What if-no Jesus

[the_lyniezian]

You heathen you should be thanking Odin for putting out his own eye to give humanity the gift of language.

Óðinn would never send his son in his place to die either he'd die himself before he did that.

This Yahweh that you worship must have bipolar disorder.

In the first of the bible he has the attributes of a strong and powerful wargod who demands respect and gets it no matter how many people die for not following him.

Then he chills out sends part of himself to earth and lets that mangod die for all of humanity. When in Christian mythology there is but one god?This god creates everything even sin and evil? Why not just skip that part?

There's more than one god that's why.

Marcionism?

No, there are not multiple Gods. Just we were under law, and thus sin was often treated more harshly (punishable by swift death) so we are now under grace (God is allowing us opportunity to repent, and witholding judgement). God is merciful in the OT too, and vengeful in the NT (vide revelation, Jesus driving out the money-changers from the Temple, etc.)

Any further discussion I supose might have to spawn a Chat forum, thus creating a new Thread That Wouldn't Die...

 

[NomadicSky]

No, there are not multiple Gods.

That's an arrogant thing to say.

My faith has taught me that there are many.

the ot hebrew god isn't one of mercy at all. Calling the Israelites to kill every man, woman, and child because they are Philistines isn't a god of mercy it's something a god of war would do.

 

[the_lyniezian]

That's an arrogant thing to say.

My faith has taught me that there are many.

the ot hebrew god isn't one of mercy at all. Calling the Israelites to kill every man, woman, and child because they are Philistines isn't a god of mercy it's something a god of war would do.

1. The people of the land that were to be driven out were called sinful.
2. Those that trusted/feared God were spared (e.g. Rahab the prostitute).
So He still forgives.

Still only 1 God.

 

[Keenir]

In OTL, no other religion has formed round any contemporary messianic figures.

really?

bar Kochba wasn't a messianic figure? among his other qualifications, he (like Jesus) had a bloodline going back to King David.

or how about Shabbatai Levi (sp) ? his followers are still around, if mostly in Turkey.

If no Jesus in the time He lived, would God need to raise up John the Baptist, since he was supposed to prepare the way for Christ?

the Mandeans don't see a need for John to pave the way for Jesus.

 

[Hapsburg]

What if the man that was Christ or the legend that became Christ wasn't.

Supposing he did exist what if Mary had a miscarriage?

What's the worlds theology like today?

The insurrectionist, nationalist movement that used Jesus (or the person the character was based on) as a martyr probably would have found another man. To say that there were several messiah claimants and insurrectionist groups in Judea at the time would be a gross understatement. The cult of Yeshua was simply the most successful, because of its willingness to co-opt nearby cultures' philosophies and myths to suit their purposes, ex. Stoicism, apotheosis, etc. Another group would have taken its place.

Not Christianity as we know it, but similar enough.
Now, would this similar movement have become as dominant as Christianity? Probably not. It would likely fall and wither in the midst of the Jewish diaspora, like most of the other messianic movements.
Most likely, either Mithraism would have made itself more publicly available and become dominant that way, or the cult of Sol Invictus would have taken hold, and a form of henotheistic monolatry, with a good mix of neo-platonic philosophy, would characterise Roman state religion.

No, there are not multiple Gods.

I respectfully, and vociferously, disagree.

 

[Zajir]

Manichaeism comes to mind, and several of the mystery cults had somewhat messianic themes.

Was Mani truly a Messiah?

 

[NomadicSky]

1. The people of the land that were to be driven out were called sinful.
2. Those that trusted/feared God were spared (e.g. Rahab the prostitute).
So He still forgives.

Still only 1 God.

No many Gods. Even in your own faith. Lucifer is a god in his own right to the christians. He lives in an kingdom on another plane of existance has power to do as he pleases without God, God sees him as an equal at times allowing Lucifer to torture people (Job). If God was all good he wouldn't have been able to create evil. That leads to the fact there there must have been more than one God. In genesis it says humans were created in OUR image. Who is this other supreme being if there is only one God?


So according to your faith it's ok to kill the sinful? The bible says everyone has fallen short of the glory of God and there is none that are righteous. That means even Jesus had to sin to be human.

 

[Zajir]

No many Gods. Even in your own faith. Lucifer is a god in his own right to the christians. He lives in an kingdom on another plane of existance has power to do as he pleases without God, God sees him as an equal at times allowing Lucifer to torture people (Job). If God was all good he wouldn't have been able to create evil. That leads to the fact there there must have been more than one God. In genesis it says humans were created in OUR image. Who is this other supreme being if there is only one God?


So according to your faith it's ok to kill the sinful? The bible says everyone has fallen short of the glory of God and there is none that are righteous. That means even Jesus had to sin to be human.

Lucifer is not a god,for his power is small all he can do is deceive people,only if God allows him like in Job,can he do harm,you see that he outside of Job he never does directly harm,in Revelations he only rasies armies of men and deceives them.
If all men were righteous than Satan would become an oxymoron a powerless force. Hell also cannot be hidden from God,for it would mean that God is not omnipresent,as He cannot see Hell

 

[Lord Grattan]

No many Gods. Even in your own faith. Lucifer is a god in his own right to the christians. He lives in an kingdom on another plane of existance has power to do as he pleases without God, God sees him as an equal at times allowing Lucifer to torture people (Job). If God was all good he wouldn't have been able to create evil. That leads to the fact there there must have been more than one God. In genesis it says humans were created in OUR image. Who is this other supreme being if there is only one God?


So according to your faith it's ok to kill the sinful? The bible says everyone has fallen short of the glory of God and there is none that are righteous. That means even Jesus had to sin to be human.

Are you looking to have a genuinly open and thoughtful theological discussion on these themes?

BTW, Lucifer IS NOT a god according to Christian theology.

 

[NomadicSky]

Are you looking to have a genuinly open and thoughtful theological discussion on these themes?

BTW, Lucifer IS NOT a god according to Christian theology.

Yes I'd like that.

I understand that Lucifer isn't a god but he does have godlike attributes.

 

[Dan1988]

Let me see, NS: are you trying to prove a point via sarcasm? Because if remember correctly, when Satan (pronounced sey-TAHN, not SAY-tin) was originally mentioned in the Bible, it was in the Tanakh as only God's adversary. Only in the Christian Bible did Satan become evil.

 

[the_lyniezian]

Let me see, NS: are you trying to prove a point via sarcasm? Because if remember correctly, when Satan (pronounced sey-TAHN, not SAY-tin) was originally mentioned in the Bible, it was in the Tanakh as only God's adversary. Only in the Christian Bible did Satan become evil.

Some might wonder what the difference is.

 

[Zyzzyva]

Some might wonder what the difference is.

In the tanakh, he's more of a devil's advocate/cynic type character. In the new testament, he's, well, satan.

 

[the_lyniezian]

In the tanakh, he's more of a devil's advocate/cynic type character. In the new testament, he's, well, satan.

Going against God is by definition a bad thing.

I guess God only tolerates Satan because somehow, He works all things together for the good of those who love Him, as says the Bible.

Fancy continuing this discussion in Chat?

 

[the_lyniezian]

The insurrectionist, nationalist movement that used Jesus (or the person the character was based on) as a martyr probably would have found another man. To say that there were several messiah claimants and insurrectionist groups in Judea at the time would be a gross understatement. The cult of Yeshua was simply the most successful, because of its willingness to co-opt nearby cultures' philosophies and myths to suit their purposes, ex. Stoicism, apotheosis, etc. Another group would have taken its place.

This assumes that it was an insurrectionist, nationalist movement. Despite the misunderstandings of Jesus Christ's followers, I would suggest that wasn't Jesus intention.

Not Christianity as we know it, but similar enough.
Now, would this similar movement have become as dominant as Christianity? Probably not. It would likely fall and wither in the midst of the Jewish diaspora, like most of the other messianic movements.
Most likely, either Mithraism would have made itself more publicly available and become dominant that way, or the cult of Sol Invictus would have taken hold, and a form of henotheistic monolatry, with a good mix of neo-platonic philosophy, would characterise Roman state religion.

Might be possible, but I thing there was something about Jesus that made it what it was: namely, what the Bible said it was.

I respectfully, and vociferously, disagree.

Me too. From you.

What exactly are you getting at, multiple gods how?

 

[Zyzzyva]

Going against God is by definition a bad thing.

I guess God only tolerates Satan because somehow, He works all things together for the good of those who love Him, as says the Bible.

Fancy continuing this discussion in Chat?

Satan only appears in the book of Job, where he's not going against God per se. God says that Job is a good and righteous man, and Satan notes that he has everything, so why shouldn't he be happy? The true trial of a man is adversity ect ect. God says make it so and Satan starts afflicting Job. That's not quite how Satan is depicted in the NT.

And yes, to the Chatmobile!

 

[NomadicSky]

Satan only appears in the book of Job, where he's not going against God per se. God says that Job is a good and righteous man, and Satan notes that he has everything, so why shouldn't he be happy? The true trial of a man is adversity ect ect. God says make it so and Satan starts afflicting Job. That's not quite how Satan is depicted in the NT.

And yes, to the Chatmobile!

Chats fine. This is so far from what I had in mind for this tread. I wanted serious theological hypothesis and it turned into my God(s) is(are) better than yours.

 

[Zyzzyva]

Chats fine. This is so far from what I had in mind for this tread. I wanted serious theological hypothesis and it turned into my God(s) is(are) better than yours.

You have my sympathies. I think it's an interesting question (IMHO, Jews go down hard in 69/70 just like OTL, Mithras or maybe evangelical Zoarstrianism becomes popular, albeit probably never to the same extent as christianity) but what did you expect this thread to turn into?

 

[the_lyniezian]

really?

bar Kochba wasn't a messianic figure? among his other qualifications, he (like Jesus) had a bloodline going back to King David.

or how about Shabbatai Levi (sp) ? his followers are still around, if mostly in Turkey.

I didn't mean there were no would-be messiahs, there were indeed quite a few and the book of Acts makes reference to a few (Acts 5:36-37, where Gamaliel is advocating cautious leniency towards the apostles- mentions a Theudas and a Judas of Galilee.

the Mandeans don't see a need for John to pave the way for Jesus.

[/quote]

Yes, but they're a small minority. Clearly Mandeanism never caught on in such a big way, even if we ignore everything since Constantine. One must ask why...

 

[Chengar Qordath]

Was Mani truly a Messiah?

He certainly thought he was.