WI: Argive Coalition Defeat The Spartans at Mantinea in 418

[SlyDessertFox]

In 418, the still young and inexperienced Spartan King Agis gathered up his Peloponnesian army and marched out to save Tegea, the fall of which would have seriously threatened Spartan dominance over the Peloponnesian League. The Argive coalition, consisting of the Mantineans, Argives, and Athenians (for the Eleans had briefly withdrawan thier 3,000 troops due to a differing opinion in policy on where to attack) was about 9,000 men, with the Spartan army about 10,000.

Agis wanted to force a battle, knowing that once the Eleans returned, he would be outnumbered. The allied forces had taken up a strong defensive position on Mount Alesion, content to wait it out until the Eleans returned, but Agis surprised everyone by making a desperate charge up thhe slopes of Mount Alesion. It was certain to meet disaster (for charging straight up a hill at a phalanx of almost equal size is never going to succeed) until one of his advisors stopped the charge right before they were in spear throwing range-and they pulled back.

So what if the charge had continued, and the Spartan army was crushed at Mantinea? The fall of Tegea would certainly soon follow. Sparta would be in a terrible strateic position, cut off from its allies and Messenia, where the Athenians were poised to encourage an all out Helot revolt. Spartan prestige would have taken a fatal blow, likely along with its hegemony. This would almost certainly have brought a victory in the greater war to the Athenians and its friends and allies, and Spartan hegemony over the Peloponnesian League would be just about done for.

Thoughts?

 

[SlyDessertFox]

Bump....anyone?

 

[SlyDessertFox]

Really, nobody?

 

[NotYetRegistered]

If the Spartans had lost.. hm. Well, Sparta would've been permanently surrounded by the Athenian allies, would've lost its prestige permanently (it had been banned from participating during the Olympics before the battle) and would've been severely weakened, I think. Basically, everything you said, yeah. The cordon Athens had erected around Sparta would've survived.

 

[SlyDessertFox]

If the Spartans had lost.. hm. Well, Sparta would've been permanently surrounded by the Athenian allies, would've lost its prestige permanently (it had been banned from participating during the Olympics before the battle) and would've been severely weakened, I think. Basically, everything you said, yeah. The cordon Athens had erected around Sparta would've survived.

What does this mean overall for the Athenian Empire in the long run? The immediate effects obviously would be its almost unrivaled status in Greece, but how much do you think they could expand it? To Sicily maybe?

 

[NotYetRegistered]

With an Athenian victory, I suppose Sparta would send no/fewer reinforcements to Syracuse and the other Sicilian cities wouldn't be rallied to the cause of Syracuse. The Athenians had Syracuse beat until the arrival of the Spartans, so I can see them taking Syracuse and exerting hegemony over the nearby Greek cities. An Athenian victory would see Nicias probably rise in prestige and power in Athens. With the victory of Mantinea, maybe the Athenian allies would give more men.

Attacking Carthage would require an immense effort, of at least 10,000 men, I think. Not even Alcibiades could convince the Athenian Assembly of such a war and it would risk their hegemony in Greece.

I think the Athenians might expand into southern Italy, but that would really require an Athens wank.

 

[SlyDessertFox]

With an Athenian victory, I suppose Sparta would send no/fewer reinforcements to Syracuse and the other Sicilian cities wouldn't be rallied to the cause of Syracuse. The Athenians had Syracuse beat until the arrival of the Spartans, so I can see them taking Syracuse and exerting hegemony over the nearby Greek cities. An Athenian victory would see Nicias probably rise in prestige and power in Athens. With the victory of Mantinea, maybe the Athenian allies would give more men.

Attacking Carthage would require an immense effort, of at least 10,000 men, I think. Not even Alcibiades could convince the Athenian Assembly of such a war and it would risk their hegemony in Greece.

I think the Athenians might expand into southern Italy, but that would really require an Athens wank.

I agree, they couldn't attack Carthage. Taking southern Italy as you said, would be really pushing it. Though I wonder, how will the other states deal with an almost un-challenged Athenian empire that they will be a part of. I can see Corinth (whether or not they are actually in the empire or not) trying to stir up trouble again and get the Boeotians and Megarans to join join them, and possibly get some support from Macedon.

 

[NotYetRegistered]

I agree, they couldn't attack Carthage. Taking southern Italy as you said, would be really pushing it. Though I wonder, how will the other states deal with an almost un-challenged Athenian empire that they will be a part of. I can see Corinth (whether or not they are actually in the empire or not) trying to stir up trouble again and get the Boeotians and Megarans to join join them, and possibly get some support from Macedon.

Well, Persia would be very glad to be rid of such a powerful Athens, so they would probably fund the enemies of Athens with a shit ton of money. I guess their dominance would be challenged soon after the battle of Mantinea, yeah.

 

[formion]

What if the battle didn't happen in the slopes , which was very stupid not only by logic but by the military customs of the hoplite army . Spartans where not great strategists ( except Brasidas and Lysander) but they where exceptional tacticians in traditional hoplite battles .

Let's try to make an Athenian victory happen .

I think , that Alcibiades is the keystone . He is far greater diplomat than Laches and Nicostratus . If he was elected general in that term , he could hold the aliance with Eleans , who wanted the allied army to strike not near the heart of Sparta but to attack Lepreum in their borders.

In that case we have an extra 3000 hoplites for the athenian army .

This is in reach of Alcibiades capabilities.

The wild guess is if Alcibiades could turn the athenian minds in strongly supporting the campaign . 1000 hoplites is a far too low number for an athenian participation. Another 2000 men would be easy for Athens to muster and send to Argos and then to the arcadian battlefields. The trick is to persuade the public opinion to send their citizens in the gates of Sparta , in an unique operation in the eyes of athenian strategy .

Well , he managed the sicilian expedition , so it could be possible.

So , with Eleans and more Athenians , the battle can be definitely won .


After that , all bets are off . The logical thing is to make peace , but the athenian Demos was renowned for illlogical decisions