheers, Jalonen Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Subject: Re: Petropavolvsk (Preview / Prologue) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 10:54:14 GMT From: Jussi Jalonen Organization: Deja.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 Oh, this is going to be interesting. Please continue. Cheers, Jalonen Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Subject: Re: Petropavolvsk (Preview / Prologue) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 07:09:36 GMT From: syd_webb@my-deja.com Organization: Deja.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 In article <91i60l$h6e$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, Jussi Jalonen wrote: > Oh, this is going to be interesting. Please continue. Yup. By the time this war is over Japanese will be a language only spoken in Hell. Although if the Japanese sneak attack is unsuccessful in this ATL p'raps the Russkies can be more broad-minded. - Syd Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ] Subject: Re: Petropavolvsk (Preview / Prologue) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 17:44:16 GMT From: daniel_macgregor@my-deja.com Organization: Deja.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 In article <91hhth$17q$1@plonk.apk.net>, Douglas Hayden wrote: > Just tossing out a short preview of the ATL I'm working on.... > > 12 April 1904 > Russian Fortifications, just outside of Port Arthur > > Seaman Dmitri Stefanovitch was not happy. April in China was warmer than > back home, Port Arthur, by the way, isn't geographically that far away from Vladivostok. I live in a climate (Chicago) similar to that of north China (look at the upper Midwest on a climatic map), and can assure you that April in Chicago isn't all that warm. I recall an article published in "The New Republic" about 15 years ago about why Chicago was the greatest American city. In it, the author teases a Russian immigrant to Chicago, saying she moved here because our climate reminded her of Russia. She told the author that it was colder in Chicago than it is in Moscow or St. Petersburg. Just some anecdotal evidence fdor you. Daniel MacGregor Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/