WI. Henry V lives longer.

I've mulled over this a fair few times before, and more and more the conclusions I start to draw are that the war will begin turning against Henry V before he can complete it. It's not so much the Joan of Arc factor - I like to believe that he would probably find a way of drawing her out and defeating her on the field of battle - but that the Dauphin's forces were shaken out of a stupor by the 1430s, and the Burgundians were starting to tire of their alliance with the English, which is particularly important since it was Burgundian troops who were garrisoning the majority of northern France.

I wonder if Philip the Good wouldn't end up quarrelling with Henry - possibly going so far as to demand a crown as King of Burgundy for his troubles, thus also effectively ending the question of whether he actually wanted to be Henry/Charles' vassal - and one way or another I see Henry losing his most important ally.

If Philip turns to the Dauphin's side, things could go very wrong very fast. If Philip simply pulls out of the war and decides to stay neutral while he waits to see who wins, I see Henry running out of troops and men and only being able to fight the Dauphin to a standstill. What happens next is something I would greatly like to explore, but don't feel qualified enough to answer.

The other problem Henry has is that he uniformly failed to get any of the French nobility on his side - and why should he have, I guess. While he filled some of these vacancies by stocking several of the larger estates with loyal English nobles, there frankly aren't enough English nobles to hand out every estate, and honestly it would probably be wisest not to create a situation where the majority of the English nobles have greater land holdings in France than England, anyway. He largely had the support of the burghers and the religious leaders, but this was partly power-play and largely fear. Without any noble French supporters he really is going to struggle to hold the land for large periods. To have a chance of creating a lasting Anglo-French Kingdom - even to the end of the century - he really needs at least a thick brush-stroke of complicit French nobles, both to fill every manor vacated by the fleeing French lordlings and to sooth the peasants when they start blaming the King for everything that goes wrong. Problem is, I'm not sure where he can get this support from. A century earlier, Edward III might have been able to get it because there was some genuine support for his claim - the King of France (can't be bothered to look up the name, sorry) actually had to exile or imprison the entire University of Paris, because the law students and teachers there debated the subject and decided that Edward had the better claim. By the reign of Henry V, the French nobles have been indoctrinated enough to the idea of French nationalism and anti-English sentiment that no-one really wanted to take the risk and swap sides.

Except the French (and Burgundians even) were after peace and saw in Henry V an actual chance at peace. They did not protest at the Treaty of Troyes and at the time of his death Henry was negotiating with the Duke of Brittany and the Count of Foixe to bring them into the treaty. The Duke of Burgundy was on his side, having been promised vast lands in the north of France, and took his oath so seriously that it took a long long time for him to openly break it (necessitating a Papal legate etc). The treaty was firmed with the estates of both realms and nobles took oaths to Henry as heir of France.

With Henry V alive I can see the Dauphin either fleeing abroad or being quickly defeated, while Henry would almost immediately be crowned at Rheims. The birth of a son would only add to his triumph and already glorious reputation. Later on the Burgundians would cause trouble, no doubt, but I don't see them chasing Henry out of France altogether.
 
With Henry V alive I can see the Dauphin either fleeing abroad or being quickly defeated, while Henry would almost immediately be crowned at Rheims. The birth of a son would only add to his triumph and already glorious reputation. Later on the Burgundians would cause trouble, no doubt, but I don't see them chasing Henry out of France altogether.

Henry VI was born while his father was still alive. Didn't do much good.

And frankly, what resources is Henry using to "quickly defeat" the Dauphin?
 
Henry VI was born while his father was still alive. Didn't do much good.

And frankly, what resources is Henry using to "quickly defeat" the Dauphin?

He was born before his grandfather's death. Having a legitimate heir would make Henry V's position even better once Charles died.

He doesn't need resources other than what he's already got. His reputation and popularity versus the disinherited Dauphin's shame, alleged bastardy and control of Bourges' vicinity. Henry V brought the promise of peace, an end to the war, while the Dauphin was a guarantee of continued enmity against the dashing Henry V. The Dauphin would most likely flee abroad and leave everything behind for Henry V's taking.
 
He was born before his grandfather's death. Having a legitimate heir would make Henry V's position even better once Charles died.

He did have a legitimate heir. Having a second son isn't going to chagne that.

He doesn't need resources other than what he's already got. His reputation and popularity versus the disinherited Dauphin's shame, alleged bastardy and control of Bourges' vicinity. Henry V brought the promise of peace, an end to the war, while the Dauphin was a guarantee of continued enmity against the dashing Henry V. The Dauphin would most likely flee abroad and leave everything behind for Henry V's taking.

What popularity in France is this again?

Plus, if accepting the Lancaster claim meant peace, why didn't the French accept the infant Henry VI?
 
He was born before his grandfather's death. Having a legitimate heir would make Henry V's position even better once Charles died.

He doesn't need resources other than what he's already got. His reputation and popularity versus the disinherited Dauphin's shame, alleged bastardy and control of Bourges' vicinity. Henry V brought the promise of peace, an end to the war, while the Dauphin was a guarantee of continued enmity against the dashing Henry V. The Dauphin would most likely flee abroad and leave everything behind for Henry V's taking.


Not to mention with Henry V alive the war wouldn't start to stall. And parliament won't kick of a fight about funding the war in France if it keeps going England's way. I don't doubt that Charles VII/the Dauphin would eventually flee but is there any chance he could be captured in battle/a siege or killed? I mean it sound ASB but several French Kings have been captured in history. John/Jean II and Francis/François I come to mind.

Also,to Elfwine, it took about 13 years after Henry V's death for Burgundy to switch sides. Considering the fact that Henry V managed to conquer most of northern and central France in 6 years I feel that it won't take another 13 to conquer the south.
 
Not to mention with Henry V alive the war wouldn't start to stall. And parliament won't kick of a fight about funding the war in France if it keeps going England's way. I don't doubt that Charles VII/the Dauphin would eventually flee but is there any chance he could be captured in battle/a siege or killed? I mean it sound ASB but several French Kings have been captured in history. John/Jean II and Francis/François I come to mind.

I am not convinced that Henry V being around means the war is not going to stall. And Parliament may well kick up a fight at increasing costs with less to show for it.

Also,to Elfwine, it took about 13 years after Henry V's death for Burgundy to switch sides. Considering the fact that Henry V managed to conquer most of northern and central France in 6 years I feel that it won't take another 13 to conquer the south.

http://xenophongroup.com/montjoie/frmapm01.gif

Northern France, yes. Central, not so much.
 
He did have a legitimate heir. Having a second son isn't going to chagne that.

What popularity in France is this again?

Plus, if accepting the Lancaster claim meant peace, why didn't the French accept the infant Henry VI?

Having a legitimate heir and BEING ALIVE is what I'm getting at ;)

He was a strong ruler, capable diplomat and above all a great general. The Dauphin on the other hand was a murderer and likely a bastard. As I'm sure you know the "Lancaster claim" was actually a Valois-adoption claim. I'm also sure you can comprehend the inherent differences in being ruled by a nine month old king and a grown, proven general.
 
Having a legitimate heir and BEING ALIVE is what I'm getting at ;)

My point is, Henry's position won't be improved more by further sons than the one he already has - so Jr. being born before his grandfather's death is irrelevant.

He was a strong ruler, capable diplomat and above all a great general. The Dauphin on the other hand was a murderer and likely a bastard. As I'm sure you know the "Lancaster claim" was actually a Valois-adoption claim. I'm also sure you can comprehend the inherent differences in being ruled by a nine month old king and a grown, proven general.
I'm sure that if the idea is that Henry means peace that having a monarch too weak to do anything is just as good. If the idea is that Henry V can force his will on France, that he's a grown and proven general matters.

And I am using 'the Lancaster claim" to distinguish it from Valois (either the Dauphin or any alternatives - including Burgundy).

Also, likely a bastard? Based on what?

I haven't read as much as I'd like on Charles VII, so what the basis for those charges is is a mystery.
 
I am not convinced that Henry V being around means the war is not going to stall. And Parliament may well kick up a fight at increasing costs with less to show for it.

Henry being crowned King of France with the assent of the French Estates isn't exactly 'less to show for it'.
 
Henry being crowned King of France with the assent of the French Estates isn't exactly 'less to show for it'.

It is if that doesn't actually accomplish anything besides a fancy ceremony. Henry VI being crowned didn't do the Lancastrian position a lick of good - of course, it was probably too late by that point, but the point is that it didn't inspire Parliament to renewed efforts futile or otherwise.
 
My point is, Henry's position won't be improved more by further sons than the one he already has - so Jr. being born before his grandfather's death is irrelevant.

I'm sure that if the idea is that Henry means peace that having a monarch too weak to do anything is just as good. If the idea is that Henry V can force his will on France, that he's a grown and proven general matters.

And I am using 'the Lancaster claim" to distinguish it from Valois (either the Dauphin or any alternatives - including Burgundy).

Also, likely a bastard? Based on what?

I haven't read as much as I'd like on Charles VII, so what the basis for those charges is is a mystery.

The bastard rumor supposedly came from his mother, Isabeau of Bavaria. The rumor was that the Dauphin was the result of an affair between Isabeau and the Duc d'Orleans. She was apparently notorious for her extramarital affairs. Since declaring the Dauphin a bastard would be a pretty much slap in the face to Charles VI, I'm inclined to think that the rumor must have had some basis. I mean such an act would be acknowledging your wife had an affair and bastard, something that is not done lightly.

Henry being crowned King of France with the assent of the French Estates isn't exactly 'less to show for it'.

As much as I'm pro-English in the Hundred year's war, that really isn't much of a big deal. The idea for Henry VI's French Coronation came from John, Duke of Bedford, in response to Charles VI's own coronation. The French Estates assenting to his coronation means as much as the English Parliament voting funds to pay for the Kings English Coronation. It's fairly routine, and if they are pro-English, they aren't going to vote no, especially during this era of history.

It is if that doesn't actually accomplish anything besides a fancy ceremony. Henry VI being crowned didn't do the Lancastrian position a lick of good - of course, it was probably too late by that point, but the point is that it didn't inspire Parliament to renewed efforts futile or otherwise.

I have to agree with Elfwine. Henry VI's French Coronation was too little, to late. However, Henry V's crowning would be a whole different story, especially if it's following a major victory over the dauphin or his supporters.
 
The bastard rumor supposedly came from his mother, Isabeau of Bavaria. The rumor was that the Dauphin was the result of an affair between Isabeau and the Duc d'Orleans. She was apparently notorious for her extramarital affairs. Since declaring the Dauphin a bastard would be a pretty much slap in the face to Charles VI, I'm inclined to think that the rumor must have had some basis. I mean such an act would be acknowledging your wife had an affair and bastard, something that is not done lightly.

No, but it's not proof.

I have to agree with Elfwine. Henry VI's French Coronation was too little, to late. However, Henry V's crowning would be a whole different story, especially if it's following a major victory over the dauphin or his supporters.

Why? Henry still has the vast majority of France to convince to accept his rule.

That's the problem, there's a lot of work to do conquer France.
 
No, but it's not proof.



Why? Henry still has the vast majority of France to convince to accept his rule.

That's the problem, there's a lot of work to do conquer France.


No not proof. But rumors can be more damaging because that will always be in the back of peoples heads. Plus how are you going to get proof in the 15th century? They don't have DNA tests.;) I guess a servant could be produced that says we saw Orleans and the Queen in bed or hell Henry V had Orleans in custody. He could be 'persuaded' to admit to in affair with the Queen. Actually I wonder why the regents didn't do this OTL, unless they have the wrong Orleans in custody and its his father the rumors are talking about....

True he still has a lot to do. But who's more likely to finish the conquest, a Boy King who's rule is dominated by Regents who spend most of their time scheming against each other or a grown man who's proven his experience in war and diplomacy? Plus again, if the Dauphin can be captured, killed or somehow neutralized the war is pretty much over sine the next in line is already in English custody.
 
I don't really see how much of Franch would not be in English hands by, lets say 1425-27. The ducies would be back plus the other parts taken. leaving the east which could still be called France. Burgundy could be trouble but only if you let it. How about having a semi indepanent state like the Isle of Mann today? If the east is what is left let HRE have some of at least the threat of them having it?
Could a nice way to get them of side be a crusade. Taking back the Holy Land you can't back down from that. And the biggest thing, then as is now, money. You make alot more money by being at peace than making war.
As for the maybe Henry VI by 1440 he would be 18 Prince of Wales and Duke* of Cornwall, let him have a bash againest the Scots if needed?

* not sure when dukes replaced earls in England.

Edit thing. Any chance someone could make a possible map, or at least point me in the right direction?
 
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AndyC

Donor
Medieval England had four great Kings; William I, Edward I, Edward III, Henry V. All left heirs who weren't anywhere near as good. It's not just a question of reversion to the mean but also the reality that having a father who everyone regards as amazing is going to have some pretty noticeable psychological effects. It's no coincidence that the heirs of the four most warlike English Kings were also some of the least warlike English Kings. Having an impossible standard to live up to generally makes people give up and concentrate on other things, like piety or founding schools or whatever. So I think whatever happens Henry V's successor isn't going to be a patch on him.
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What about Henry II? Under him, the Plantagenet Empire reached to the Mediterranean, and he pressed home the rule of law, bringing England back from the Anarchy.
 
No not proof. But rumors can be more damaging because that will always be in the back of peoples heads. Plus how are you going to get proof in the 15th century? They don't have DNA tests.;) I guess a servant could be produced that says we saw Orleans and the Queen in bed or hell Henry V had Orleans in custody. He could be 'persuaded' to admit to in affair with the Queen. Actually I wonder why the regents didn't do this OTL, unless they have the wrong Orleans in custody and its his father the rumors are talking about....

Something other than speculation and gossip. If there's no real evidence, we shouldn't say he was one from the perspective of history.

True he still has a lot to do. But who's more likely to finish the conquest, a Boy King who's rule is dominated by Regents who spend most of their time scheming against each other or a grown man who's proven his experience in war and diplomacy? Plus again, if the Dauphin can be captured, killed or somehow neutralized the war is pretty much over sine the next in line is already in English custody.
I'd say neither is likely - 5% vs. say, 20-30%. And while Bedford was around, there was an at least an honest attempt to focus on France and someone trying to keep the other regents from each other's throats.

As for taking the Dauphin, capturing or killing him is easier said than done - Jean I (or II) was captured on the field of battle, show me a situaton where Charles VII is going to be risking himself like that.
 
Medieval England had four great Kings; William I, Edward I, Edward III, Henry V. All left heirs who weren't anywhere near as good.

William II whilst a character of dubious morality proved capable of hanging onto his father's conquests and of acquiring (and holding onto) the Duchy of Normandy when his eldest brother, Robert, went on crusade. Robert himself whilst not the man his father was able to hold onto Normandy until he went to the Holy Land where he didn't disgrace himself. The fact that on his return he was unable to reasume his control over his patrimony was more due to being confronted by more capable siblings than any personal failings.

I would also rate the first two Henrys as being very capable monarchs as well.
 
No not proof. But rumors can be more damaging because that will always be in the back of peoples heads. Plus how are you going to get proof in the 15th century? They don't have DNA tests.;) I guess a servant could be produced that says we saw Orleans and the Queen in bed or hell Henry V had Orleans in custody. He could be 'persuaded' to admit to in affair with the Queen. Actually I wonder why the regents didn't do this OTL, unless they have the wrong Orleans in custody and its his father the rumors are talking about....

...

Not going to make any difference. Under mediaeval law, a child was considered to be the lawful off spring of his mother's husband unless it could be clearly shown that either they weren't actually married at all ; or, that it was physically impossible for the husband to have had access to the woman at the necessary time. Note, that meant physical access, he had to be overseas or something, with no possibility of a secret return, bonk and away again. Even acknowledged impotence wasn't sufficient.


Of course, one can always use such allegations to sling mud. But the practical effect is unlikely to be great , bastardy was not considered a major defect (after all William I was an acknowledged bastard).
not sure when dukes replaced earls in England

They never did. Not even now. Consider, William, Duke of Cambridge; Edward Earl of Wessex.

Earls replaced eoldermen, but a long long time ago.
 
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