Does anyone have more detailed information on the German forces occupying Denmark at this time? I have tried to find more information but almost any source that seemed useful was in Swedish.
Something very close to this actually happened with the Italian island of Lampedusa. Early on 12 June 1943, Flt. Sgt. Sydney Cohen made a forced landing on Lampedusa due to running out of fuel, and part of the garrison surrendered to him. (The garrison formally surrendered to a landing party of the Coldstream Guards about 9 AM.)
True dat. Also, I just looked over the wiki for the Swedish navy of 1945. If the Germans had ammo and fuel enough for Prinz Eugen, Nürnberg, the 4 destroyers etc. then the Swedes would have been in for a warm welcome indeed. The Swedes'd have to go Alexandria or Taranto on the German squadron before crossing the Øresund, if that was even possible for them. But if they have only these trawlers you mention, I suppose the point is moot anyway.
But I do really like this idea for this particular POD. I had absolutely no idea until now that there was a "Rädda Danmark"-discussion in '45. Interesting! It would be cool to make it work in a TL. The timing is essential. Could the Brits for example get ships over there to help the Swedes? They could at the very least bomb the German ships from the air (trying not to hit too many harbor facilities the Swedes might wanna use).
Deleted member 2186
That would be nice to see, a battle between the Prinz Eugen and Nürnberg versus Oscar II and Tapperheten.
Well, I guess eventually they might succumb to Swedish numbers, or a lucky torpedo hit, but the Swedes would pay a heavy price. For example, Tapperheten apparently had only two 8"/21 cm guns installed in 1940 and it could sail all of a whopping 16 knots. PE in comparison had eight 8" guns and could go at 32 knots.
I can kind of understand the Swedish captains if they went: "So you want us to risk half our ships so we in return can have champagne with Montgomery after his victory parade in Copenhagen? Er ... no."
But it would make for a great movie
Deleted member 2186
I wonder why the Royal Swedish Navy not had replaced Oscar II and Tapperheten with the slightly more modern Sverige-class coastal defence ship, is it because the Swedish believe that both Oscar II and Tapperheten are only going to be used as bombardment ships and not as ships that would see any German naval encounter, the Swedish planner know that both Prinz Eugen and Nürnberg are still intact and ready to engage.Well, I guess eventually they might succumb to Swedish numbers, or a lucky torpedo hit, but the Swedes would pay a heavy price. For example, Tapperheten apparently had only two 8"/21 cm guns installed in 1940 and it could sail all of a whopping 16 knots. PE in comparison had eight 8" guns and could go at 32 knots.
I can kind of understand the Swedish captains if they went: "So you want us to risk half our ships so we in return can have champagne with Montgomery after his victory parade in Copenhagen? Er ... no."
But it would make for a great movie
Not really. Sweden had plenty of coastal artillery that could take on those ships:
On the western Scanian coast, 1945, Sweden had gathered:
South of Malmö:
12x15,2cm m/37 and 21cm m/42 mobile artillery guns (the 21cm was mobile but not tactically so, which the 15,2cm was).
HMS Äran (the armoured ship HMS Äran's engines were worn out and she could not move by her own power, but she was towed and used as a floating coastal battery. she had 2x1x21cm and 6x1x15,2cm).
At Landskrona (about halfway between Malmö and Helsingborg):
4x15,2cm m/37 guns
North and south of Helsingborg:
16x15,2cm emplaced heavy coastal artillery guns (4 in each Batteri Helsingborg, Batteri Viken, Batteri Trelleborg and Batteri Ystad).
9x21cm m/42 guns (3 batteries of 3 guns each)
18x15,2cm m/37 (2 battalions of 9 guns each)
The mobile guns were from I/KA2 and I/KA4 (KA = Kustartilleri, coastal artillery regiment).
HMS Oscar II and HMS Tapperheten were to provide mobile fire support for the landing. They were to be protected by 7 destroyers, 6 MTBs, 16 minesweepers and 6 patrol boats.
For naval support and taking out enemy ships most of the Swedish navy would be available, including the three Sverige class armoured ships and 10 destroyers.
I'm not disputing the German ships would be sunk, but the coastal batteries will likely play only a minor role to that end - if the Germans sortie at all.
IIRC, all of the Swedish guns, including the 11inchers on the Sverige class, are older and have less range than Prinz Eugen's 8 inch guns. And the Swedish ships are generally slower - much slower. So in a direct firefight with the entire German squadron the Swedes might easily lose several destroyers, one of Oscar II and Tapperheten very likely and at least one Sverige class heavily damaged, along with whatever coastal batteries were reduced, as well.
If the Germans do manage to sortie, the Swedes' best tactics as I see it (if they would like to keep one of their capital ships from being lost) would then be to go in first with a concerted destroyer attack. The goal would be to risk that to get the two big German ships with a barrage of torpedoes ... all while the Sverige class ships and the bigger coastal batteries fire at the Germans from their best distance in order to restrict the German squadron's searoom - more than it already is in the narrows of Øresund!
As said, most of the Germans ships will almost certainly be sunk but the Swedes will take casualties in ships (added to the many soldiers in the invasion force), and all of which will be missed very much after the war and with a very confident Soviet neighbor across the Baltic - and for what? Champagne with Montgomery in the city hall of Copenhagen?
If they wanted that champagne it would be far less costly to bomb the Germans ships to wrecks while in harbor or perhaps even organize a sabotage mission along with the Danish resistance. Or just stay out until the British had done the job?
As the OP says: Only on 4 May the Swedes had set the "earliest date" for the invasion at May 18. I wonder why ...
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The Germans lacked fuel for their ships so PE and N would be of limited operational effect except as floating batteries. Both were at Copenhagen harbour.
The third cruiser Leipzig had been badly damaged in a collision with PE being present in Haderslev but not of much fighting value. It was offered to the Danish Navy post war which didn't want it due to needed repairs and lack of crew seamen; then loaded with chemical weapons and scuttled in the North Sea.
The German Navy may have had a number of light forces probably being as aggressive as ever which would frustrated Swedish operations if they could get fuelled.
The Luftwaffe had more then 1000 aircraft in Denmark at the time of surrender though quite a number were fugitived from other areas of operations. This may provide the real obstacle to operations in Denmark though it will be hampered by lack of fuel.
The Heer had some 300,000 troops in place. 1 reserve Pz Division, 5 Infantry divisions of varying standart and some Hugarian troops and a Russian brigade. Most of the troops were in Jutland.
I don't see the Germans expecting much happening in the East of Denmark and then you have the 1. Para Brigade in Britain waiting to be dropped on Copenhagen Airport to seize that and recieve the surrender of the Germans in Denmark.
The third cruiser Leipzig had been badly damaged in a collision with PE being present in Haderslev but not of much fighting value. It was offered to the Danish Navy post war which didn't want it due to needed repairs and lack of crew seamen; then loaded with chemical weapons and scuttled in the North Sea.
The German Navy may have had a number of light forces probably being as aggressive as ever which would frustrated Swedish operations if they could get fuelled.
The Luftwaffe had more then 1000 aircraft in Denmark at the time of surrender though quite a number were fugitived from other areas of operations. This may provide the real obstacle to operations in Denmark though it will be hampered by lack of fuel.
The Heer had some 300,000 troops in place. 1 reserve Pz Division, 5 Infantry divisions of varying standart and some Hugarian troops and a Russian brigade. Most of the troops were in Jutland.
I don't see the Germans expecting much happening in the East of Denmark and then you have the 1. Para Brigade in Britain waiting to be dropped on Copenhagen Airport to seize that and recieve the surrender of the Germans in Denmark.
I figured as much ... and what the hell can they do if the war draws out and there is fighting in Denmark mid-May? Sail out and get sunk? IIRC they had block ships, so if the Germans had the motivation to fight at all, they'd use those to close some harbor entrances and then let the ships fire as long as possible against invaders.
By the way, what kind of POD would we need to have the Germans continue fighting in Denmark and Norway? Hitler going to his Alpenfestung instead of dying in Berlin, and then issuing a plethora of 'stand fast'-directives every day he is still in radio contact with his scattered forces?
As timelines go this one sounds as if it would play out to be a great tragedy and perhaps a humiliation for Sweden. With an earlier PoD could Sweden have prepared better for such an amphibious operation? Maybe from the mid war years procuring better German aircraft, especially fighters. Or could the Western allies have provided long range air support for the invasion with P51s and Mosquitos? I like the idea of an invitation from the German garrison on Bornholm though.
Hitler having some stroke of inspiration of him standing on the highest peak in the Alps surrounded by the flames of war directing the Armies and awaiting Göttedämmerung on Saturday 28. April 1945 leaving Berlin with Hannah Reitsch. That along Hitlers knowledge of Himmlers betrayal would have the Nazis go insane in maintaining the wareffort and ruthlessly eliminate anybody opposing it!
The Allied airforces had 708 bombers and 618 fighters flying across the North Sea on 2. April 1945 to take out the Luftwaffe bases in Denmark and bomb the major Kriegsmarine units at Copenhagen but the operation was cancelled due to bad weather. However such an operation could be carried out to aid the Swedish landing and airlifting 1. Para Brigade to Copenhagen Airfield. Then the Swedish would probably be landing with the Germans surrendering all around them.
There would be glory for the Swedes even in such a scenario; they had managed to take part in the showdown even if in the eleventh hour.
I don't know about Swedish ability to build and assemble an invasion fleet though they did have lots of difficulties in procuring the hardware for the expansion of the airforce and during the war constantly tried making deals with Germany for procurement of modern aircraft or at least getting licences for building modern engines like the DB605 which eventually was used in the J21 in 1945.
The 28cm M/12 on the Sverige class had a range of 29 000 meters after the 1938-39 refit. The 15,2cm M/40 of the fixed batteries had a range of 24 000 meters.
The 21cm M/42 mobile coastal artillery had a range of 30 000 meters. The 15,2cm M/37 mobile coastal artillery had a range of 23 000 meters.
All of those could do serious damage to the Prinz Eugen, especially the 28cm M/12 - since they could fire 4 shots per minute, the amount of shells per minute from the three Sveriges would quickly overwhelm Prinz Eugen in any kind of fight.
The Swedish artillery had prepared calculations for the German ships in the port of Copenhagen, the German coastal artillery and many of the defensive installations - remember that Öresund is 3 500 to 20 000 meters wide at the releveant section.
The German coastal artillery:
At Helsingör:
1x10,5cm coastal gun
1x15cm coastal gun
At Hesbjerg:
4x15cm coastal guns
At Hornbaek:
4x12cm coastal guns
At Nivå:
4x7,5cm guns
The invasion is stupid because Sweden lacks the ability to land in face of any kind of resistance. German ships and coastal artillery are not a problem.
Deleted member 2186
Maybe the Swedish think that there will be no major combat and that at the near sight of Free Danish and Swedish troops coming ashore the Germans will just trow away their weapons and surrender.
My wiki says 24K meters max for the 28cm M/12 after refit, but it is kind of beside the point. Only a few ships ever hit anything at that range in World War II and as you say, Øresund is not nearly wide enough to make it realistic that direct ship-to-ship encounters at that distance would comprise a major part of a scenario we are talking about here. Unless the Germans managed to break out into Køge Bugt and further out into the Baltic, which would make the presence of Swedish coastal artillery moot.
But remember the context: If this Battle of the Øresund, May 1945, ever came to pass it's going to be a real mess with mines, destroyers, coastal artillery on both sides and quite a few fighters/bombers from both sides. But without any other context, yes, I'm certainly sure the 3 Sverige class ships would "overwhelm" Prinz Eugen eventually!
We agree on that! Yaay!
And we agree on the fact that the whole invasion, for reasons given elsewhere and at length in this thread, is kind of pointless.
The only realistic motivation I can think of for the Swedes to risk their ships and soldiers would be, as lordroel suggested, if they are absolutely sure that they will get some "glory" - however that price is transmogrified into something politically and economically worthwhile for the Swedes.
Maybe a critical number of Swedish politicians suddenly feeling guilty about allowing German troops and iron ore to flow during the war? OTOH they also did a number of similar things for the Allies and was a haven for many Jewish refugees, so ... maybe not.
@lordroel, did you find out what the original motivation was for the Swedes to actually plan for this?
Deleted member 2186
Not that i can find so quickly, but will try to dig it up, would also like to know why Sweden that was neutral and did not help the Allies during the Norway campaign in 1940 has interest in liberating Denmark knowing that the war is almost over and this is most likely not even needed at all.
My wiki says 24K meters max for the 28cm M/12 after refit, but it is kind of beside the point. Only a few ships ever hit anything at that range in World War II and as you say, Øresund is not nearly wide enough to make it realistic that direct ship-to-ship encounters at that distance would comprise a major part of a scenario we are talking about here. Unless the Germans managed to break out into Køge Bugt and further out into the Baltic, which would make the presence of Swedish coastal artillery moot.
But remember the context: If this Battle of the Øresund, May 1945, ever came to pass it's going to be a real mess with mines, destroyers, coastal artillery on both sides and quite a few fighters/bombers from both sides. But without any other context, yes, I'm certainly sure the 3 Sverige class ships would "overwhelm" Prinz Eugen eventually!
We agree on that! Yaay!
And we agree on the fact that the whole invasion, for reasons given elsewhere and at length in this thread, is kind of pointless.
The only realistic motivation I can think of for the Swedes to risk their ships and soldiers would be, as lordroel suggested, if they are absolutely sure that they will get some "glory" - however that price is transmogrified into something politically and economically worthwhile for the Swedes.
Maybe a critical number of Swedish politicians suddenly feeling guilty about allowing German troops and iron ore to flow during the war? OTOH they also did a number of similar things for the Allies and was a haven for many Jewish refugees, so ... maybe not.
@lordroel, did you find out what the original motivation was for the Swedes to actually plan for this?
The 24 000 meters is often quoted because that was the max range the ships themselves could spot in clear weather (about the horizon) and thus correct their own fire. However, the navy did practice doing over the horizon fire with a plane or a quick patrol boat to do the spotting ahead for the Sveriges.
The original motivation for the planned operations was for a scenario where the Germans in Norway and Denmark refused to surrender and would hold the civilian population hostage (or even start killing to show they mean business) to get conditional terms for surrender. In such a scenario, the Swedish military believed they would be in the best position to quickly intervene and stop the Germans. Rädda Norge was the serious and believable operation, where the Germans (without Swedish intervention) could have had a chance to hold out for a while. Rädda Danmark was basically the navy's brainchild due to mostly being left out of Rädda Norge.