WI: Isabeau de Bretagne Lives

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by Kellan Sullivan, Jan 20, 2016.

  1. Kellan Sullivan Well-Known Member

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    Dec 9, 2012
    Isabeau/Isabelle de Bretagne was the younger sister of the more famous Anne, duchesse de Bretagne, twice queen-consort of France. Isabeau died in April 1490 of pneumonia. But what if she hadn't? Any thoughts?
     
  2. kasumigenx Well-Known Member

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    May 26, 2009
    She can marry Maximilian as the replacement bride for Anne of Brittany.
     
  3. Kynan Well-Known Member

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    Oct 7, 2013
    I'd imagine Isabeau de Bretagne would most likely be made to follow her sister and thus would arrive in the French Court when she does. Anne of France, the real power behind the throne, would want to keep her in the family and she happens to have one very helpful and available son wandering around in the French Court (I know that the actual existence of Charles, Count of Clermont is debated but for this idea he exists). So I could see Anne married to Charles while Isabeau would be married to Charles, Count of Clermont. This union would have to leave children before his death in 1498 to have any real impact so lets say they go through 4 pregnancies prior to his death: Peter (b.1492), Miscarriage (c.1493), Francis (b.1495) and Anne (b.1497). And so, when Anne is widowed in 1498, Louis XII may attempt to marry Isabeau instead and have her first children disinherited from the inheritance of Brittany, placing Anne of Brittany in a convent. Though most likely the world goes as OTL and Claude and Renee of France are born. However, with a legitimate, male nephew I can see Anne attempting to abdicate or brush over her daughters so that Brittany can stay independant, though this most likely doesn't work.

    Isabeau is a highly desirable widow with a shot at inheriting a very large fief in the future, I can see her now being snapped up by someone hoping to gain what she will have. I can see her being offered to Philibert II of Savoy in the early 1500s and, if that doesn't go through, his younger brother after his death. She may be considered for Henry VII after the death of Elizabeth of York. Though, with the lack of actual, older male relatives Louis XII has, I can see her ending up with Charles III of Savoy in the early 1500s, before his brother dies. A wealthy widow, with a shot of becoming a Duchess if her older sister and sickly niece die, which seems like it may happen. And so Isabeau would become Duchess of Savoy in 1504. Most likely she, now in her late 20s, gives birth 6/7 times (her sister would have between 10 and 15 pregnancies, 12 between two marriages is perfectly acceptable): Louise (b.1503) Charles Emmanuel (b.1504), Miscarriage (c.1506), Margaret (b.1507), Miscarriage (c.1507), Philibert (b.1508) and Isabelle (b.1511).
     
  4. Kellan Sullivan Well-Known Member

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    Dec 9, 2012
    I recently found out that if Isabeau had lived, she would've married Jean d'Albret (who OTL married Catherine of Navarre). This could be interesting since then Isabeau's survival leaves Catherine without a husband. Would Catherine be married to the comte de Clermont instead? Bourbon-Navarre a few generations early?
     
  5. kasumigenx Well-Known Member

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    May 26, 2009
    Catherine of Navarre was proposed to be betrothed to the son of Ferdinand of Aragon..
     
  6. Kynan Well-Known Member

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    Oct 7, 2013
    Second minor POD: Anne of Brittany has her daughter Anne of France survive.

    Francis II, Duke of Brittany (b.1433: d.1488) m. Margaret of Brittany (b.1443: d.1469) (a) Margaret of Foix (b.1449: d.1486) (b)

    1a) John, Count of Montfort (b.1463: d.1463)

    2b) Anne, Duchess of Brittany (b.1477: d.1514) m. Charles VIII of France (b.1470: d.1498) (a), Louis XII of France (b.1462: d.1515) (b)

    1a) Charles Orlando, Dauphin of France (b.1492: d.1495)

    2a) Francis of France (b.1493: d.1493)

    3a) Stillborn Girl (c.1494)

    4a) Stillborn Daughter (c.1495)

    5a) Charles, Dauphin of France (b.1496: d.1496)

    6a) Francis, Dauphin of France (b.1497: d.1497)

    7a) Anne of France (b.1498)

    8b) Claude of France (b.1499)

    9b) Miscarriage (c.1500)

    10b) Stillborn Boy (c.1503)

    11b) Miscarriage (c.1503)

    12b) Miscarriage (c.1505)

    13b) Miscarriage (c.1508)

    14b) Miscarriage (c.1509)

    15b) Renee of France (b.1510)

    16b) Stillborn Boy (c.1512)​

    3b) Isabeau of Brittany (b.1478: d.1539) m. Charles, Count of Clermont (c.1478: d.1498) (a), Charles III, Duke of Savoy (b.1486: d.1553) (b)

    1a) Peter, Duke of Bourbon (b.1492: d.1520) m. Margaret of Angouleme (b.1492: d.1549) (a)

    1a) Catherine de Bourbon (b.1511)

    2a) John, Duke of Bourbon (b.1513)

    3a) Miscarriage (c.1516)

    4a) Louis de Bourbon (b.1520: d.1522)​

    2a) Miscarriage (c.1493)

    3a) Francis de Bourbon (b.1495: d.1510)

    4a) Anne de Bourbon (b.1497)

    5b) Charles Francis IV of Savoy (b.1503) m. Beatrice of Portugal (b.1504: d.1538) (a)

    1a) Miscarriage (c.1520)

    2a) Adrian John Amadeus, Prince of Piedmont (b.1522: d.1523)

    3a) Louis, Duke of Savoy (b.1523: d.1596)

    4a) Emmanuel Philibert of Savoy (b.1525: d.1580)

    5a) Catherine of Savoy (b.1528)

    6a) Miscarriage (c.1531)

    7a) Isabella of Savoy (b.1534: d.1536)

    8a) John of Savoy (b.1536: d.1537)

    9a) Miscarriage (c.1537)​

    6b) Margaret of Savoy (b.1504)

    7b) Miscarriage (c.1506)

    8b) Philibert Louis of Savoy (b.1508)

    9b) Claudine of Savoy (b.1509)

    10b) Miscarriage (c.1511)

    11b) Philip of Savoy (b.1513: d.1514)​
     
  7. Kellan Sullivan Well-Known Member

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    Dec 9, 2012
    Except the age gap was considered too large IIRC
     
  8. Kellan Sullivan Well-Known Member

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    Dec 9, 2012
    Except for there being another heartbeat between Claude and the Breton throne, how does this help matters?
     
  9. Kellan Sullivan Well-Known Member

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    I've been musing again on Jean d'Albret being unavailable to marry Catherine. I was wondering if an Armagnac-Nemours candidate might be considered? Or a Foix cousin? The Armagnacs had ties to both the previous generation - Queen Leonor's children - as well as to the Anjous (Jacques d'Armagnac was married to Louise d'Anjou-Maine (goddaughter of Louis XI)). Assuming that the age-gap (7-years) is still too large for Catherine to wed the Prince de los Asturias.
     
  10. kasumigenx Well-Known Member

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    May 26, 2009

    Actually, Catherine of Navarre is married to Jean d'albret on 1486..
     
  11. Cornelis Well-Known Member

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    Sep 9, 2016
    Actually, it was on july 14, 1484.

    Conflict is looming between Francis Ist and Isabeau's family : Louise de Savoie has her eyes on both Savoy and Bourbon.
     
  12. kasumigenx Well-Known Member

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    Alternatively, Catherine of Navarre can marry the Dauphin herself..
     
  13. Cornelis Well-Known Member

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    Sep 9, 2016
    You mean, Catherine de Navarre marrying Charles VIII ? He was engaged to Margarita of Austria since 1482 and only called off the engagement to marry Anne of Brittany. Anne de Beaujeu did not seemed the least interested in another Navarran match.
     
  14. kasumigenx Well-Known Member

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    Catherine of Navarre can marry an Armagnac, however, Louis the Spider hates the Armagnacs very much..
     
  15. Kynan Well-Known Member

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    Oct 7, 2013
    Catherine of Navarre, in this scenario, could marry Charles, Count of Angouleme.
     
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  16. kasumigenx Well-Known Member

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    Catherine is ultrafertile, she can pop many Angouleme kids..
     
  17. Kellan Sullivan Well-Known Member

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    Interesting times ahead, then if the direct Valois and Valois-Orléans branches still predecease as OTL, and an alt-François d'Angoulême succeeds to the throne. I wonder what happens to Louise de Savoie in this scenario? (I saw a TL once - can't think of the name or where I saw it (IDT it was on here) - where Louise gets married to Jasper Tudor, Duke of Bedford as a second husband, IDK why Catherine Wydeville wasn't available. Later in the TL, François I marries Beatriz of Portugal by waylaying her in France en route to Chambery (I can't remember if Claude was dead or never born).

    Hopefully, if she does, she'll do somewhat better than with her OTL husband, since that was a pretty even boy-girl ratio, but the boys (with the exception of Henri and Charles) all seem to have died in infancy, while only two of the girls (Madeleine and Jeanne) shoved off early, and most of them didn't marry because of the fact Navarre was too poor to field a dowry and there weren't enough husbands to go around for them all.
     
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  18. kasumigenx Well-Known Member

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    Anne of Navarre, the eldest did marry to John, the son of Gaston III de Foix(Foix-Candale), however her husband died in the war of the league of cognac, however the marriage is childless, so is her younger brother Charles of Navarre died in the League of Cognac..

    The husband of Anne of Navarre is a nephew of the Queen of Hungary, Anne of Foix-Candale..
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2017
  19. Kellan Sullivan Well-Known Member

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    Dec 9, 2012
    Exactly, in comparison to Catherine's own paternal aunts and uncles who all actually married - except the clerics and one of her sisters that the sources can't agree on if she died in infancy or not - (plus as far as cousin marriage was concerned, only one of them, her namesake aunt, Catherine, mother of the queen of Hungary, married a cousin, (and Jacques married Ana de Peralta, bastard daughter of Carlos of Viana).
     
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  20. kasumigenx Well-Known Member

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    May 26, 2009
    I actually thinking of a scenario wherein Anne of Navarre marries Henry VIII...if she did not give birth to a child to her husband, John of Foix-Candale, Comte of Astarac..would she give birth to children for Henry VIII.