What if Philip the Fair does not Destroy the Templar knights

[Titus_Pullo]

What if King Philip the Fair does not destroy the Templar Knights, whether it us more likely that the Templar Knights allow Philip to join the order, or Philip cannot or does not persecute them? How does this affect the Crusades after Philip the Fair?

The Teutonic Knights, the Knights of St. John are still around I don't see anything different happening if you added the Templars except maybe take part in the defense of Malta in 1565. It probably would have been disbanded by Napoleon and become a purely Catholic religious order like the Teutonic Knights and the Knights of St. John today.

 

[Zireael]

Well, I agree with Titus Pullo.

 

[Roger II]

Wondered why exactly that got dismissed, thanks.

The Professor: Setting up a state in North Africa sounds like a heck of a challenge.

Is having the Almohad Caliphate be badly, badly mauled at Alcaros and speeding up the Christian conquests here a option* or would that just butterfly everything else?
*along with everyone learning their lesson about why inviting people from North Africa to help you is a bad idea.

 

[Elfwine]

Is having the Almohad Caliphate be badly, badly mauled at Alcaros and speeding up the Christian conquests here a option* or would that just butterfly everything else?
*along with everyone learning their lesson about why inviting people from North Africa to help you is a bad idea.

I think that would lead to quite a swarm of butterflies if you mean the battle I think you do.

 

[mrmandias]

I'm completely ignorant about this subject, but I've heard the Templars were so wealthy because they were proto-bankers and international financiers. If they survive, could you see some differences in the realms of finance?

 

[Elfwine]

I'm completely ignorant about this subject, but I've heard the Templars were so wealthy because they were proto-bankers and international financiers. If they survive, could you see some differences in the realms of finance?

Not really. The Templars may have been ahead of the norm, but so were the northern Italian city-states.

 

[Roger II]

I think that would lead to quite a swarm of butterflies if you mean the battle I think you do.

It would. Which is a pity, since it'd be a very interesting PoD in its own right-my prof argued that a lot of the dynamics that drove the texture of the reconquista stem from the Almohads and a earlier reconquista would have some pretty interesting butterflies itself.

 

[Elfwine]

It would. Which is a pity, since it'd be a very interesting PoD in its own right-my prof argued that a lot of the dynamics that drove the texture of the reconquista stem from the Almohads and a earlier reconquista would have some pretty interesting butterflies itself.

Definitely. Of course, if one's goal on the Templars is simply "Philip doesn't destroy the Templars", this might work nicely.

 

[Bee]

I'm completely ignorant about this subject, but I've heard the Templars were so wealthy because they were proto-bankers and international financiers. If they survive, could you see some differences in the realms of finance?

Philip IV owed them a fortune. Draw your own conclusions.

 

[RousseauX]

The Templars being around won't make it any easier to organize large scale crusades, or increase people's interest in actually going on one.

But they would remain one of the largest financial institutions in Europe, which by itself would have enormous consequences.

 

[Avitus]

To those comparing the Templars survival to the OTL continued existance of the Hospitalers and Teutonics, I think that you are underestimating the Templars. They were larger and posessed more land across more kingdoms than the other crusading orders ever did, and were far wealthier than the others too. I'm not saying that they'll take back Jerusalem or anything, though there is an offchance of them being involved in such a thing if butterflies provide the opportunity, but they might be able to do for Cyprus what the Hospitalers did for Rhodes and Malta, or make a nation comperable to the Teutonic order lands in Anatolia or north Africa. I could also see them making a significant impact on the Balkan crusades, which were all fairly close to succeeding OTL, and might benefit from Templar financial support and recruiting power.

 

[Emperor Constantine]

So could a surviving Templar order lead to a proto-central bank for Europe?

 

[M79]

OTL events that get missed:
-Scotland might not win at Bannockburn and thus could be more integrated into England in the 14th/15th century, word was some of Robert the Bruce's men at the battle were Templar holdovers
-Switzerland as we know it might not exist for the same reason

ATL possibilities:

-Templars head for Constantinople and work for the Emperor in exchange for spreading the word and gaining lots of trade rights, eventually even coming to own whole cities within the Empire. Constantinople still falls but much more slowly, a la 1600-1650, and the Renaissance is delayed by half a century as a result

-Templars bankroll expeditions around Africa a century ahead of Columbus and work closely with Henry the Navigator, eventually leading to a landing in modern Brazil in 1422 with circumnavigation of Africa in 1435

-Black Plague wipes out many of the order as they work to help the natives and their own assets are largely wiped out, local kings do the rest a generation later

-Templars eventually become a military asset of the Papacy itself and help it unite southern and central Italy by 1450, eventually uniting the peninsula with Corsica, Sardinina, Sicily, Crete, and much of Greece by 1500. Templars then become the financial and commercial arm of Rome with assets all over Europe

Just some thoughts...

 

[Malta]

Not sure how the Knights of St John would react to another order buting into their corsair trade.

 

[Tobit]

I wonder what would happen if France went bankrupt is there anywhere else Philip could go for cash?

 

[Elfwine]

I wonder what would happen if France went bankrupt is there anywhere else Philip could go for cash?

The usual sources. Not sure if the Jews are avaiable to plunder.

 

[Vingilótë]

The usual sources. Not sure if the Jews are avaiable to plunder.

I remember reading offhand that Phillip actually jumped on the Templars because he'd already plundered both the Jewish and Lombard bankers. So probably not.

 

[Tobit]

Looking at the Wikipedia article it seems like a good POD for a surviving Templar order would be if Clement V wasn't elected pope. Clement V was the pope who convened the council to disband the Templar knights, where he basically allowed Philip the Fair to dictate and eventually issued the bull suppressing the Templars.

Clement V was also the first pope of the Avignon papacy, so keeping the Pope in Rome would be an very interesting POD. It would most likely mean a reignition of the civil war between the Colonna and Orsini families. With maybe a French invasion of Italy.

 

[cimon]

The Teutonic Knights, the Knights of St. John are still around I don't see anything different happening if you added the Templars except maybe take part in the defense of Malta in 1565. It probably would have been disbanded by Napoleon and become a purely Catholic religious order like the Teutonic Knights and the Knights of St. John today.

If they help the defence of Rhodes Malta cease to exist and we talk about the 'epic defence of Rhodes' and the Ottoman defeat 43 years earlier and by the same Grand Master.

 

[Derek Pullem]

Looking at the Wikipedia article it seems like a good POD for a surviving Templar order would be if Clement V wasn't elected pope. Clement V was the pope who convened the council to disband the Templar knights, where he basically allowed Philip the Fair to dictate and eventually issued the bull suppressing the Templars.

Clement V was also the first pope of the Avignon papacy, so keeping the Pope in Rome would be an very interesting POD. It would most likely mean a reignition of the civil war between the Colonna and Orsini families. With maybe a French invasion of Italy.

This - I'm not sure it helps the Templars retain their lands in France but it might end up with them retaining their influence outside of France and retaining a role as the financial supporters and occasional military arm of the Roman Papacy. Would expect the Schism to be advanced by a few decades with possible interesting impacts on France and England (a deferred or stillborn Hundred years War? Earlier "Italian Wars" scenario)