Could a Fascist Czechoslovakia have defeated Germany?

  • Yes-the Czechs hold the line and Germany is beaten back and Hitler is overthrown or capitulates.

    Votes: 14 18.7%
  • No-it is a bloody fight, but with no international assistance Czechoslovakia is doomed.

    Votes: 61 81.3%

  • Total voters
    75
Czechoslovakia had a rather large prewar Fascist movement known as the National Fascist League, led by former Czechoslovakian Legion officer Radola Gajda. They were followers of a more Italian style Fascism.

340px-National_Fascist_Community_Crest.svg.png


Let's assume that this Fascist Czechoslovakia is led by Gajda, let's also assume he comes to power between 1926-1933. We know he was both anti-Polish and anti-German, so we know he's not giving into German demands while also not compromising for Polish support. Its ambiguous whether he'd support Austrian independence or whether that support would have any impact so let's say the Anchluss goes as otl.

The Czechoslovakian Army iotl 1938 was one of, if not the most, advanced in the world in terms of armor. Not to mention a strong air force, imposing land fortifications, and a relatively large and well equipped land army. Radola Gajda was a well known army officer himself and had a good war record during WWI. It's safe to assume that any fascist government will expand its Nation's military, especially one led by a war hero and general, who had very poor opinions of his neighbors Poland and Germany. The ittl Czechoslovakian Armed Forces would be likely larger and probably slightly better equipped. Unfortunately I can only find conflicting iotl stats on the Czech army, so I'd be happy to see if any here as any good ones. What is known is that the Czechs iotl possessed some ~450 modern combat aircraft, 200 fighters and 250 bombers, and around 600 tanks iirc. With the NOF and Gajda in charge the Czech army and air force would be much larger. Let's also assume that the otl defensive fortifications are finished and more extensive by 1938.


1_003


Come 1938, Hitler demands the Sudetenland. The Wallies are unwilling to intervene to protect a Fascist Czechoslovakia besides condemning Hitler. Mussolini condemns Germany and offers diplomatic support to Czechoslovakia. Gajda promises that the Sudetenland is Czech and any attempts to alter that will lead to war. Hitler declares war.

I think that the Czechs would hold their defensive positions. The Luftwaffe suffers significant casualties due to AA and the Czechoslovakian air force, they do, however, manage to maintain an advantage in the air. The Wehrmacht is repulsed. By the end of the first month of war Germany has failed to make significant gains. A number of Royalist soldiers in the German Army launch a coup and overthrow Hitler. They sign a peace deal recognizing the Sudetenland as Czech and agree to pay reparations.
 
Luftwaffe wipes the floor with the Czech Air Force. Lacking any strategic depth the Czech army are cut up into pockets and the Czechs capitulate in 2 weeks.
 

Justinian

Banned
They would do a better job than Poland, but they don't stand a chance on their own. The Polish were spread too thin, but at least the Czechs could be concentrated. They also had a good amount of armour.

Fascist Czechoslovakia's best bet is kissing the Third Reich's ass and attempting to get away with only ceding the Northern Sudetenland in exchange for an alliance.
 
Nope. They'd do even worse than Poland did all on their own.
Why do you think this.

1938 German army weren't a patch on 1939 German army and the Czechs in 1938 would have been competitive with the Poles of 1939. Throw in 264 blockhouses and over 10k pilboxes in the suddenland and the Czechs would have been able to give the Germans a bloody nose.

I'm not saying we would see a Czech victory but lasting 3 months and gutting the Luftwaffe and Panzers is likely.
 
Nope. They'd do even worse than Poland did all on their own.

Luftwaffe wipes the floor with the Czech Air Force. Lacking any strategic depth the Czech army are cut up into pockets and the Czechs capitulate in 2 weeks.

They would do a better job than Poland, but they don't stand a chance on their own. The Polish were spread too thin, but at least the Czechs could be concentrated. They also had a good amount of armour.

Fascist Czechoslovakia's best bet is kissing the Third Reich's ass and attempting to get away with only ceding the Northern Sudetenland in exchange for an alliance.

Considering Czechoslovakia's superior armor and how much damage the 1939 Luftwaffe took in Poland, 1/4th iirc and then how much weaker the 1938 Luftwaffe was compared to the 1939. I do not see anybody wiping the floor with anybody.

Considering the Oster Conspiracy's existence iotl, I don't think German victory is even that likely. Not to mention the possibility of Italian entry into the war, assuming Mussolini supports Gajda as he did Dolfuss.
 
They would do a better job than Poland, but they don't stand a chance on their own. The Polish were spread too thin, but at least the Czechs could be concentrated. They also had a good amount of armour.

Fascist Czechoslovakia's best bet is kissing the Third Reich's ass and attempting to get away with only ceding the Northern Sudetenland in exchange for an alliance.
That reminds me of a Czech AH novel that has such a scenario. Let me see if I can get the title.
 

Deleted member 1487

Considering Czechoslovakia's superior armor and how much damage the 1939 Luftwaffe took in Poland, 1/4th iirc and then how much weaker the 1938 Luftwaffe was compared to the 1939. I do not see anybody wiping the floor with anybody.

Considering the Oster Conspiracy's existence iotl, I don't think German victory is even that likely. Not to mention the possibility of Italian entry into the war, assuming Mussolini supports Gajda as he did Dolfuss.
The Czech air force was smaller, the Czech army smaller, the front more compressed, fewer targets, and how close together everything is, the Czechs would face a concentrated series of attacks they cannot defend against thanks to no radar. There is a reason that the Czech president panicked over threats of a mass bombardment of Prague, because there was nothing to stop it.

http://althistory.wikia.com/wiki/Invasion_of_Czechoslovakia_(WFAC)
 

Loghain

Banned
So the Soviets invade at the end? I mean IOTL they wanted to, they just weren't ready in 1941, the Germans were.

Well they invade around 1943 but yep. There are two books before it happens and The Second Part of the Second Book is about the Inter War Situation.
 
Nope. They'd do even worse than Poland did all on their own.
They wouldn't. OTL when they step in September they kicked the ass of Freikorps in few days. Only thing is at the end they would loose anyway.

And in 1944 Slovak army which was using 1938 equipment was able to hold Germans exactly for 2 months. Opposing forces were app same strong. Slovaks were basically cut off everybody and fucked up their opening move.
 
They would do a better job than Poland, but they don't stand a chance on their own. The Polish were spread too thin, but at least the Czechs could be concentrated. They also had a good amount of armour.

Fascist Czechoslovakia's best bet is kissing the Third Reich's ass and attempting to get away with only ceding the Northern Sudetenland in exchange for an alliance.
There is Czech book where after Munich Czechoslovak fascist general takea over. He has all important industry mined (or say so), arrested communists and tells Germans we can work together again threat or communism or you can attack. We will fight for every meter and destroy everything. You will loose your men and equipment and achieve nothing.
 
Luftwaffe wipes the floor with the Czech Air Force. Lacking any strategic depth the Czech army are cut up into pockets and the Czechs capitulate in 2 weeks.
In october 1938 weather was crappy, Czechoslovak air force already disppersed on camouflaged foeld airports and Germans were low on bombs.
 
Czechoslovakia had a rather large prewar Fascist movement known as the National Fascist League, led by former Czechoslovakian Legion officer Radola Gajda. They were followers of a more Italian style Fascism.

340px-National_Fascist_Community_Crest.svg.png


Let's assume that this Fascist Czechoslovakia is led by Gajda, let's also assume he comes to power between 1926-1933. We know he was both anti-Polish and anti-German, so we know he's not giving into German demands while also not compromising for Polish support. Its ambiguous whether he'd support Austrian independence or whether that support would have any impact so let's say the Anchluss goes as otl.

The Czechoslovakian Army iotl 1938 was one of, if not the most, advanced in the world in terms of armor. Not to mention a strong air force, imposing land fortifications, and a relatively large and well equipped land army. Radola Gajda was a well known army officer himself and had a good war record during WWI. It's safe to assume that any fascist government will expand its Nation's military, especially one led by a war hero and general, who had very poor opinions of his neighbors Poland and Germany. The ittl Czechoslovakian Armed Forces would be likely larger and probably slightly better equipped. Unfortunately I can only find conflicting iotl stats on the Czech army, so I'd be happy to see if any here as any good ones. What is known is that the Czechs iotl possessed some ~450 modern combat aircraft, 200 fighters and 250 bombers, and around 600 tanks iirc. With the NOF and Gajda in charge the Czech army and air force would be much larger. Let's also assume that the otl defensive fortifications are finished and more extensive by 1938.


1_003


Come 1938, Hitler demands the Sudetenland. The Wallies are unwilling to intervene to protect a Fascist Czechoslovakia besides condemning Hitler. Mussolini condemns Germany and offers diplomatic support to Czechoslovakia. Gajda promises that the Sudetenland is Czech and any attempts to alter that will lead to war. Hitler declares war.

I think that the Czechs would hold their defensive positions. The Luftwaffe suffers significant casualties due to AA and the Czechoslovakian air force, they do, however, manage to maintain an advantage in the air. The Wehrmacht is repulsed. By the end of the first month of war Germany has failed to make significant gains. A number of Royalist soldiers in the German Army launch a coup and overthrow Hitler. They sign a peace deal recognizing the Sudetenland as Czech and agree to pay reparations.
http://armada.vojenstvi.cz/predvalecna/studie/6.htm

Check this site. It is in Czech language but gives number of equipment for different weapon classes, how much was planned and how much available. Site is run by professional Czech historians. I believe two of them are working at History deparment of Czech Army.

For example. Additional at least 45 tanks would be put in Czechoslovak OoB from Swiss, Peruvians and Romanian orders.
Very likely other foreign orders of equipment would be pressed into service.
 
http://armada.vojenstvi.cz/predvalecna/studie/6.htm

Check this site. It is in Czech language but gives number of equipment for different weapon classes, how much was planned and how much available. Site is run by professional Czech historians. I believe two of them are working at History deparment of Czech Army.

For example. Additional at least 45 tanks would be put in Czechoslovak OoB from Swiss, Peruvians and Romanian orders.
Very likely other foreign orders of equipment would be pressed into service.

Thanks for the resource, the Czechs already had total armor superiority, though 45 tanks are certainly going to help.

I don't understand why everyone thinks the Czechs would get curbstomped. In this scenario they'd probably have a similar number of fighter aircraft, the Czechs are on the defensive, and the Germans lack the blitzkrieg of 1939. The Czechs don't have to take Berlin, they just have to hold the line. Then the German Army would likely remove Hitler from power, as in an ittl Oster conspiracy.
 

Deleted member 1487

They wouldn't. OTL when they step in September they kicked the ass of Freikorps in few days. Only thing is at the end they would loose anyway.
The Freikorps was a militia, not a professional army with the full range of military weapons and combined arms support.

And in 1944 Slovak army which was using 1938 equipment was able to hold Germans exactly for 2 months. Opposing forces were app same strong. Slovaks were basically cut off everybody and fucked up their opening move.
Seriously? Germany had a tiny fraction of their military to commit, rather than the full weight of it they'd have in 1938. As it was they committed a reinforced corps to occupy a nation of over 1 million people supported by the OSS and US air units and were actually outnumbered by the Slovaks. Soviet support from the independent Slovak forces fighting for the Soviets and Czech paratroopers in the Soviet army were brought in as well and they flew in equipment and supplies. Plus the Soviets were bashing away at the Dukla Pass, meaning only limited German forces were able to be committed to fight the Slovaks. All of this means the 1944 situation would not be even remotely relevant to the 1938 war.
 
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