Would D-DAY still have been attempted if Russia had fallen?

Blue: Glad to see we agree...smile...

One point though, I wonder if Germany wouldn't simply descend into civil war after a smallish number (1-6?) bombs/cities. After all, Hitler wasn't loved by the military, and nukes were the sort of thing that focuses one's dislikes enormously. More to the point, if the nukes hit a city with Hitler (and or a significant number of senior Nazis), that might hasten things a bit. Remember, the Nazis were far more dependent upon their bureaucracy than the Japanese, hence more vulnerable to a few well-placed bombs.

Cheers!
 
Scott Rosenthal said:
Blue: Glad to see we agree...smile...
Haha, yes, big surprise, eh? ;)

Scott Rosenthal said:
One point though, I wonder if Germany wouldn't simply descend into civil war after a smallish number (1-6?) bombs/cities. (...) Remember, the Nazis were far more dependent upon their bureaucracy than the Japanese, hence more vulnerable to a few well-placed bombs.
That might be, Scott! But then again Germany was bombed rather severely (to say the least) in OTL, so it might not - Countries seems to be remarkably resiliant to bombings after all...
And with the USSR beaten in ´41, Hitler would be worshiped by quite a few Germans and even hardline military types - most of Old Adolf's really aggrevating mistakes were made from ´42 and onwards...

Regards and all!


- Bluenote.
 
1945 nuke on Berlin

When Hitler was killed, the other Nazi leaders would not be able to hold together against the army. The army would take over and set up a reasonably civilized empire in Europe, and we would occupy the rest of the world. Japan would be starved out. Siberia would be occupied by Europe, and Turkestan would be neutral.
After the Germans had lost so many civilian lives in the nuclear bombing they would be much less likely to want to fight WWIII twenty years later. Probably the puppet governments would get less puppetlike over time as the Nazi regime got creaky, like the Russian one did.
There would be a lot fewer Jews after Hitler got through with Russia, though. Probably two thirds of all the Jews in the world, instead of one third, would have been killed. Probably essentially all of the Gypsies in the world, instead of two thirds. Without Russia the Serbs would not have put up so much fuss and it would have just been occupied by Italy without a major massacre.

However, I still don't see how Hitler could realistically have taken Russia. Every army he sent against Moscow is an army he can't send against Kiev. Kiev would just have been the new center of Russia. The 1,000,000 soldiers not killed or captured at Kiev would have struck against the flank of the army attacking Moscow and Stalingradded them on a huge scale. I always thought that if they had moved against Moscow instead of Kiev the war would have ended in 1942 with the occupation of Berlin. Okay, maybe 1943.
 

Valamyr

Banned
Assuming you can POD out American nuclear weapons, no, i dont think the allies would have pushed it to the end if Russia had fallen completely. Theyd have settled for an armed peace, and a more bitter cold war.

With american nukes, though, theres no doubt theyd have won, at the cost of destroying europe altogether. A non-less bitter price to pay for civilization.
 
Limited nukes in first year

America had limited numbers of nuclear weapons in 1945. If we had waited till all our fissionables had been converted to lithographic implosion designs instead of lens implosion or gun designs, we might have dropped ten on Christmas Day in 1945, at an absolute max.
Then in 1946 we would have had a few dozen. This assumes that we diverted a lot of industrial effort into the Manhattan Project when we realized that an invasion was not on. Not just a few types of isotope separation plants and reactors, but all designs.
We would have had Liquid Thermal Diffusion, Gas Diffusion, and Electromagnetic Isotope separation plants, and Graphite-Air, Graphite-Helium, Heavy-Water, Graphite-Bismuth, and maybe Carbon-Suboxide Reactors.
The bombs would have been 100 kiloton each, fission only, nonfusion. These bombs would have destroyed about 20 square miles of city each. Good enough to kill Hitler and disrupt the Nazi party, but not enough to destroy civilization.
It also would have given the Germans an incentive to set up a reasonably equitable empire in the sense that they would not have murdered people in large numbers to make room for German farmers. Instead they would have set up a very reactionary/conservative system of panEurpean government to persuade the US government to stop nuking German cities. It would have been anticommunist but not antislav.
 
German nuke?

In case of a German victory in 41' I could see Hitler spending more resources on Germanys nuclear project. When the rumours of the Manhattan project started to go around even more could be spend. The Germans could very well have a nuke by mid-late 46.

And what about German chemical weapons? The v-2 and v-1 could both easily be modified to carry chemical weapons and to pour them out before impact. The Germans had very advanced chemical weapons during the war; they were around 20-50 times deadlier then ww1 chemical weapons. Imagine thousands of rockets pouring out nerve gas over London, not to unlikely, eh?

Finally: Submarines. The Germans produced ca: 1200 subs during the war, with no war and a built up of shipyards I could see the production tripled. Could Britain stand against such a threat?
 
A question comes to mind: Would Great Britain have fought on after a Russian defeat? I don´t mean capitulation, but simply an uneasy peace.
With Russia out, they don´t have any friends left on the continent. Could public opinion suffer this? I doubt it.
Also the government: If I asume I had been, say, a MP and Churchill told me: "Don´t tell anybody, but we have to hold out 3 years, than the Yanks come with their Great Superbomb That Can Destroy A City" I would have thought the stress on poor old Winnie was too much.

The Empire is threatened and nearly undefendable. Egypt and Suez Canal are directly threatened or already taken, India is threatened from Afghanistan.

And I don´t see Americans in Siberia. They would have to go past Japan, or from SOuth East Asia the whole continent upwards.
If they do it after they have taken out Japan, it still comes into effect only in 1944.

Also: What perspective for a new world order would there have been? Internationalsm requires a international community to start with. Although I doubt that missing a sound strategy for the time after a war has ever restrained anybody, without a group of victorious nations to fill the power vacuum the nuking of germany would have left.
 
Actually the Luftwaffe would not have been dramatically affected by the fall of the USSR. When it came to air power, the eastern front was always second-best for the Luftwaffe. Even as late as 1945 remnants of the Luftwaffe were still able to do some serious damage there, and Germany's best and bulk(by 1944) were aimed at the UK and US. Now if the collapse of the USSR freed up resources for the Me-262 by 1942...!

I don't see the USSR being destroyed but we can safely posit a major victory with 50-60 divisions sufficient to hold the east, would this change any scenarios here?

I always enjoy hearing how racist America refused to drop the bomb on white Germans in WWII. I guess these people think we should have nuked a nation AFTER it surrendered.

Curiousity, we have many death tolls from bombings in WWII but has anyone ever done a study on long-term damage, such as casualties suffered by those fleeing a burned city into a war-ravaged countryside?
 
One thing is willpower. Did US population had enough of it to keep them going. In OTL it was easy as US could point out victories. Torch, El-Alamein, Sicily, Italy. Plus Soviet ones plus constant bombing.

Now you have Germany victorious. Assuming they declare war on US (why does anybody here assume they do?) what can US show for their entry? N africa is doubtfull. If German forces are free from ematgrinder that was eastern front they could be sent to N africa, kicking Brits out. That leaves torch in empty space (no two front fight for DAK/DAA). If it's launched at all. That removes invasion of Italy out as well. So you have large army sitting in UK (asuming Brits are still in the war) with no chances of invasion of Europe. Would US populace support this or would they demand US makes some sort of peace with Germany and concentrates on Japan.

No offence to Americans here but I was always under impression Americans want quick results and neat solutions, not long, drawn out conflicts that don't seem to go anywhere.
 
Fuhrerbunker

One of the ideas that comes up a lot is the following non sequitur--US drops a first generation fission bomb on Berlin, Hitler is in Berlin ergo Hitler is dead.

"It ain't necessarily so."

Hitler is probably in his bunker which is at least a semihardened structure so there is an extremely good chance he will survive. Adding to this Atomic raids on Germany are likely to be night raids and the accuracy on a night raid that deep into Germany is going to be lousy.

As far as the German atomic weapon program I don't see any possibility them having an atomic weapon before 1947 and they may not have a practical delivery system for it.

World War Two was a colossal mismatch. Nazis lose.
 
I've heard Britain getting almost knocked out by the U-Boats was drastically exagerated. I doubt that would happen.
I would say we would win the war although it would be slow going with Norway taken and a invasion of Europe maybe coming through Greece and/or Italy.
Though the soviets would be officially beaten the people would be anything but, the Germans made it clear they wanted to exterminate them so they had nothing to loose.
 
So much...

Lets start wtih the U-boats. Leej, you might not believe that they were a war-winning threat, but Churchill (who was in a better position to know) thought so, and said so repeatedly. In point of fact, he believed (as did Pound and several other members of the Admiralty, who admittedly might be a bit biased) that the U-boats were the ONLY threat that could have brought Britain to its knees. I am not sure that additional production would have changed matters much, but if you want a POD where Britain has to surrender (or agree to a separate peace, in practice much the same thing), this is about the only realistic way to get it to happen...

The point raised several times about nukes being insufficient to wipe out a city wholesale (or kill Hitler if he was in it) is well taken, but ultimately unimportant. As for nukes not killing Hitler, I am not as sanguine about the value of his shelter(s) in the face of the devastation (blast+radiation+fire+fallout+rubble) that a nuke can generate. Even if Hitler does survive, much of the nazi hierarchy and its attendent bureaucracy doesn't survive, and that will bring about the collapse of the state just as easily as killing Der Fuhrer. The point that nukes in 1945 weren't fundementally different in scope from massed bomber raids misses the point. Nukes were 1 bomb, massed bomber raids were just that...massed. The Japanese suffered worse than Hiroshima during the Tokyo raids, but it was Hiroshima and Nagasaki that got them to throw in the towel.

A suggestion was made that the military would be more friendly to Hitler following the collapse of Russia, a point that is not supported by the historical record. Even after the fall of Poland, the swift success in the West, and the early successes in the USSR, military opposition to the 'jumped up corporal' was strong and intense. Once cities start disappearing in big mushroom clouds, the recriminations will begin, particularly if there is no effective counter. Perhaps not enough to spark a coup, but I rather doubt that the opposition will be willing to fight to the death amid radioactive rubble just because Hitler has a Samson complex...

The Germans weren't in a position to build their own bomb, period. Forget about the Heisenberg story (that he was deliberately sabotaging the German program, unlikely in the extreme given the way that the Nazis dealt with those they felt were traitors to the cause), the reactor that we found didn't even have control rods, and the German bomb designs lacked even the simplest concept of neutron reflectors. The German scientific hierarchy wasn't oriented towards open inquiry (they tended to simply follow the orders of the folks at the top), which means that throwing money/resources at the problem wasn't likely to generate much in the way of new approaches. Only the US had the resources to pursue multiple approaches to a hugely expensive project, and then build the delivery systems for it. One forgets that the B-29 program cost as much in RDTE as the Manhattan project...

As for numbers of bombs, wkwillis makes an excellent point that the US won't have that many bombs available soon, but how many does it need? Can you really imagine Germany fighting on after 10 nukes? after 20?... If there were a 'Black Christmas', with 10 German cities incinerated on 12/25/1945, do you really believe that a major crack in the German will to fight wouldn't occur?

Aktarian, your comment re: American will to fight is as incorrect as it is foolish. Why not take a look at the fighting in the Pacific, where nothing happened fast, and the fighting was bitter and often fruitless. As to why we assume that the Germans would declare war upon the US, the best reason is that this is exactly what they did. Why, given a victory over the USSR (assuming that they have won by 12/11/41) would they be MORE cautious? You are correct though, that they certainly would have followed up the fall of the USSR with strikes through the Med and possibly elsewhere, significantly complicating any US counterstrike. Since we aren't going to invade anyway, this is ultimately irrelevant...

Which brings us to the best post of all, and the one which has been neglected here. What if the US doesn't build a bomb? If we have a POD with no nukes...well, at that point I suspect the game is up, and the Germans will survive. Once you presume that they have all of Europe and much of the Middle east, it becomes very difficult to imagine that they won't have sufficient resources to sustain a long-term defense of their empire.

A final point, re: the Luftwaffe and the eastern front. The number of planes and pilots in the East was greater than that in the West for every year of the war, with the sole exception of 1940. Granted many of these were attack aircraft/bombers, but the resources are, for the most part, fungible. Without an eastern front, the Luftwaffe would be immensely strengthened, and possessed of resources that would make further development far more practical
 
The Germans would not declare war on America. Why? The reason they did do it was becuase they hoped the Japs would attack the Soviet union and help bring it down. Wait, didn't the Germans beat the Soviets in 1941 in this scenario? Yes they did, so why on earth would they then DoW America?
 
Peter, the Germans KNEW that the Japanese weren't going to attack the Soviet Union, as the Japanese had already signed a non-aggression pact with them quite some time before. The Germans had extensive diplomatic contacts with the Japanese (they were allies of a sort, remember?), so Pearl Harbor, and the non-aggression pacts were hardly a surprise..

As for declaring war on the US, Hitler loathed us almost as much as he hated the Russians (we were 'a mongrel people' in his words), so plenty of reason exists for that declaration of war. Since Hitler declared war while still involved in Russia in 1941, why would he be less likely to do so if he weren't still involved, following a German victory there?
 
Scott Rosenthal said:
Aktarian, your comment re: American will to fight is as incorrect as it is foolish. Why not take a look at the fighting in the Pacific, where nothing happened fast, and the fighting was bitter and often fruitless.

Us had something to show. 7 months after war started there was Midway. Prior to that was Coral Sea. IIRC Guadalcanal was about that time as well. US could show progress is amde and Japs are driven back. What about Germany? With war in Russia over Germany can strenghten N Africa. Can they defeat Brits? Maybe, maybe not. There certanlly woun't be Brit counteroffensive at El Alamein. Which means that if Torch is launched it can be either repelled or brought to standstill. Either way Wallies can't clear N Africa and invade Italy. Then what? Norway? OK, an option. Which gives Wallies what? Additional bases. Meanwhile majority of US troops are siting in UK doing practically nothing. Maybe US popualtion would be OK with it. OTOH it might not. Remeber, US can't show anything dramatic.
 
Brute Force and the Wizard War

Resources tend to rule in war. We had the 95% of the oil, 90% of the ore, 85% of the R+D (not the military R+D, just all of it in general), and 80% of the industry, counting the US, the Russians, the Commonwealth, and China vs Germany, Japan, and Italy, with their occupied areas, by the date of Pearl Harbor. Even if we date the final collapse of Russia as late as midsummer 1942, and credit the Japanese with all the resources of the areas they had conquered by then, it is only possible for Germany to draw a war if they had knocked out Russia soon enough so as to have access to their oil in 1943 at the latest. They needed to concentrate on Russia with all their forces instead of just 85%, as they did in OTL.
Germany might have taken out Russia if they had used their greatly superior nerve gases like Tabun to take out their remaining industrial cities in 1941, setting fires after they had killed off the fire fighters with gas, using an air force that had not been squandered in post 1940 combat over Britain and Africa.
The industrial centers uncaptured in December of 1941 were Moscow, Stalingrad, Leningrad to a surprising extent, and I think maybe Gorky if they had range from air bases near Moscow. Taking out the Murmansk railroad as they almost did and linking up with the Finns through Leningrad would have helped. Not to mention the logistics of being able to smuggle an occaisional ship through Murmansk after they had captured it.
Britain and Russia would have retaliated against Germany by using their inferior lung and blood gases. The British and the Russians combined did not have a big enough airforce to do more than annoy the Germans, though the Russians would have had some successes with blister gases through fighting on the defensive. Easier to bundle up against gases when not marching.
Say, Italy stays neutral and out of Greece and Yugoslavia stays in the Axis, allowing a few weeks extra time for the Germans to take Moscow before the mud of October. Maybe the POD is Ciano taking over from a Mussolini who slips in the bathtub? The Italians could sell their subs to Germany for use in the early part of the Battle of the Atlantic, before 1943 and the Allied breaking of the sub blockade. They could get along without bleeding Germany of scarce coal and oil by staying neutral and importing oil from the middle east, saving German coal and oil for the industrial economy and transport to the armies of the Eastern Front.
But then, if the Germans weren't tied down fighting the British, what makes you think that the Russians would have been caught so flatfooted? Stalin knew that the Germans would lose if they attacked him while still fighting a war with Britain and he was right. If the Germans weren't fighting a war with Britain, why would he have not blown the bridges and ordered his air force into the air as soon as the German air force crossed his borders? We know from historical records that he had ordered his forces not to fight back because he feared that the German generals were trying to start a war with Russia in preference to fighting a war with Britain.
 
Had the Germans put more resources into the Uboats then yes they could have won the war though as it is Britain did not come as close to loosing a people believe. We did not have people starving on the street or anything like that, nations have been in much worse states then we were and still held on. With the US on our side we had enough strength to start winning in the atlantic.
 
And you base this opinion on what evidence Leej? I point out again that Churchill, the Admiralty, and most (if not all, I cannot recall a single counterexample, though I concede the possibility) naval historians agree that this was the biggest threat of them all. The uboat menace in WWII struck at the serious food limitations that the UK faced, and did so in a way that the brits would be hard-pressed to cope with. All of the support from the US in the world wasn't going to be of any use if it was trapped on the wrong side of the ocean.
 
Leej is right

Scott Rosenthal said:
And you base this opinion on what evidence Leej? I point out again that Churchill, the Admiralty, and most (if not all, I cannot recall a single counterexample, though I concede the possibility) naval historians agree that this was the biggest threat of them all. The uboat menace in WWII struck at the serious food limitations that the UK faced, and did so in a way that the brits would be hard-pressed to cope with. All of the support from the US in the world wasn't going to be of any use if it was trapped on the wrong side of the ocean.

The defeat of the Uboats was primarily due to technology. Once they lost their ability to recharge at night, they were finished as an war winning weapon. May of 1943 is the turning point for sub sinkings because the Germans conceded defeat and took them home.
It was Blimps, radar, Huff Duff, Leigh Lights, and codebreaking that defeated them. All the US navy did was sink them. Preventing them from sinking more ships than were being constructed had already been accomplished.
Churchill was a good writer, but not necessarily a good historian.
 
Interesting things you guys all have to say. My topics aren't usually this successful... :)

I am surprised that the opinion is split almost 50/50.

But, I agree, that had there been the "Black Christmas" scenario, with 10 German cities wiped out on Christmas 1945, Germany, nor any other country would have still have had the will to fight on. Thats just brutal.
 
Top