XXth C: Discussion Thread

[Justin Pickard]

I'm glad this idea has been resurrected. Count me in.

Do all subsequent divergences have to stem from these intial changes, or are we allowed to be slightly more chaotic?

Kaiser Wilhelm III of Germany would be roughly 19 when he ascended the German throne. Could we have him marry the opera singer Geraldine Farrar at some point in the next couple of years? I'm thinking something with either Edward and Wallis potential, or perhaps something more along the lines of Prince Rainier and Grace Kelly. Just a thought.

 

[Justin Pickard]

Kaiser Wilhelm III of Germany would be roughly 19 when he ascended the German throne. Could we have him marry the opera singer Geraldine Farrar at some point in the next couple of years, say 1903 / 1904? I'm thinking something with either Edward and Wallis potential, or perhaps something more along the lines of Prince Rainier and Grace Kelly.

 

[Justin Pickard]

Kaiser Wilhelm III of Germany would be roughly 19 when he ascended the German throne. Could we have him marry the opera singer Geraldine Farrar at some point in the next couple of years, say 1903 / 1904? I'm thinking something with either Edward and Wallis potential, or perhaps something more along the lines of Prince Rainier and Grace Kelly. Just a thought.

 

[Glen]

Thought that it had to be after January 1, 1900?

Nope, POD is allowed starting January 1, 1901. We're using the 'official' twentieth century, not the zeroist version. Though I did think about it....

Well, they existed. I'm no engineer, but electric cars were competitive, gasoline cars were competitive, and diesel electric locomotives were the standard by the 30's (introduced in 1918). Steam cars were being sold till 1927, so I figure if primitive hybrids can hold out that long against gasoline, they should have matured enough, technologically, to be competitive in certain markets. After that point, they should be able to expand outside of the urban niche.

Anyone have any expertise on this who could speak towards the sophistication of hybrid gas/electric cars at this point in history?

I'll look into it.

I can't wait to see what you come up with!

 

[Glen]

Kaiser Wilhelm III of Germany would be roughly 19 when he ascended the German throne. Could we have him marry the opera singer Geraldine Farrar at some point in the next couple of years, say 1903 / 1904? I'm thinking something with either Edward and Wallis potential, or perhaps something more along the lines of Prince Rainier and Grace Kelly.

Wow, he is going to ascend to the throne at a young age....

So, we might imagine that there would be a lot of pressure for him to marry starting with his coronation in 1901. Throw into that then this beautiful but commoner American with a big ego....hmmm....

What do people think the likelihood of Wilhelm III trying to marry Farrar? It was only a brief affair OTL, but they remained lifelong friends so presumably it was more than just a fling....but would his early ascension make him more or less likely to go the marriage route with her?

And if he does try to marry her, will the German Empire go for it, or will we have a crisis and possible abdication? I don't think there is quite the same set-up as England, as he wouldn't be the head of a church as well, and the woman isn't a divorcee (of course, she's known to not be a virgin either, and she's a commoner).

 

[Glen]

I'm glad this idea has been resurrected. Count me in.

Resurrected?

Do all subsequent divergences have to stem from these intial changes, or are we allowed to be slightly more chaotic?

Absolutely not. Read the first post in this thread or the draft thread for details.

The premise is that we are basically 're-running' history starting at 12:00 AM GMT January 1, 1901. At first, the actual changes are small variations on actions that occured (though some, like an assassin's bullet taking a slightly different course, can be profound), but as we get further out, they will become more and more divergent (but please keep them within plausibility). So you can have independent divergences, or ones that stem from previous divergence, or both.

Kaiser Wilhelm III of Germany would be roughly 19 when he ascended the German throne. Could we have him marry the opera singer Geraldine Farrar at some point in the next couple of years? I'm thinking something with either Edward and Wallis potential, or perhaps something more along the lines of Prince Rainier and Grace Kelly. Just a thought.

Either one would be cool, but we have to make certain it is a small but plausible change. And we have to take the fact that he is ascending to the throne into account. The pressure for him to marry will be racheted up almost immediately. Of course, that pressure will be for him to marry suitable royalty...

So, is he more likely to try and marry Farrar, maybe even as a way to escape the premature pressures being placed upon him, or less likely to even start the affair in the first place?

 

[Glen]

At this moment, I am leaning against having Wilhelm III try to marry Farrar.

First, I suspect that with the added pressure of marrying to produce an heir from the death of his father, not to mention all the butterflies it's going to cause, there is good reason to believe that not only would he not try to marry her (and he didn't in OTL, when there would have been less pressure on him to produce an heir), but that he very well might not even have an affair with her.

Second, if he did try to marry her, I suspect he would have to abdicate, or at the very least disallow their children from inheriting the throne. Don't know that this line is very much fun, and it seems less plausible than other alternatives.

Third, if he did abdicate, Eitel Friedrich would become Kaiser, and I just can't find very much info on him. Not exactly promising for making good Alternate History.

I think Empress Geraldine would be fun, but you need to show how it would happen in this timeline, and if he were to abdicate, what the ramifications would be, which I think would be harder than projecting the ramifications of a Wilhelm III reign.

 

[Glen]

At this moment, I am leaning against having Wilhelm III try to marry Farrar.

First, I suspect that with the added pressure of marrying to produce an heir from the death of his father, not to mention all the butterflies it's going to cause, there is good reason to believe that not only would he not try to marry her (and he didn't in OTL, when there would have been less pressure on him to produce an heir), but that he very well might not even have an affair with her.

Second, if he did try to marry her, I suspect he would have to abdicate, or at the very least disallow their children from inheriting the throne. Don't know that this line is very much fun, and it seems less plausible than other alternatives.

Third, if he did abdicate, Eitel Friedrich would become Kaiser, and I just can't find very much info on him. Not exactly promising for making good Alternate History.

I think Empress Geraldine would be fun, but you need to show how it would happen in this timeline, and if he were to abdicate, what the ramifications would be, which I think would be harder than projecting the ramifications of a Wilhelm III reign.

 

[Justin Pickard]

Resurrected?

Have a nose over... here.

 

[Justin Pickard]

At this moment, I am leaning against having Wilhelm III try to marry Farrar.

First, I suspect that with the added pressure of marrying to produce an heir from the death of his father, not to mention all the butterflies it's going to cause, there is good reason to believe that not only would he not try to marry her (and he didn't in OTL, when there would have been less pressure on him to produce an heir), but that he very well might not even have an affair with her.

Second, if he did try to marry her, I suspect he would have to abdicate, or at the very least disallow their children from inheriting the throne. Don't know that this line is very much fun, and it seems less plausible than other alternatives.

Third, if he did abdicate, Eitel Friedrich would become Kaiser, and I just can't find very much info on him. Not exactly promising for making good Alternate History.

I think Empress Geraldine would be fun, but you need to show how it would happen in this timeline, and if he were to abdicate, what the ramifications would be, which I think would be harder than projecting the ramifications of a Wilhelm III reign.

Well, okay - I can see where you are coming from.

Nevertheless, the guy's only nineteen and he's just become king. His affair with Farrar began in the early 1900s, and in this parallel he wouldn't need his father's approval for the match.

That said, his 43-year-old mother - Augusta Viktoria of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Augustenburg (gotta love those German names, ) - is still firmly in the picture. And she is a woman who is reputed to have loved the arts...

He wouldn't have necessarily had to abdicate. They might not have even needed a morganatic marriage. Whilst not royalty, she was certainly no commoner.

In 1900 she traveled to Berlin, where in 1901 she made a sensational debut at the Royal Opera House in Charles Gounod's Faust. From 1904, after three years with the Royal Opera, there would have been a window where her and the Kaiser could have made their relationship public. Whether they do or not rather depends on what else is going on in Germany in this timeline, I suppose.

 

[Othniel]

At this moment, I am leaning against having Wilhelm III try to marry Farrar.

Good, but your reasons are flawed. See this would be a morganic marriage. It doesn't force abidication but it does prevent the childern of this marriage from gaining any of the titles had by the father.

 

[Glen]

Well, okay - I can see where you are coming from.

Don't give up yet! See what you can dig up, and let's also see what others' opinions are on this.

Nevertheless, the guy's only nineteen and he's just become king. His affair with Farrar began in the early 1900s, and in this parallel he wouldn't need his father's approval for the match.

1901 I think is when they hooked up. But his entire life changes starting in March, when his father dies.

That said, his 43-year-old mother - Augusta Viktoria of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Augustenburg (gotta love those German names, ) - is still firmly in the picture. And she is a woman who is reputed to have loved the arts...

So you're thinking they're going to meet up (and maybe hook-up) regardless? That's reasonable.

He wouldn't have necessarily had to abdicate. They might not have even needed a morganatic marriage. Whilst not royalty, she was certainly no commoner.

Really? I would have thought that anyone not of the nobility would have been categorized as a commoner. And as an American, she certainly isn't nobility. Granted, a lot of aristocrats were marrying Americans in the 20th century, but when it comes to royalty, it might be a 'higher' standard. Does anyone know if he would have had to have a morganic marriage if he married Geraldine Farrar?

In 1900 she traveled to Berlin, where in 1901 she made a sensational debut at the Royal Opera House in Charles Gounod's Faust. From 1904, after three years with the Royal Opera, there would have been a window where her and the Kaiser could have made their relationship public.

I'm not certain that he would be able to hold off marriage that long. Once he took the throne, there'd be a lot of pressure. I'd suggest Wilhelm III is going to need to get married by 1903.

Whether they do or not rather depends on what else is going on in Germany in this timeline, I suppose.

Well, not much different from OTL at this point, I suppose, though perhaps a little more smoothly. Don't know that we get a Venezuela Crisis in this timeline, for example, without Wilhelm II looking for colonies anywhere he can get them.

Anyone else have some opinions on this possible divergence?

 

[Glen]

Well, okay - I can see where you are coming from.

Don't give up yet! See what you can dig up, and let's also see what others' opinions are on this.

Nevertheless, the guy's only nineteen and he's just become king. His affair with Farrar began in the early 1900s, and in this parallel he wouldn't need his father's approval for the match.

1901 I think is when they hooked up. But his entire life changes starting in March, when his father dies.

That said, his 43-year-old mother - Augusta Viktoria of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Augustenburg (gotta love those German names, ) - is still firmly in the picture. And she is a woman who is reputed to have loved the arts...

So you're thinking they're going to meet up (and maybe hook-up) regardless? That's reasonable.

He wouldn't have necessarily had to abdicate. They might not have even needed a morganatic marriage. Whilst not royalty, she was certainly no commoner.

Really? I would have thought that anyone not of the nobility would have been categorized as a commoner. And as an American, she certainly isn't nobility. Granted, a lot of aristocrats were marrying Americans in the 20th century, but when it comes to royalty, it might be a 'higher' standard. Does anyone know if he would have had to have a morganic marriage if he married Geraldine Farrar?

In 1900 she traveled to Berlin, where in 1901 she made a sensational debut at the Royal Opera House in Charles Gounod's Faust. From 1904, after three years with the Royal Opera, there would have been a window where her and the Kaiser could have made their relationship public.

I'm not certain that he would be able to hold off marriage that long. Once he took the throne, there'd be a lot of pressure. I'd suggest Wilhelm III is going to need to get married by 1903.

Whether they do or not rather depends on what else is going on in Germany in this timeline, I suppose.

Well, not much different from OTL at this point, I suppose, though perhaps a little more smoothly. Don't know that we get a Venezuela Crisis in this timeline, for example, without Wilhelm II looking for colonies anywhere he can get them.

Anyone else have some opinions on this possible divergence?

 

[Othniel]

A morganic marriage takes place when someone of a higher station marries someone of a lower station. I believe royalty has to marry dukes and duchesses or above...

 

[Justin Pickard]

A morganic marriage takes place when someone of a higher station marries someone of a lower station. I believe royalty has to marry dukes and duchesses or above...

Whilst I'm not so sure about the duke / duchess thing - it does look likely at this time (if we use Archduke Franz Ferdinand of Austria and Sophie as an example) that such a marriage would have had to been morganatic after all.

 

[Glen]

Have a nose over... here.

Wow. Very close concepts indeed.

I think there are enough subtle differences in concept to warrant this one as well. And already we see quite a difference in the two histories (and we've only two years of difference so far!).

Be interesting to see where the two twentieth centuries end up, though I note his is zeroist, so we're one year off in start and finish.

 

[Othniel]

Do you know if it exented to the rank of count? I just went as low as I could see it going without concern...maybe a Bulgarian...

 

[Justin Pickard]

Do you know if it exented to the rank of count? I just went as low as I could see it going without concern...maybe a Bulgarian...

I think Count / Countess was the grey area. Depending on how many people had heard of them and how big their ... tracts of land ... were.

 

[Nicole]

Do you know if it exented to the rank of count? I just went as low as I could see it going without concern...maybe a Bulgarian...

If I recall, Franz Ferdinand's marriage was to a Countess, and was rejected, though I'm not sure if Austrian and German marriage rules were the same.

 

[Glen]

February 2, 1901 Dr. Ernest Duchesne is in a carriage accident, suffering multiple fractures. He recovers but is left lame, being discharged from the French Army. He returns to civilian practice of medicine, and out of boredom begins to revisit his work on the antibiotic properties of molds. He marries Rosa Lassalas.

1903 Dr. Ernest Duchesne, desparate to help his consumptive wife, gives her an injection of Penicillium extract that he has been building up in his research. While the extract does not cure the Tuberculosis, it does relieve the secondary infection that is killing her. The initial results along with his lab work are presented in Paris, sparking a great deal of interest in mold produced antibiotics.