What Would Hideyoshi Do if He Conquered China?

[Remitonov]

Oh, sure. Samurai were a severely outnumbered minority in Japan. Jurchen were a severely outnumbered minority in China, and so were Manchu.
The Qing army was 24 banners, of 60 000 Manchu, 60 000 Mongols and 60 000 Chinese, and Green Standard Army of 600 000 Chinese.
Out of the 60 000 Manchu soldiers of the 8 Banners, how many did Qing leave at home in Manchuria, and how many were deployed in China Proper? Inclusive of Beijing and vicinity?

Probably not too many. Last I checked, they relied a lot on Han officials to run the country thereafter.

But yea, he could probably stuff a lot of samurai in key positions in the Chinese administration to control the area. I doubt it'll be very effective in the long run though. If anything, he's recreating the same conditions that had plagued several Chinese dynasties in the past, giving local lords autonomous powers and setting a precedent of a country divided into many petty states (ironically the case for Sengoku Japan). If some got ideas and gained support from the locals (likely by assimilation into Chinese society)...

 

[chornedsnorkack]

Probably not too many. Last I checked, they relied a lot on Han officials to run the country thereafter.

But yea, he could probably stuff a lot of samurai in key positions in the Chinese administration to control the area. I doubt it'll be very effective in the long run though. If anything, he's recreating the same conditions that had plagued several Chinese dynasties in the past, giving local lords autonomous powers and setting a precedent of a country divided into many petty states (ironically the case for Sengoku Japan). If some got ideas and gained support from the locals (likely by assimilation into Chinese society)...

Would he hand out China as autonomous fiefs, though?
China had a tradition of centralized government. And the Manchu mostly kept it, under the control of Regent/Emperor. They gave a few fiefs - all of them seem to have been to Chinese collaborators (Three Feudatories). For some reason, Manchu princes and nobles did not get fiefs in China, and remained commanders/officials who were appointed and could be freely reassigned.

In 1592/1593, it looked like Japan had firm control of Korea. Was Korea parcelled into fiefs promised to specific Japanese daimyo?

 

[caliph]

Apparently his plan was to conquer India after conquering China, although I'm not sure how soon he'd get round to it.

That's what he was planning to do, but if he did conquer China, he'd have a hard time consolidating power to begin with, and then he'd realize that conquering China was not as easy as he'd thought, also that China may be bigger than he expexted, and that reaching India through China with an army was also a lot harder than he had realised before. If he with the help of whatever diety you may believe in did manage to conquer China (which is borderline impossible without a serious amount of help from inside the Chinese Army, State and Bureaucracy) then he'd probably see that it's time to take his winnings, and stop gambling any further

 

[Faeelin]

The Japanese didn't know when they started that they couldn't handle Korea (and but for turtleships and the best Admiral in history, they very possibly could have) and have never been great at interacting with foreign cultures.

The Japanese navy really, really, sucked. It wasn't just Admiral Yi, it was the entire Korean navy.

 

[chornedsnorkack]

The Japanese navy really, really, sucked.

Whatever became of wako?

 

[Remitonov]

The Japanese navy really, really, sucked. It wasn't just Admiral Yi, it was the entire Korean navy.

Unfortunately, Yi was the only person who could competently lead the navy. Pretty much the rest of the Korean leadership ended up losing fleets by sheer stupidity, like allowing the Japanese to board their vessels where their warriors would excel in close quarters.

Whatever became of wako?

The wako by then were mixed crews with mostly Chinese and Koreans serving with Japanese, though the name still fits, given their operating bases in the Japanese isles.

 

[chornedsnorkack]

The wako by then were mixed crews with mostly Chinese and Koreans serving with Japanese, though the name still fits, given their operating bases in the Japanese isles.

Were any Korean and Chinese wako in Hideyoshi´s service pre-1592?

 

[Remitonov]

Were any Korean and Chinese wako in Hideyoshi´s service pre-1592?

Not that I know of. In any case, they're pirates. They don't exactly serve any lord, merely collaborate with them as 'business partners', including corrupt Chinese officials.

 

[chornedsnorkack]

Not that I know of. In any case, they're pirates. They don't exactly serve any lord, merely collaborate with them as 'business partners', including corrupt Chinese officials.

And a lot of Japanese daimyo on land were used to being essentially independent of any outside authority in Sengoku period, collaborating with Ashikaga shogun or Oda Nobunaga merely as "business partners".

 

[Guardian54]

Administering an empire the size of China with pre-semaphore towers communications, and more realistically pre-telegraph, is LAUGHABLE. PARTICULARLY when you have a huge country with a long history being lorded over by what it has always seen as piddly upstarts.

And let's not forget that Kanji literally means "Chinese text", so China won the culture war long before Japan even noticed there was one.

Japan (actually, most nations that weren't large enough to be too distracted by the monumental task of holding together) had serious problems with megalomania outbreaks in its leadership that weren't cured until 1945 at the earliest estimate. Hideyoshi didn't comprehend the non-minor fact that China didn't have the problem of BAD IRON that Japan did, and thus actually had good metal for its weapons, among other things...

 

[Dorozhand]

An early collapse of Ming following Japanese success against Korea (butterfly Yi Sun-sin) could very well result in a lucky Toyotomi conquering the north Chinese plain for at least some time. The Ming navy was a dilapidated shell by this time, with docks unused and infrastructure falling apart, which the Japanese navy may well have been able to destroy and from there make a decisive attack on the mainland. Any collapse of Ming will result in numerous independent characters and forces with numerous motives and objectives, some of which would no doubt be willing to serve the Japanese if their bid seemed promising or if alternatives seemed worse or more hopeless. As others have said, Toyotomi in Beijing would likely have made himself emperor, chose a new name for the country, and settled in to digest his conquests, however extensive they might be. Indeed, I could see a Toyotomi-controlled empire stretching from the Hexi to Korea with Southern Ming ruling south of the Huai. The Chinese would likely thence see the Sino-Japanese ruling class as Jurchen from the Sea, but likely as not give a nod to his holding of the heavenly mandate like Ming did with Yuan.

 

[Gasmask134]

I dunno, although from the accounts I've read of the Imjin War he does seem a little crazy. Maybe he had some sort of illness causing his mental faculties to decline? Or else he'd gotten so used to winning he ended up succumbing to megalomania?

Late in his life he had syphillis.

Edit: Also, iirc he claimed he got the idea of invading China and Korea from Oda Nobunaga

 

[Dorozhand]

That's what he was planning to do, but if he did conquer China, he'd have a hard time consolidating power to begin with, and then he'd realize that conquering China was not as easy as he'd thought, also that China may be bigger than he expexted, and that reaching India through China with an army was also a lot harder than he had realised before. If he with the help of whatever diety you may believe in did manage to conquer China (which is borderline impossible without a serious amount of help from inside the Chinese Army, State and Bureaucracy) then he'd probably see that it's time to take his winnings, and stop gambling any further

People have conquered large areas of China with less than Toyotomi would have had at his disposal. Assuming a scenario with a successful Korean campaign and uncontested Toyotomi control over Japan, a force large enough to bring the North Chinese Plain under his control could have succeeded under fortuitous circumstances, such as an early collapse or fragmentation of Ming. The Ming state was in such terminal administrative and military decline by this period that I wouldn't be surprised if a large scale Japanese invasion from the sea would have triggered a collapse itself. This is of course discounting Toyotomi conquest of South China, a different beast entirely as the Jurchen discovered their first time around, and India is right out even in the best case scenarios, although if he had somehow managed to conquer all of China and found his own dynasty, a successor might have tried to go after Bengal and Hindustan through Burma and Tibet as a fulfillment of his predecessor's dream.

What I'm saying is that a scenario similar to the one which played out between the Jin, Northern Song, and Liao in the 12th century could have occurred between Ming, Japan, and Korea.

 

[RogueTraderEnthusiast]

Hideyoshi didn't comprehend the non-minor fact that China didn't have the problem of BAD IRON that Japan did, and thus actually had good metal for its weapons, among other things...

The idea of Japanese Samurai with higher quality equipment is more than a little terrifying, simply because of the absurd discipline/practice.

But assuming Japan somehow gets around the Korean problem (hilariously if the communications between Korea and Japan weren't constantly being edited by the messengers, it could have been better) - perhaps by copying Yi, or Yi dies whilst on the northern borders of Korea - I could see Hideyoshi inviting the Manchu to assist him in China - there is certainly enough fighting to do, and loot to split. I can see that being the way that Japan achieves victory, which creates an interesting China, but China really is as far as it gets. To "Japanise" China would be terrifyingly difficult. You'd need the Manchu to devestate the North China plain, huge numbers of Chinese men to be conscripted into armies against Japans enemies, all the while having Japanese settlers form large Japanese-Chinese families.

I can see it working with settler-Daimyo, but it'll be messy, and slow, and hard. As in, "Go son, go to China, claim land for your/our clan, and if they don't behave as expected, kill them until they do", kind of brutal.

But I can see a Manchu N.China Plain, and Japanese settlers in SE and NE China/Korea. But to keep China under control? All the men of fighting age that aren't Japanese are going to need to be sent to the front, but with who? Indochina? I know Vietnam is a meat-grinder, but are we seriously going to go with the might of China purposely ground into the region isn't enough?

Honestly, I can see it happening, and I can see Chinese culture replaced with a hybrid one that emerges with a very Japanese bent, but it'll be a bloodbath.

 

[Faeelin]

What's the big advantage Japan has that lets it conquer China? It failed to do this in the 20th century, when it had an army with air and naval superiority and heavy equipment.

 

[chornedsnorkack]

Administering an empire the size of China with pre-semaphore towers communications, and more realistically pre-telegraph, is LAUGHABLE. PARTICULARLY when you have a huge country with a long history being lorded over by what it has always seen as piddly upstarts.

And let's not forget that Kanji literally means "Chinese text", so China won the culture war long before Japan even noticed there was one.

Manchu did it. As did Ming, Mongols, Jurchen, Song, Tang, Jin, Han...

 

[Guardian54]

To the guy who argued for breeding a hybrid race, you're talking Japanese men getting colossal harems, and assuming the massive all-Chinese armies will actually not mutiny and zerg rush the Japanese into oblivion. You are also tempting me to make the genocide coming up circa 1947-1948 in my own TL more complete.

What's the big advantage Japan has that lets it conquer China? It failed to do this in the 20th century, when it had an army with air and naval superiority and heavy equipment.

Masses of AH.com weeaboos.

Manchu did it. As did Ming, Mongols, Jurchen, Song, Tang, Jin, Han...

They had the Mandate of Heaven concept and left local administration mostly in place and in local cultures' hands. They were also jsut about the most decentralized realms on Earth in their time.

The Japanese might exploit the first, but they have no comprehension of any cultures that aren't a variation of Japanese. They will epicly fail the latter, and that will be their downfall.

 

[Zireael]

To the guy who argued for breeding a hybrid race, you're talking Japanese men getting colossal harems,

I'm fairly sure the Chinese emperors and noblemen of the period had colossal harems. So did the Japanese, actually: http://www.wikiwand.com/en/Emperor_Go-Yōzei
http://www.wikiwand.com/en/Toyotomi_Hideyoshi

 

[Guardian54]

I'm fairly sure the Chinese emperors and noblemen of the period had colossal harems. So did the Japanese, actually

The Chinese were fine with themselves and those they perceived as "us" having colossal harems.

Someone as obviously "other" as the Japanese or Mongols who are snooty about it (e.g. Yuan) will get the sort of mass revolt as the Yuan dynasty. It is inevitable. China has far too much cultural momentum and sheer power/size to even twitch when Japan in any time pre-1850s tries any damned thing.

 

[frustrated progressive]

What the hell? That's literally insane. I guess he could conquer lands in the "Indosphere", but not India proper.

In fairness, that's what they said about Alexander, although his plans were more feasible than Hideyoshi's.