What if the bayonet was invented earlier?

[tallwingedgoat]

The bayonet was a transformative weapon from the 1700s on. But this required no technological breakthrough. What if armies just started putting pointy ends on matchlocks back in the 16th century?

The pike formations would disappear earlier. Firearms replace cold weapons sooner, and infantry manuervers become more fluid.

 

[mowque]

The bayonet was a transformative weapon from the 1700s on. But this required no technological breakthrough.

Actually it did take many years to develop a bayonet that could be used while still being able to fire.

 

[tallwingedgoat]

Actually it did take many years to develop a bayonet that could be used while still being able to fire.

Yes, but it's easy to do. What if it's done much earlier?

 

[Fenrir_Angerboda]

The bayonet was a transformative weapon from the 1700s on. But this required no technological breakthrough. What if armies just started putting pointy ends on matchlocks back in the 16th century?

The pike formations would disappear earlier. Firearms replace cold weapons sooner, and infantry manuervers become more fluid.

the first Bayonets were Plug types, supposed started when French irregulars ran out of ammo and powder and jammed their Knives into the Gun barrels.

the Technological breakthrough for the Bayonet was developing one that could fit over the gunbarrel.

get someone to realize that early on, and that's a start.

 

[cra0422]

The bayonet came about due to advancements in firearms. With the matchlock firearms taking time to fire, pikemen were needed to provide defensive protection while said weapons were reloaded and prepared. With the development of the flintlock musket (which was faster and safer than the matchlock) the bayonet was developed and the role of the pikemen disappeared

 

[tallwingedgoat]

the first Bayonets were Plug types, supposed started when French irregulars ran out of ammo and powder and jammed their Knives into the Gun barrels.

the Technological breakthrough for the Bayonet was developing one that could fit over the gunbarrel.

get someone to realize that early on, and that's a start.

Yes, I'm well aware of the history. But you don't need any gradual technological evolution. People have been making matchlock combo weapons for a long time. Usually it's in the form of a musket and axe. It's a simple matter to put a spear point on a barrel that's offset from the bore.

Though the socket bayonet was invented in the late 1600s, the Prussian army under Frederick the Great prefered permanently fixed bayonets, which any village blacksmith can fix to a barrel.

 

[Fenrir_Angerboda]

Yes, I'm well aware of the history. But you don't need any gradual technological evolution. People have been making matchlock combo weapons for a long time. Usually it's in the form of a musket and axe. It's a simple matter to put a spear point on a barrel that's offset from the bore.

Though the socket bayonet was invented in the late 1600s, the Prussian army under Frederick the Great prefered permanently fixed bayonets, which any village blacksmith can fix to a barrel.

and yet no one made one until after the Plug Bayonet proved to be inefficient.

the Axe-pistol does have a disadvantage against the Pike or Bayonet, wouldn't it?
the Pike or Bayonet have a better reach, and don't require much space to used.

as for Permanently fixed bayonets, that has it's own trouble.
bayonet gets damaged, the whole weapon has to go in to be repaired.
a plug or ring Bayonet breaks, it's easy to replace, and it doesn't mean sending the gun in to fix.

 

[MNP]

Though the socket bayonet was invented in the late 1600s, the Prussian army under Frederick the Great prefered permanently fixed bayonets, which any village blacksmith can fix to a barrel.

Doesn't that make it even harder to aim properly since the weight of the barrel is so awkward? I mean shooting in front of you, not actually aiming beyond 50 yards.

 

[Sachyriel]

In this thread we will talk about reinventing the pointy stick.

The stick itself contains a mechanism for firing high-velocity pieces of metal, but it is of no consequence, the real deal here is the pointy part.

I think that perhaps the bayonet could have been invented a different way: Put a bayonet on a crossbow.

A crossbow comes before a gun, historically speaking and if there is a tradition of pointy sticks on a device that shoots different pointy sticks then when a gun is made someone will ask "Hey, where's the pointy stick?". Then the gunmakers add a socket for knives as a standard.

I do not know who invented the crossbow, and why they did not think to add a pointy stick, but it would be a plausible addition to a TL, no ASBs required.

 

[Elfwine]

Trying to imagine wielding a crossbow with a bayonet - er, pointy stick.

 

[Sachyriel]

Trying to imagine wielding a crossbow with a bayonet - er, pointy stick.

It is placed as not to interfere with the firing of any bolts, underneath the body probably, rather than on top as to not interfere with aiming; removable like todays bayonets its probably a straight knife. Like bayonets on guns, the pointy part is probably used when you are out of ammo, in the crosssbows case this means out of bolts.

 

[tallwingedgoat]

as for Permanently fixed bayonets, that has it's own trouble.
bayonet gets damaged, the whole weapon has to go in to be repaired.
a plug or ring Bayonet breaks, it's easy to replace, and it doesn't mean sending the gun in to fix.

If it was good enough for the Prussian army, it's good enough.

Doesn't that make it even harder to aim properly since the weight of the barrel is so awkward? I mean shooting in front of you, not actually aiming beyond 50 yards.

The concept of aiming muskets was not invented until much later. Muskets were area weapons. Soldiers were only supposed to point it in the direction of the enemy formation, close their eyes and shoot.

I think that perhaps the bayonet could have been invented a different way: Put a bayonet on a crossbow.

Crossbows were different. They had a stirup upfront for the foot.

 

[MNP]

The concept of aiming muskets was not invented until much later. Muskets were area weapons. Soldiers were only supposed to point it in the direction of the enemy formation, close their eyes and shoot.

Crossbows were different. They had a stirup upfront for the foot.

That's what I mean. Wouldn't it drag the musket so it pointed at the ground to a troublesome extent? That's why I said "aim" meant pointing it in front of you not at anything just not at the ground.

As for Crossbows you also have non-stirrup crossbows, windlass (which did and didn't have stirrups) and the crank ones that you turn clockwise via gears. I do think it would be unlikely to put a bayonet on a crossbow though. Even the fastest firing ones you don't have the time to stab with it.

 

[Sachyriel]

That's what I mean. Wouldn't it drag the musket so it pointed at the ground to a troublesome extent? That's why I said "aim" meant pointing it in front of you not at anything just not at the ground.

As for Crossbows you also have non-stirrup crossbows, windlass (which did and didn't have stirrups) and the crank ones that you turn clockwise via gears. I do think it would be unlikely to put a bayonet on a crossbow though. Even the fastest firing ones you don't have the time to stab with it.

Unless you're out of ammo and don't have time to draw your other blade.

 

[Elfwine]

Still leaves the question of how you wield the crossbow+Bayonet.

Attachment is one thing, use is another.

 

[Sachyriel]

Still leaves the question of how you wield the crossbow+Bayonet.

Attachment is one thing, use is another.

Stabbing motion I believe, thought a good slice can be effective as well. There maybe more drag on the frame of the crossbow but if the blade is sharp the air resistance is negligible.

I can be wrong, but I think crossbow bayonets would increase the likelyhood of bayonets on guns.

 

[archaeogeek]

If it was good enough for the Prussian army, it's good enough.



The concept of aiming muskets was not invented until much later. Muskets were area weapons. Soldiers were only supposed to point it in the direction of the enemy formation, close their eyes and shoot.

That's a stupid myth. The concept of aiming muskets was present from the very start and the earliest musket drills called for shot training at 200 yards. Not aiming is the best way to get your volley to fire above the heads of the enemy.
It's just that it became harder to aim accurately as drills asked for faster shot.

 

[Elfwine]

Stabbing motion I believe, thought a good slice can be effective as well. There maybe more drag on the frame of the crossbow but if the blade is sharp the air resistance is negligible.

I can be wrong, but I think crossbow bayonets would increase the likelyhood of bayonets on guns.

So you would hold a crossbow like you hold a gun to stab?

Somehow that seems awkward.

 

[Fenrir_Angerboda]

If it was good enough for the Prussian army, it's good enough.

and yet it was not widely adopted by the Other military forces of the time......

 

[RGB]

and yet it was not widely adopted by the Other military forces of the time......

And considering that the Prussians weren't really all that good at the actual bayonet fights...

/beats Fermor's drum.