Subject: Castile-Portugal Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 09:36:53 GMT From: auswegian@my-deja.com Organization: Deja.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if PoD 1469. The crowds cheered at the marriage of Princess Isabella of Castile to King Alfonso of Portugal. The two great Iberian nations have taken another step closer to unification... What effects does this have on the future? Does the Inquisition happen, or does Pope Sixtus IV not give in to pressure? Does Aragon conquer the Moorish lands, or Castile-Portugal, or do they manage to hold on? Do Castile and Portugal fully amalgamate when Isabella succeeds the throne, or does it fragment in future generations? I assume Columbus won't get any support from either Castile-Portugal or Aragon, who does he turn to, the English? Perhaps a joint expedition to the New World by Cabot and Columbus? The treaty of Tordesillas would be non-existant, C-P would be trying to go east (they may discover the new world via Brazil) and Aragon would likely be paying more attention to it's Mediterranean possessions more than anything else. David K. Tormsen Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ]Subject: Re: Castile-Portugal Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 16:49:04 GMT From: raharris1973@my-deja.com Organization: Deja.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 In article <91fd3l$jhc$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, auswegian@my-deja.com wrote: > > > PoD 1469. The crowds cheered at the marriage of Princess Isabella of > Castile to King Alfonso of Portugal. The two great Iberian nations have > taken another step closer to unification... > > What effects does this have on the future? Does the Inquisition happen, > or does Pope Sixtus IV not give in to pressure? Does Aragon conquer the > Moorish lands, or Castile-Portugal, or do they manage to hold on? Do > Castile and Portugal fully amalgamate when Isabella succeeds the > throne, or does it fragment in future generations? > > I assume Columbus won't get any support from either Castile-Portugal or > Aragon, who does he turn to, the English? Perhaps a joint expedition to > the New World by Cabot and Columbus? The treaty of Tordesillas would be > non-existant, C-P would be trying to go east (they may discover the new > world via Brazil) and Aragon would likely be paying more attention to > it's Mediterranean possessions more than anything else. > > David K. Tormsen Thanks for the re-post, didn't get to respond on time. Here's some initial thoughts: The whole dynamic creating the Hapsburg empire as we know it is changed. You don't have the same Spanish Empire-Holy Roman Empire combination. This would provide France more of a chance to dominate, although it may be effectively balanced by a broad coalition of other states. The balance of power coalitions would be against the French for several centuries in a row and never against Habsburg threat as in OTL. Castile-Portugal will combine the former's military skill and religious fervor along with the latter's maritime and trading skill. World-wide, this alternate "Spain" probably, will be like a Portugal on steroids. It will invest in the Cape route to India, set up fortied trading posts around Africa and India and the East Indies. In this TL, however, there will be an expanded military and settler presence in the African colonies, and an earlier attempt to actually conquer some chunks of outlying Indian territory. The East Indies will be taken over, and the "Spanish" will work to convert the pagan and Hindu natives, and will come into conflict with Muslim natives--- some of the islands end up with a similar cultural mix that the Philippines has. Of all New World territories "Spain" will be most likely to have Brazil. Closer to home this "Castile-Portugal" will conquer Granada, and may even conquer some of northern Morrocco, although this direction will become somewhat less interesting after the Indies profits start to pour in. Aragon will be most interested in its Italian possesions and may take parts of Algeria and Tunisia near the coast. Unless Alfonso is very against it, and he outlives Isabella, the Inquisition probably still happens, this Spain-Portugal will be a wealthy and powerful nation that the Popes will not want to dismiss. As for Columbus, possibly he could funded by France or the England of Henry VII. Or he may not be funded by anyone and the discovery of the Americas put off for 20 plus years. If the Americas are not discovered by the Columbus-to-Caribbean route, they may be discovered via Cabot's route to Newfoundland or by the Cabral route to Brazil when someone gets blown off course trying to go around the Cape. An initial landing in Newfoundland or Brazil could slow down interest in the Americas considerably, as there would not be as much precious metals, and Mexico would be so much further away. > > Sent via Deja.com > http://www.deja.com/ > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Subject: Re: Castile-Portugal Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2000 02:35:31 GMT From: auswegian@my-deja.com Organization: Deja.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 > > Thanks for the re-post, didn't get to respond on time. Heh heh, thanks for the reply, I thought I was going to have to resort to commenting on Operation Sealion to get a response ;-) > Here's some initial thoughts: > > The whole dynamic creating the Hapsburg empire as we know it is changed. > You don't have the same Spanish Empire-Holy Roman Empire combination. > This would provide France more of a chance to dominate, although it may > be effectively balanced by a broad coalition of other states. The > balance of power coalitions would be against the French for several > centuries in a row and never against Habsburg threat as in OTL. > > Castile-Portugal will combine the former's military skill and religious > fervor along with the latter's maritime and trading skill. World- wide, > this alternate "Spain" probably, will be like a Portugal on steroids. > It will invest in the Cape route to India, set up fortied trading posts > around Africa and India and the East Indies. In this TL, however, there > will be an expanded military and settler presence in the African > colonies, Portugeuese South Africa? > and an earlier attempt to actually conquer some chunks of > outlying Indian territory. The East Indies will be taken over, and the > "Spanish" will work to convert the pagan and Hindu natives, and will > come into conflict with Muslim natives--- some of the islands end up > with a similar cultural mix that the Philippines has. Of all New World > territories "Spain" will be most likely to have Brazil. > > Closer to home this "Castile-Portugal" will conquer Granada, and may > even conquer some of northern Morrocco, although this direction will > become somewhat less interesting after the Indies profits start to pour > in. Aragon will be most interested in its Italian possesions and may > take parts of Algeria and Tunisia near the coast. How powerful would Aragon be as a nation? Who did you think it effect? Perhaps a good old Aragonian/Ottoman war for control of the Mediterranean? > > Unless Alfonso is very against it, and he outlives Isabella, the > Inquisition probably still happens, this Spain-Portugal will be a > wealthy and powerful nation that the Popes will not want to dismiss. > > As for Columbus, possibly he could funded by France or the England of > Henry VII. Or he may not be funded by anyone and the discovery of the > Americas put off for 20 plus years. How about this, the Inquisition is put off for a while, just until 1495 or something. Columbus gets no help from Neo-Portugal, or any power, and his voyage is eventually funded by Jewish loaners. When the Inquisition finally gets going, some of the Jews escape to the newly discovered Americas (perhaps only the Carribean) and set up some small colonies there, outside of the reach of the Inquisition. > If the Americas are not discovered > by the Columbus-to-Caribbean route, they may be discovered via Cabot's > route to Newfoundland or by the Cabral route to Brazil when someone gets > blown off course trying to go around the Cape. An initial landing in > Newfoundland or Brazil could slow down interest in the Americas > considerably, as there would not be as much precious metals, and Mexico > would be so much further away. I'm thinking...will the Neo-Portugeuse empire here last longer than the Spanish one of OTL? It wouldn't have the huge influx of gold that Spain did but would have very healthy trade routes going East. Hmm...I look into my crystal ball...I see a war in Egypt following a European power attempting to build the Suez canal which threatens Neo- Portugeuse trade interests... Hey, England and Portugal always had a good relationship, didn't they? If the English discover Newfoundland, they might do their own version of the Treaty of Tordesillas, England gets the West, Neo-Portugal gets the East. David K. Tormsen Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Subject: Re: Castile-Portugal Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 12:21:14 GMT From: Ismael Organization: Deja.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 , 3 In article <91h8pj$tb2$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, auswegian@my-deja.com wrote: > How powerful would Aragon be as a nation? Who did you think it effect? > > Perhaps a good old Aragonian/Ottoman war for control of the > Mediterranean? It depends on the result of the Italian Wars: if Aragon is not backed by Castile, a French victory is possible, and there would be a French- Ottoman war instead. [...] > I'm thinking...will the Neo-Portugeuse empire here last longer than the > Spanish one of OTL? It wouldn't have the huge influx of gold that Spain > did but would have very healthy trade routes going East. Well, not influx of gold means no hyperinflaction, no economical crisis, a more productive economy ... and, as Neo-Portugal does not have possesions in Flanders & Italy, they don't need the gold to fund military poerations there. Probably it would be possitive, in the long term. [...] > Hey, England and Portugal always had a good relationship, didn't they? > If the English discover Newfoundland, they might do their own version > of the Treaty of Tordesillas, England gets the West, Neo-Portugal gets > the East. Well, if Neo-Portugal has already discovered Brazil, perhaps a division North & South would be more likely. Ismael Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Subject: Re: Castile-Portugal Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 00:48:32 GMT From: raharris1973@my-deja.com Organization: Deja.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 , 3 And depending whether its France or England funding the first explorers to the south of us, the land south of the Rio Grande becomes known as Mehiqueaux or Mayhicko. > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Subject: Re: Castile-Portugal Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 20:27:18 +0100 From: elodan@wanadoo.fr (Denis Trenque) Organization: Wanadoo, l'internet avec France Telecom Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 wrote: > And depending whether its France or England funding the first explorers > to the south of us, the land south of the Rio Grande becomes known as > Mehiqueaux or Mayhicko. > > > > > Sent via Deja.com > http://www.deja.com/ If colonized by muslims, possibly the Sultanate of America. Is Merica/Mejica/Mexica a word in arabic? Denis Trenque Subject: Re: Castile-Portugal Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 04:16:02 GMT From: DF (not@home.yet) Reply-To: nobody@home.yet Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 , 3 auswegian@my-deja.com wrote: >Hmm...I look into my crystal ball...I see a war in Egypt following a European >power attempting to build the Suez canal which threatens Neo-Portugeuse trade >interests... Funded by Genoese merchants, of course. >Hey, England and Portugal always had a good relationship, didn't they? If the >English discover Newfoundland, they might do their own version of the Treaty >of Tordesillas, England gets the West, Neo-Portugal gets the East. Or a north/south split of the entire hemisphere. Maybe it works out so that further exploration ends up with the Aztecs conquered by the English, while the Incan gold/silver goes to Neo-Portugal. I'm seeing a very unhappy France in here somewhere. Subject: Re: Castile-Portugal Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 12:14:23 GMT From: Ismael Organization: Deja.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 In article <91fd3l$jhc$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, auswegian@my-deja.com wrote: > > > PoD 1469. The crowds cheered at the marriage of Princess Isabella of > Castile to King Alfonso of Portugal. The two great Iberian nations have > taken another step closer to unification... ... and king Enrique IV marry his daughter Joanna with Ferdinand of Aragon. There is civil war in Castile, won by the Aragonese, of course, so Castile & Aragon are united under the "Catholic kings", Ferdinand & Joanna. Latter Chronicles would state Isabella wasn't daughter of the king, but of his comstable Alvaro de Luna: she will be known by following generations as "la Lunatica". A guy called Columbus went later to the Portuguese Court, but he didn't get support, and went to Castile-Aragon, where ..... :-) [...] > I assume Columbus won't get any support from either Castile-Portugal or > Aragon, who does he turn to, the English? Probably France: when Columbus thought Catholic kings (Ferdinand & Isabella, now) wouldn't support him, he decided to go to the French Court. He received the news of the change of mind of the kings during the trip to France. Ismael Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Subject: Re: Castile-Portugal Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 22:57:45 GMT From: auswegian@my-deja.com Organization: Deja.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 In article <91kv2t$fvv$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, Ismael wrote: > In article <91fd3l$jhc$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, > auswegian@my-deja.com wrote: > > > > > > PoD 1469. The crowds cheered at the marriage of Princess Isabella of > > Castile to King Alfonso of Portugal. The two great Iberian nations > have > > taken another step closer to unification... > > ... and king Enrique IV marry his daughter Joanna with Ferdinand of > Aragon. There is civil war in Castile, won by the Aragonese, of course, > so Castile & Aragon are united under the "Catholic kings", Ferdinand & > Joanna. Latter Chronicles would state Isabella wasn't daughter of the > king, but of his comstable Alvaro de Luna: she will be known by > following generations as "la Lunatica". A guy called Columbus went > later to the Portuguese Court, but he didn't get support, and went to > Castile-Aragon, where ..... :-) > Oh, that spoils it...I want Neo-Portugal! ;-) > [...] > > > I assume Columbus won't get any support from either Castile-Portugal > or > > Aragon, who does he turn to, the English? > > Probably France: when Columbus thought Catholic kings (Ferdinand & > Isabella, now) wouldn't support him, he decided to go to the French > Court. He received the news of the change of mind of the kings during > the trip to France. Well, if the French were to say Non, he would probably just go with Cabot...or not? David K. Tormsen Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Subject: Re: Castile-Portugal Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 10:00:52 GMT From: Ismael Organization: Deja.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 , 3 In article <91m4p3$i8q$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, auswegian@my-deja.com wrote: > > > I assume Columbus won't get any support from either Castile- Portugal > > or > > > Aragon, who does he turn to, the English? > > > > Probably France: when Columbus thought Catholic kings (Ferdinand & > > Isabella, now) wouldn't support him, he decided to go to the French > > Court. He received the news of the change of mind of the kings during > > the trip to France. > > Well, if the French were to say Non, he would probably just go with > Cabot...or not? only if Cabot waits for him :-) Ismael Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Subject: Re: Castile-Portugal Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2000 10:44:51 GMT From: auswegian@my-deja.com Organization: Deja.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 In article <91nbkh$fna$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, Ismael wrote: > In article <91m4p3$i8q$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, > auswegian@my-deja.com wrote: > > > > > I assume Columbus won't get any support from either Castile- > Portugal > > > or > > > > Aragon, who does he turn to, the English? > > > > > > Probably France: when Columbus thought Catholic kings (Ferdinand & > > > Isabella, now) wouldn't support him, he decided to go to the French > > > Court. He received the news of the change of mind of the kings > during > > > the trip to France. > > > > Well, if the French were to say Non, he would probably just go with > > Cabot...or not? > > only if Cabot waits for him :-) > How do you think the expedition will go? Will Cabot/Columbus become Englands great exploration team, perhaps? David K. Tormsen Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Subject: Re: Castile-Portugal Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 19:55:28 GMT From: b_munro@my-deja.com Organization: Deja.com Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 In article <91ne73$heh$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, auswegian@my-deja.com wrote: > > > > How do you think the expedition will go? Will Cabot/Columbus become > Englands great exploration team, perhaps? > No, but their standup act is hilarious.. Bruce Munro > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Subject: Re: Castile-Portugal Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 14:13:32 -0800 From: Arthur Chenin Organization: University & Community College System of Nevada Newsgroups: soc.history.what-if References: 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 > > > How do you think the expedition will go? Will Cabot/Columbus become > > Englands great exploration team, perhaps? > > > No, but their standup act is hilarious.. Heeeyyy Caaaaboooooottt!!!!!