WI: Kosovo granted republic status?

[Mookie]

But trouble is, nobody in Serbia would believe that he did all that to him self...

Hitler accused Jews because he KNEW that large number of Germans hate's Jews and that his accusations will pass easily. He didn't accused Austrians or Danes, but Jews. Same thing with Milošević, he said what majority of Serbs allready believed, because they were ready to believe that a Albanian savage was ready to do any horrible thing to anyone and especially to Serbs...

Except that medical investigation proved he anally masturbated with a glass bottle by pushing a stick in the ground and putting bottle on it and lied about it because he didnt want to go to hospital saying what he did and being shamed in front of family and entire village.
They could have shown that you know?

 

[Mookie]

Trouble is, for Serbian nationalists Albania is also a "serbian land" ( Epirus from Dušan's Empire time ).
So, even for those that are not nationalists, giving KOSOVO ( of all places ) would be arch-treason of Serbia.
With Albania in Yugoslavia or without them... After all, if you let Albania in Yugoslavia, than Serbs will have less say in Yugoslavia...

Serb land is Tokyo as well. Siberia is Serb land, look how similar that is. And Guardiola, Fabregas, Puyol, Xavi, Piqué are all Serbs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GqRcCKr3eM

Rome was founded by Serbs and had 17 Serb emperors and other jewels.

One shouldnt play into the illusion but work to dispell it.

 

[abc123]

Then give Autonomous republics no vote. Idea that Autonomous Kosovo was created to protect Albanians has no base in reality, looking at how they were treated there and opressed for 50 years.

3 votes to Serbia + 1 in Montenegro = 4
Bosnia, Slovenia, Croatia and Macedonia = 4

Meaning that if Serbia doesnt want something passed it wont pass. But it can pass from their side as long as they win someone over

The thing is, all this thing with votes didn't meant shit while Tito was still alive.
And after his death, you basicly had Slovenia on one side and Serbia ( proper ) on another. Croatia was in period of silence ( with Croatian communist leadership extremely silent after crushing of Croatian Spring in 1971 ), Macedonia and Montenegro were too small and irrelevant and BiH was too divided internally and focused on Yugoslavian identity to be important.

 

[abc123]

Except that medical investigation proved he anally masturbated with a glass bottle by pushing a stick in the ground and putting bottle on it and lied about it because he didnt want to go to hospital saying what he did and being shamed in front of family and entire village.
They could have shown that you know?

But why, oh why, when this version perfectly suited both Milošević and Serbian national psyche?

 

[Mookie]

The thing is, all this thing with votes didn't meant shit while Tito was still alive.
And after his death, you basicly had Slovenia on one side and Serbia ( proper ) on another. Croatia was in period of silence ( with Croatian communist leadership extremely silent after crushing of Croatian Spring in 1971 ), Macedonia and Montenegro were too small and irrelevant and BiH was too divided internally and focused on Yugoslavian identity to be important.

If you said Croats, Bosniaks or Albanians were opressed in Yugoslavia I would say sure, since they were. All Bosniak leaders were executed.
Croatian ones also, as well as blocking of economic projects in Croatia for no reason than the project being in Croatia (Including the blocking of a highway)
Serbs got all the power in Yugoslavia and they were opressed in it? Do give me that kind of opression next time someone has an idea to create a genocidal monster called Yugoslavia

But why, oh why, when this version perfectly suited both Milošević and Serbian national psyche?

In order to calm things down, tell the truth, avoid war, genocide etc..

 

[abc123]

It's all about perception... Reality is not important, perception is.

Also, if you tell the truth then Milošević will not become a president of Serbia ( meaning that somebody else will telling lies and become president ), and for him that was major no-no...

 

[Halagaz]

Then give Autonomous republics no vote. Idea that Autonomous Kosovo was created to protect Albanians has no base in reality, looking at how they were treated there and opressed for 50 years.

3 votes to Serbia + 1 in Montenegro = 4
Bosnia, Slovenia, Croatia and Macedonia = 4

Meaning that if Serbia doesnt want something passed it wont pass. But it can pass from their side as long as they win someone over

Actually, no. In 1974, Kosovo and Vojvodina were granted veto power in the Yugoslav and Serbian parliaments. Meaning that, not only did they have their own vote, but (central) Serbia was effectively denied control even over itself. Both Kosovo and Vojvodina could veto any decision made in regards to Serbia, but Serbia was not allowed to influence the decisions of Kosovo and Vojvodina, despite the fact that both were formally its "autonomous provinces".
So much for the "50 year long oppression of Albanians" and the alleged Greater Serbian agenda of the communist government. (well, it isn't alleged by any serious historians, but still...)

 

[Mookie]

Actually, no. In 1974, Kosovo and Vojvodina were granted veto power in the Yugoslav and Serbian parliaments. Meaning that, not only did they have their own vote, but (central) Serbia was effectively denied control even over itself. Both Kosovo and Vojvodina could veto any decision made in regards to Serbia, but Serbia was not allowed to influence the decisions of Kosovo and Vojvodina, despite the fact that both were formally its "autonomous provinces".
So much for the "50 year long oppression of Albanians" and the alleged Greater Serbian agenda of the communist government. (well, it isn't alleged by any serious historians, but still...)

And who were delegates from Kosovo and Vojvodina?
Hungarians, Croats, Romanians? I think you know the answer pretty nicely.
Triple veto for Serbia.
Quadruple for Serbs

 

[Mookie]

It's all about perception... Reality is not important, perception is.

Also, if you tell the truth then Milošević will not become a president of Serbia ( meaning that somebody else will telling lies and become president ), and for him that was major no-no...

Well then I am glad that Kosovo is free and that the former republics are free as well. One gets what one deserves for lying and deceiving

 

[Halagaz]

And who were delegates from Kosovo and Vojvodina?
Hungarians, Croats, Romanians? I think you know the answer pretty nicely.
Triple veto for Serbia.
Quadruple for Serbs

Yes, I know the answer to that, while you seem to have gotten somewhat confused. They were Albanians (for Kosovo), and Hungarians and Serbs (for Vojvodina).

This veto was not only applicable on the level of Yugoslavia, but within Serbia. This effectively stripped the partial sovereignty owed to all the socialist republics from already minimized Central Serbia, turning it into a joint protectorate of Kosovo and, less importantly, Vojvodina.

But I guess it's much easier to hysterically scream about Tokyo (a football joke, as I hope you're aware), post a few statements from a fringe lunatic who less then 0.1% of Serbia takes seriously, and make borderline racist statements about some kind of a "Serbian national psyche" than to look up the actual facts.

 

[Angel Heart]

The bottle in the ass was that mans own doing. And Milosevic used that along with other things for fear mongering and political gains. Saying that a situation made him is silly. He made the situation and used it. He could have just as easily used the investigation results and show everyone that the man used the bottle for masturbation and that it broke inside his ass and was too ashamed to admit what he was doing (since he needed medical help) and lied about Albanians doing it

As for Bosnia that was impossible and we all know that

Oh the flashbacks I'm having of Chapter 2. There were some initial doubts if he could have done it to himself and the JNA later claimed how it most likely was Martinović's own doing. Even after that there was still some controversy which wasn't helped by the fact that neither Serbia nor the federal organs bothered to investigate it further. For those who are interested there's a Wikipedia entry on that. My personal theory is that it was indeed done by two unknown Albanians, but also that it was consensual.

EDIT: No matter what really happened, the incident was medially exploited and served it's purpose.

With the situation I was referring to the overall instability and the interethnic tensions that were there long before Milošević became a relevant factor. Even without Sloba things would have probably gone south. With the overall catastrophic economic situation, the deteriorating Serbo-Albanian relations and the ethnic composition of the province, for Serbia Kosovo was an Intifada just waiting to happen.

Serb land is Tokyo as well.

Hai! Kore ga jijitsu desu. Serubia banzai!

And who were delegates from Kosovo and Vojvodina?
Hungarians, Croats, Romanians? I think you know the answer pretty nicely.
Triple veto for Serbia.
Quadruple for Serbs

How about the thought that the system that was ment to lessen Serbia's influence simply backfired in 1991 via the abuse of legal loopholes?

 

[Mookie]

Yes, I know the answer to that, while you seem to have gotten somewhat confused. They were Albanians (for Kosovo), and Hungarians and Serbs (for Vojvodina).

This veto was not only applicable on the level of Yugoslavia, but within Serbia. This effectively stripped the partial sovereignty owed to all the socialist republics from already minimized Central Serbia, turning it into a joint protectorate of Kosovo and, less importantly, Vojvodina.

But I guess it's much easier to hysterically scream about Tokyo (a football joke, as I hope you're aware), post a few statements from a fringe lunatic who less then 0.1% of Serbia takes seriously, and make borderline racist statements about some kind of a "Serbian national psyche" than to look up the actual facts.

Care to name them?

What decisions in Serbia were blocked by them? Care to name?

Dont react like that. I dont see the reason to be upset. Opression of Albanians, Bosniaks and Croats in Yugoslavia was the fact. And due to that, trying to portray Serbs as going trough that of course gets people upset. Dont take it personaly. Relax

Oh the flashbacks I'm having of Chapter 2. There were some initial doubts if he could have done it to himself and the JNA later claimed how it most likely was Martinović's own doing. Even after that there was still some controversy which wasn't helped by the fact that neither Serbia nor the federal organs bothered to investigate it further. For those who are interested there's a Wikipedia entry on that. My personal theory is that it was indeed done by two unknown Albanians, but also that it was consensual.

EDIT: No matter what really happened, the incident was medially exploited and served it's purpose.

With the situation I was referring to the overall instability and the interethnic tensions that were there long before Milošević became a relevant factor. Even without Sloba things would have probably gone south. With the overall catastrophic economic situation, the deteriorating Serbo-Albanian relations and the ethnic composition of the province, for Serbia Kosovo was an Intifada just waiting to happen.



Hai! Kore ga jijitsu desu. Serubia banzai!

How about the thought that the system that was ment to lessen Serbia's influence simply backfired in 1991 via the abuse of legal loopholes?

Thats where we disagree. Saying that its normal to inflame passions by falsely claiming that Albanians sodomized a Serb with a broken bottle doesnt make sense nor should it be accepted as normal.
It should have been investigated, instead it was used to pave way for genocide on Albanians and to intensify their opression

Intifada created by the government. Instead of giving Albanians their representatives, they got apointed Serb Albanians as they came to be known. People who kept saying that everything is fine, Albanians love Belgrade etc... Like is being done today in Sandzak and Vojvodina, which will only result in it boiling over, but not my problem and I dont blame the people living there wanting equal rights.

Ethnic tensions were not a given and bound to happen. They were created.

A system which was meant to lessen Serb influence gave them 3X the votes of other countries, put all the weapons in their hands and got all the officers to be Serbs...
Yes, I see the horrible opression right there. Just as Hitler gave Jews 3X the vote of a German, gave them all the weapons and appointed them to all positions of power

 

[Halagaz]

Care to name them?

What decisions in Serbia were blocked by them? Care to name?

Dont react like that. I dont see the reason to be upset. Opression of Albanians, Bosniaks and Croats in Yugoslavia was the fact. And due to that, trying to portray Serbs as going trough that of course gets people upset. Dont take it personaly. Relax

I'm relaxed, thank you.

If you don't believe me, you can look up their names over here. As I said, Kosovo's representatives were Albanians, although the last guy (Milosevic's candidate, Sejdo) has a surname which suggests there may be Bosniaks up his family tree. Vojvodina's representatives were sometimes Serbs, sometimes Hungarians.

Many Serbian, Croatian, Bosniak, Albanian and other individuals were oppressed. That's what communist dictatorships often do, they oppress people. However, saying that the Albanian, Bosniak or Croat ethnicities were oppressed in the SFRY is grossly inaccurate and has little to no facts to back it up.

 

[Angel Heart]

Thats where we disagree. Saying that its normal to inflame passions by falsely claiming that Albanians sodomized a Serb with a broken bottle doesnt make sense nor should it be accepted as normal.
It should have been investigated, instead it was used to pave way for genocide on Albanians and to intensify their opression

Intifada created by the government. Instead of giving Albanians their representatives, they got apointed Serb Albanians as they came to be known. People who kept saying that everything is fine, Albanians love Belgrade etc... Like is being done today in Sandzak and Vojvodina, which will only result in it boiling over, but not my problem and I dont blame the people living there wanting equal rights.

Ethnic tensions were not a given and bound to happen. They were created.

Of course the tensions were created but in an earlier time before the concept of Yugoslavia was made a physical reality. While Sloba's exploitation of the local Serbs' resentment did pour oil into the fire, he would have had absolutely no chance to create an anti-Albanian hysteria out of nowhere. If the Serbo-Albanian relations weren't problematic in the first place the public in Serbia would have been a lot more reserved after hearing from the Martinović incident instead of going nuts and designating the guilty in advance like people today do over MH17. The bad blood was already there and so was the irredentism which over the years became only much worse mostly thanks to Belgrade making one fatal mistake after the other.

A system which was meant to lessen Serb influence gave them 3X the votes of other countries, put all the weapons in their hands and got all the officers to be Serbs...
Yes, I see the horrible opression right there. Just as Hitler gave Jews 3X the vote of a German, gave them all the weapons and appointed them to all positions of power

Besides of not really knowing what Hitler has to do with anything related to the structure of the federal government, I assume that by that logic Tito and the KPJ were Greater Serb irredentists. Which is kind of strange given the borders of the republics when compared to what some Serb nationalist circles consider to be Serbia. Doesn't it sound more logical that Serbia was split into three pieces in an attempt to make her more "equal" to the other republics as her dominance was seen as the main cause of the Yugoslav Kingdom's demise? Or maybe that especially with the 1974 constitution a vote of Vojvodina and Kosovo were ironically ment to prevent the very same that happened in early 1991?

 

[Mookie]

I'm relaxed, thank you.

If you don't believe me, you can look up their names over here. As I said, Kosovo's representatives were Albanians, although the last guy (Milosevic's candidate, Sejdo) has a surname which suggests there may be Bosniaks up his family tree. Vojvodina's representatives were sometimes Serbs, sometimes Hungarians.

Many Serbian, Croatian, Bosniak, Albanian and other individuals were oppressed. That's what communist dictatorships often do, they oppress people. However, saying that the Albanian, Bosniak or Croat ethnicities were oppressed in the SFRY is grossly inaccurate and has little to no facts to back it up.

Ilija Rakačić
Replaced by Sreten Kovacević
Stevan Doronjski
Radovan Vlajković
Radovan Vlajković
Dragutin Zelenović5
1990 Jugoslav Kostić

Sinan Hasani was elected as the Kosovar member of the Yugoslavian presidency in 1984 with his term ending in 1989. He also served as head of the rotating presidency. On Hasani's first day as president, he and his presidency unanimously appointed the anti-reform hardliner Branko Mikulić as the federal Prime Minister of Yugoslavia. After Mikulić and his cabinet voluntarily resigned in March 1989, as the first federal ministry in the history of Socialist Yugoslavia, Hasani initially supported the unsuccessful bid of the Milošević loyalist and Serb hardliner Borisav Jović, to become the federal PM. It was contrary to the candidacy of the economically liberal reformist Ante Marković, which was proposed by the republics of Slovenia and Croatia, and finally approved by the Federal Assembly of Yugoslavia, and also by the outgoing presidency, including Hasani himself.
Hasani died in Belgrade on 28 August 2010.
(Serb Albanian)

During his political career in socialist Yugoslavia, Hoxha subscribed to the principles of Yugoslav policy of "brotherhood and unity", believing in the need to achieve national equality between Albanians, Serbs, and other national groups within Kosovo and Yugoslavia
Fadil Hoxha (Serb Albanian)

I think the list is clear who got apointed and where. You are stil left to tell me what reforms got vetoet by these autonomous regions?

As for crimes agains Albanians, Bosniaks and Croats, please feel free to educate yourself:

http://diwan-magazine.com/komunisticki-zlocini-nad-bosnjacima/

http://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jugokomunistički_zločini_nakon_završetka_Drugog_svjetskog_rata

http://www.spokesman.com/stories/1998/mar/10/cradle-of-hate-serb-oppression-of-ethnic/

 

[Mookie]

Of course the tensions were created but in an earlier time before the concept of Yugoslavia was made a physical reality. While Sloba's exploitation of the local Serbs' resentment did pour oil into the fire, he would have had absolutely no chance to create an anti-Albanian hysteria out of nowhere. If the Serbo-Albanian relations weren't problematic in the first place the public in Serbia would have been a lot more reserved after hearing from the Martinović incident instead of going nuts and designating the guilty in advance like people today do over MH17. The bad blood was already there and so was the irredentism which over the years became only much worse mostly thanks to Belgrade making one fatal mistake after the other.

The Albanian resentment of Serbs was created in the kingdom of Yugoslavia when they were free game for anyone who wanted to kill them and were subjected to Serb colonization. Serb hate of them was developed over time, culminating with Milosevic.
As for Ukraine plane I would ask you to stop reading Kurir and actualy watch some news. Its clear who shot it down.

Besides of not really knowing what Hitler has to do with anything related to the structure of the federal government, I assume that by that logic Tito and the KPJ were Greater Serb irredentists. Which is kind of strange given the borders of the republics when compared to what some Serb nationalist circles consider to be Serbia. Doesn't it sound more logical that Serbia was split into three pieces in an attempt to make her more "equal" to the other republics as her dominance was seen as the main cause of the Yugoslav Kingdom's demise? Or maybe that especially with the 1974 constitution a vote of Vojvodina and Kosovo were ironically ment to prevent the very same that happened in early 1991?

I think they actualy were. Systematic opression of Croats, denial of Bosniak existence, language and culture, institutionalization of Serb dominance in every institution in the country, making sure they get extra votes after he leaves, etc...

If he wanted to make Serbia more equal then he wouldnt opress Croats, deny Bosniaks, deny rights to Albanians, give extra votes to the Serbs etc. He would allow everyione freedom and give Serbs 1 vote. Thats all.

 

[Angel Heart]

http://diwan-magazine.com/komunisticki-zlocini-nad-bosnjacima/

http://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jugokomunistički_zločini_nakon_završetka_Drugog_svjetskog_rata

http://www.spokesman.com/stories/1998/mar/10/cradle-of-hate-serb-oppression-of-ethnic/

Holy shit! The first one especially is pretty much the Muslim counterpart of Nova Srpska Politička Misao.

The Albanian resentment of Serbs was created in the kingdom of Yugoslavia when they were free game for anyone who wanted to kill them and were subjected to Serb colonization. Serb hate of them was developed over time, culminating with Milosevic.

So the situation was already there, as I said.

As for Ukraine plane I would ask you to stop reading Kurir and actualy watch some news. Its clear who shot it down.

I actually did watch some news on that.

I think they actualy were.

And I think you should maybe avoid sites like Diwan in the future. :/

 

[Mookie]

Holy shit! The first one especially is pretty much the Muslim counterpart of Nova Srpska Politička Misao.

Care to show whats bad about them and what lies they are spreading? Need I remind you on how the conversion of Sasa Zunic was reported in Serb media?

So the situation was already there, as I said.

And escalated thanks to Serb leadership.

I actually did watch some news on that.

Using the "Russia lost propaganda war" and claiming that its all a western conspiracy seems so earily familiar rhetoric to Markale and Srebrenica..

And I think you should maybe avoid sites like Diwan in the future. :/

Dont see a reason why, they havent lied or missinformed public, and are not comunists like the rest of news.

 

[Snowstalker]

You'd still need to avoid the speeding bullet named Milosevic and his brand of virulent Serbian nationalism which places Kosovo, paradoxically the site of the worst Serb defeat in early modern history, as one of the holiest sites for Serbian ultranationalism. Kosovo being an autonomous republic would probably become yet another grievance on his part.

This is exactly why Kosovo is so important to Serbs--it's perceived as a last stand against the Ottoman Empire (hence why it was drummed up for their independence movement in the 19th century) and the Serbian Orthodox Church is headed there. It doesn't change the fact Kosovo's OTL secession is a fait accompli and that it's mostly an issue now in Serbia to rile up voters (like Kashmir in India/Pakistan or the Malvinas in Argentina), but it is important to recognize why Serbs, even those who aren't virulent racists/nationalists, care so much about Kosovo.

As for Milosevic, he was obviously awful, but it's important to remember that he was far from the worst Serbian nationalist at the time.

 

[Mookie]

This is exactly why Kosovo is so important to Serbs--it's perceived as a last stand against the Ottoman Empire (hence why it was drummed up for their independence movement in the 19th century) and the Serbian Orthodox Church is headed there. It doesn't change the fact Kosovo's OTL secession is a fait accompli and that it's mostly an issue now in Serbia to rile up voters (like Kashmir in India/Pakistan or the Malvinas in Argentina), but it is important to recognize why Serbs, even those who aren't virulent racists/nationalists, care so much about Kosovo.

As for Milosevic, he was obviously awful, but it's important to remember that he was far from the worst Serbian nationalist at the time.

Why is nationalism and religion mixed in Serbia?
Or beter yet, why cant it be separated?