Subject: Dynastic Egypt South Africa. Date: 09 Mar 2001 06:32:35 GMT From: congyoglas@aol.comgentboss (President Chester A. Arthur) Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if 1260 B.C: A minor son of Ramses the Great (let's call him Seti the Navigator) founds a minor religious cult that says the gods live to the south instead of to the west. (Probably bungling Egyptian theology here, but bear with me.) Seti is somewhat charismatic and soon assembles a reasonably large following in Thebes, where Seti lives. Ramses, acutely concious of the mishaps religious zealots have caused Egypt in the past, but not wanting to kill the kid, gives him three ships, lets him pack them with a few hundred followers, and essentially tells him to sail away and not come back. Seti's ships sail south, and south again, making contact again and trading with the civilizations of East Africa, Punt and Nubia and such (if Nubia had a seacoast), until finally, they find, at the southern tip of Africa, their home, a place of Mediterrean climate and easily intimidated natives, *Significantly Upper Egypt. Seti settles the place with his few hundred, declares himself his father's governor, and sends the ships back for more people. Ramses is only too glad to do that, it gets Seti gone, and he can use it for other things, exiling troublesome nobles and the like. By 1200 B.C., there are 2000 Egyptians living in SUE, centered around Seti's dynasty, but loyal to the pharoah back in Egypt. At the fall of the 20th dynasty, around 1075 B.C., the Southern Egyptians, with a population of around 100,000, scattered around the Cape, good harvesting areas, and sites for gold and diamond mines, declare their independance. Now what? President Chester A. Arthur, who's always invading the UK... Subject: Re: Dynastic Egypt South Africa. Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 10:29:36 -0800 From: Alan Kellogg Organization: CTSnet Internet Services Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 In article <20010309013235.04337.00001175@ng-fi1.aol.com>, congyoglas@aol.comgentboss (President Chester A. Arthur) wrote: > 1260 B.C: (snip) Interesting. I do have a few questions. The local wildlife. How do the colonists deal with such? How do they handle rhinos, lions, elephants, and cape buffalo? What about the Khoisan? How are they treated? What do they think of the Egyptians. Then you have the local climate and weather. South Africa is a much rainier place than Egypt. Add in the lack of a great river, replaced with a number of smaller coastal streams. Would this lead to a scattering of coastal settlements and the fragmenting of Colonial Egyptian society? A few things to think about. Alan -- You can't be a figment of my imagination, I'd've done a better job Subject: Re: Dynastic Egypt South Africa. Date: 10 Mar 2001 01:07:46 GMT From: congyoglas@aol.comgentboss (President Chester A. Arthur) Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 >Subject: Re: Dynastic Egypt South Africa. >From: Alan Kellogg mythusmage@cts.com >Date: 3/9/2001 1:29 PM Eastern Standard Time >Message-id: > >In article <20010309013235.04337.00001175@ng-fi1.aol.com>, >congyoglas@aol.comgentboss (President Chester A. Arthur) wrote: > >> 1260 B.C: > >(snip) > >Interesting. I do have a few questions. > >The local wildlife. How do the colonists deal with such? How do they >handle rhinos, lions, elephants, and cape buffalo? > A culture that can grow up surrounded by hippos and crocs probably ain't skeerda them...the younger sons of the aristocracy go hunt them for food and, the peasants get eaten by them. >What about the Khoisan? How are they treated? What do they think of the >Egyptians. > Slaves. >Then you have the local climate and weather. South Africa is a much >rainier place than Egypt. > True, it'll take a big conversion of not so much their agriculture, but the way they thought about agriculture. OTOH, Mediterrean crops should grow well there, and the Egypt of the era was much rainier than the current one. >Add in the lack of a great river, replaced with a number of smaller >coastal streams. Would this lead to a scattering of coastal settlements >and the fragmenting of Colonial Egyptian society? > Mm, interesting...I gave them a common religion to hold them together in the first few years, but that won't last long. >A few things to think about. President Chester A. Arthur, who's always invading the UK... Subject: Re: Dynastic Egypt South Africa. Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 15:34:32 +1000 From: Rod Bray Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 The idea of an Egyptian colony on the east coast of Africa is not farfetched and may have some basis in fact. Herodotus mentions a 3 year circumnavigation of Africa that involved stopping to plant and harvest crops. "Herodotus: The Histories, c. 430 B.C., Book IV.42-43: For my part I am astonished that men should ever have divided Libya, Asia, and Europe as they have, for they are exceedingly unequal. Europe extends the entire length of the other two, and for breadth will not even (as I think) bear to be compared to them. As for Libya, we know it to be washed on all sides by the sea, except where it is attached to Asia. This discovery was first made by Necos, the Egyptian king, who on desisting from the canal which he had begun between the Nile and the Arabian gulf [i.e., the Red Sea], sent to sea a number of ships manned by Phoenicians, with orders to make for the Pillars of Hercules, and return to Egypt through them, and by the Mediterranean. The Phoenicians took their departure from Egypt by way of the Erythraean sea, and so sailed into the southern ocean. When autumn came, they went ashore, wherever they might happen to be, and having sown a tract of land with corn, waited until the grain was fit to cut. Having reaped it, they again set sail; and thus it came to pass that two whole years went by, and it was not till the third year that they doubled the Pillars of Hercules, and made good their voyage home. On their return, they declared - I for my part do not believe them, but perhaps others may - that in sailing round Libya they had the sun upon their right hand. In this way was the extent of Libya first discovered" Cheers. Subject: Re: Dynastic Egypt South Africa. Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 21:27:43 -0800 From: Alan Kellogg Organization: CTSnet Internet Services Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 In article <20010309200746.04552.00002295@ng-mq1.aol.com>, congyoglas@aol.comgentboss (President Chester A. Arthur) wrote: > >Subject: Re: Dynastic Egypt South Africa. > >From: Alan Kellogg mythusmage@cts.com > >Date: 3/9/2001 1:29 PM Eastern Standard Time > >Message-id: > > > >In article <20010309013235.04337.00001175@ng-fi1.aol.com>, > >congyoglas@aol.comgentboss (President Chester A. Arthur) wrote: > > > >> 1260 B.C: > > > >(snip) > > > >Interesting. I do have a few questions. > > > >The local wildlife. How do the colonists deal with such? How do they > >handle rhinos, lions, elephants, and cape buffalo? > > > > A culture that can grow up surrounded by hippos and crocs probably ain't > skeerda them...the younger sons of the aristocracy go hunt them for food > and > sport, the peasants get eaten by them. > > >What about the Khoisan? How are they treated? What do they think of the > >Egyptians. > > > > Slaves. > > >Then you have the local climate and weather. South Africa is a much > >rainier place than Egypt. > > > > True, it'll take a big conversion of not so much their agriculture, but > the way > they thought about agriculture. OTOH, Mediterrean crops should grow well > there, > and the Egypt of the era was much rainier than the current one. > > >Add in the lack of a great river, replaced with a number of smaller > >coastal streams. Would this lead to a scattering of coastal settlements > >and the fragmenting of Colonial Egyptian society? > > > > Mm, interesting...I gave them a common > religion to hold them together in the first few years, but that won't > last > long. > > >A few things to think about. The introduction of Egyptian crops could lead to the adoption of said crops by the Khoisan. Much as the real world Khoisan adopted cattle from the Bantu. Possibly leading to the establishment of Khoisan settlements throughout southern Africa. With the result that by the time the Bantu tribes spread south from the Sahel they'll find themselves faced with some serious opposition. Along with Egyptian agriculture the Khoisan also adopt Egyptian religion and Culture, possibly leading to a Khoisan Dynasty or two ruling the various Egyptian states. Alan -- You can't be a figment of my imagination, I'd've done a better job Subject: Re: Dynastic Egypt South Africa. Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 11:37:24 -0600 From: Bucky Rea Organization: Houston Area League of PC Users, Inc. Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 President Chester A. Arthur wrote: > Now what? Within 10 generations, expect full amalgamation with the locals. Something very much like this happened to a ship load of merchant-explorers from pre-Colombian China. They got stranded in southeastern Africa, had a little culture for a spell, then ended up married into the neighborhood's gene pool. Some Asiatic characteristics can still be found in the faces of locals if you look up the right National Geographic back issue. But cultures with isolated technology levels don't tend to last long without either infecting or deviating to the tech levels of their neighbors. Subject: Re: Dynastic Egypt South Africa. Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 21:21:12 +0000 From: philh@comuno.freeserve.co.uk (phil hunt) Organization: Comuno Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 On Sat, 10 Mar 2001 11:37:24 -0600, Bucky Rea wrote: >President Chester A. Arthur wrote: > >> Now what? > > >Within 10 generations, expect full amalgamation with the >locals. Something very much like this happened to a ship >load of merchant-explorers from pre-Colombian China. They >got stranded in southeastern Africa, had a little culture >for a spell, then ended up married into the neighborhood's >gene pool. Some Asiatic characteristics can still be found >in the faces of locals if you look up the right National >Geographic back issue. But cultures with isolated technology >levels don't tend to last long without either infecting or >deviating to the tech levels of their neighbors. Most Xhosa have white ancestors, due to survivors of shipwrecks in theri gene pool. -- *****[ Phil Hunt ***** philh@comuno.freeserve.co.uk ]***** "Mommy, make the nasty penguin go away." -- Jim Allchin, MS head of OS development, regarding open source software (paraphrased).