Yet another Stuart WI people. What if Anne Marie Louise d'Orleans, Duchesse de Montpensier married King Charles II of England? A match between Anne, mainly known as le Grand Mademoiselle, was the richest heiress in Europe during her lifetime and Charles II, the arguably greatest of the Stuart Monarchs was discussed twice. The first was when Charles II was a penniless exile and the second was shortly after Charles was restored to the throne. So what if they married? I assume Anne would have to surrender some of her inheritance to the French Crown but at least some would remain hers. So would we see a situation similar to Navarre in the 15th and 16th centuries, with a foreign monarch owning vast holdings in France and drawing on their revenues? Would this be a good thing or a bad thing for the Anglo-French relations long term? Would the English Crown be financially independent from Parliament permanently? Would this be impediment to a Restoration in 1660? Would the Royalists, with greater financial resources to draw on, be able to bring about a restoration on their own, before 1660? Would an earlier marriage, cause an earlier marriage for James Duke of York & Albany?
WI: Le Grand mademoiselle married the Merry Monarch?
- Thread starter Emperor Constantine
- Start date
Hey, I'm happy to see more Stuart WIs! Gives me hope that my Elizabeth Stuart idea can become a full-fledged TL someday.
With that said, I wonder how keen the French king would be on Charles II's children inheriting some of the Duchesse de Montpensier's French holdings. Either that would have to be VERY carefully negotiated for the match's approval, or maybe the Duchesse would be married off to James, Duke of York, instead. Wish I could contribute more, but I don't know quite enough about the era to comment more in depth. Hope to read what other people have to say.Hey, I'm happy to see more Stuart WIs! Gives me hope that my Elizabeth Stuart idea can become a full-fledged TL someday.
Nice to see a response. Well if the marriage happened before the execution of Charles I, which along with right after the restoration are the most likely times, the decision would be Cardinal Mazarins. I can't imagine he would be any happier than Louis XIV but I imagine at least some of her holdings would remain hereditary. At least two of her territories were semi-sovereign principalities, Joinville and Dombes, so it would be interesting to see what happens if she retains them. And even if she has to hand over half her holdings, her income would still be around 300,000 livres (her income was guesstimated around 600-650,000 livres) so the English Crown would have an independent source of finance outside Parliament. IDK about James Duke of York.I don't remember reading any suggestions about York marrying Mademoiselle nor any other brides really. Though I wonder who James would marry if he avoided the Hyde scandal.
Well, probably no Glorious revolution as OTL. But I wonder Parliament reaction to a marriage to a French Catholic princess ? Anyways as you said, Charles II will definitively have a good source of income
Yeah definitely no "Glorious" revolution. For one Charles II would no doubt have legitimate children in this scenario, which butterflies the OTL glorious revolution away entirely. But Parliament wouldn't have an opinion if the marriage happens before 1649. Well they would but it wouldn't matter.
Yep it is true, after all King Charles I of England married Henrietta Maria of France, though she was unpopular because of her religion ( just like Catherine of Braganza). I wonder how much la Grande Mademoiselle cared about religion, perhaps she could convert just to piss off her cousin, the Sun King
But, we have to remember that from 1632 to 1643, she was in exile in Brussels, because her father Gaston of France was one of Richelieu's greatest political enemies and the Fronde starts in 1648 ( her father joined the rebels against the King). The 1640's and 1650's were tough decades for the English and French monarchies. I wonder what will be Mazarin' (or Richelieu ?) opinion on such a marriage.
Maybe with all her money, the Merry Monarch could just set up a power base in the Netherlands and then invade England a la Guillaume le Conquérant.
One of the main reason why she didn't have a real husband is that she had too many titles and Louis XIV didn't want all of this patrimony to go into foreign hands.
Anyways this is a good WI, I am going to think about it throughout the week.
But, we have to remember that from 1632 to 1643, she was in exile in Brussels, because her father Gaston of France was one of Richelieu's greatest political enemies and the Fronde starts in 1648 ( her father joined the rebels against the King). The 1640's and 1650's were tough decades for the English and French monarchies. I wonder what will be Mazarin' (or Richelieu ?) opinion on such a marriage.
Maybe with all her money, the Merry Monarch could just set up a power base in the Netherlands and then invade England a la Guillaume le Conquérant.
One of the main reason why she didn't have a real husband is that she had too many titles and Louis XIV didn't want all of this patrimony to go into foreign hands.
Anyways this is a good WI, I am going to think about it throughout the week.
Yep it is true, after all King Charles I of England married Henrietta Maria of France, though she was unpopular because of her religion ( just like Catherine of Braganza). I wonder how much la Grande Mademoiselle cared about religion, perhaps she could convert just to piss off her cousin, the Sun King
But, we have to remember that from 1632 to 1643, she was in exile in Brussels, because her father Gaston of France was one of Richelieu's greatest political enemies and the Fronde starts in 1648 ( her father joined the rebels against the King). The 1640's and 1650's were tough decades for the English and French monarchies. I wonder what will be Mazarin' (or Richelieu ?) opinion on such a marriage.
Maybe with all her money, the Merry Monarch could just set up a power base in the Netherlands and then invade England a la Guillaume le Conquérant.
One of the main reason why she didn't have a real husband is that she had too many titles and Louis XIV didn't want all of this patrimony to go into foreign hands.
Anyways this is a good WI, I am going to think about it throughout the week.
I think it depends on how active she is religiously. Henrietta Maria gained her unpopularity because she actively tried to convert the nobility and Court. Catherine of Braganza, however, was a Queen that happened to be Catholic. Remember the English people eventually loved their little Catholic Queen. I can't see her converting, but if she's not religiously pushy then I think the uproar would fade in time.
Yes she was in exile but by the time the marriage would be viable (1646-49 and 1660) she would be back in France. And definitely Mazarin, Richelieu died in 1642. I doubt it would be popular with the Regents and she would have to give up some of her properties. However, if she marries during the Fronde she might be able to marry without Royal approval and keep her properties. Though that might lead to ALL her properties being seized. Though to of her principalities, Joinville and Dombes, were semi-sovereign, so it would be interesting to see what the Royalists and later England would do with them.
As for a powerbase, I think it would be better to stay in France. I can't see the dutch being accepting of a King married to a French Princess, though if William II of Orange lives longer then things might change. Though it would be a good time to get a hold of mercenaries and other troops. After all 1648 was the end of the Thirty Years War, so there would be a lot of unemployed soldiers from the Holy Roman Empire, Sweden, the Netherlands and possibly other states I'm forgetting. Hmm it could work or it could trigger a negative response, with the people seeing the King as a foreign invader. I guess it all depends. And would a married le Grand Mademoiselle still participate in the Second Fronde? Who knows.
As for her marriage, your right. She was to rich to marry a French noble, as it would give whomever she married a power base to rebel against the throne, and marrying a foreign monarch would give French revenue away. The only people she could safely marry would be Louis XIV himself or Philippe d'Orleans, but both were to young. Its a shame.
Hmm, okay
- Maybe Gaston d'Orléans can betroth his daughter to the Prince of Wales (Charles II) in order to annoy his brother and Richelieu and to from a common front with England, the French Protestants (led by the Duke of Rohan) and discontented nobles + angry french parliamentarians (during the Fronde or before). I think this is a risky option as you said, her lands will be confiscated.
- During his exile, Charles II marries her in order to ally with the French monarchy. Charles can help Louis XIV crush the Fronde and negotiate something about his bride's patrimony. Then waits as OTL for Cromwell's death or the Commonwealth's fall.
- Anne Marie Louise d'Orléans marries Charles II in a effort promoted by Louis XIV in order to win an ally in Europe and to sent abroad a troublesome cousin ( she opened cannon fire from the Bastille on Turenne's troops thus helping and covering Condé's escape).
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1. Like I said very risky. If Charles and Anne are betrothed earlier than it might happen. However, by the time of the Fronde Louis XIII and Richelieu were both dead but on the other hand he could do it to annoy Mazarin and Anne of Austria. Plus by the 1640s England was in no position to help the Huguenots or Gaston. They could marry before the Fronde, in 1647-48, but that still leads to the problem of Royal ascent to the marriage. The only way this could work is if the Fronde rebel faction wins. That way Gaston and Conde would run the government and could easily give approval to his daughter the Princess of Wales' (or Queen of England depending on when the rebels win) marriage, not to mention get the King to sign something to allow her to keep her lands. Again risky but possible.
2. Most likely, though I'm not sure if Charles II would be any help with putting down the Fronde. Maybe he could offer the service of himself and his generals to the French Crown.
3. Semi-likely. I'm guessing this would happen after the Restoration? A little risky, with Anne being in her thirties and all. Though Charles could get more of his wife's lands, what with England being able to bargain with Dunkirk. It depends on how bad Louis XIV wants Dunkirk and what he's willing to let Anne keep.
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Bump..... I had a thought. A long term benefit of Charles' marriage to Catherine of Braganza was Bombay, which was part of her dowry. Here it would remain Portuguese. So this could mean England never gets fully involved in India, or at the very least it happens later.
Sorry to keep bumping this but I had another thought. Would Le Grand Mademoiselle's actions in the Fronde change? By that I mean would she still participate on le Grand Conde's side? And two, would France still be able to expel (diplomatically of course) Charles II from the Country with him being married to a major landed noble? I mean at this point he would be, by marriage Prince de Dombes, Duc de Montpensier and Dauphin de Auvergne, among other titles, as well as the exiled King of England, Scotland and Ireland. So would expelling the husband of such a rich figure as le Grand Mademoiselle still be possible or would it be a horrible insult to her?