What If - Finland had been prepared for the Winter War?

Wonderful update CanKiwi from one of my favourite TL's, are you able to give us an idea of when TTL's continuation war will commence?

Furthermore has the Finnish Air Force resumed their rearmament ITTL and what is their main fighter and bomber?

In TTL, the Soviet Union does not attack Finland at the time of the German attack on the Soviet Union in the Summer of 1941. Finland partially mobilizes but remains neutral. With Stalin dead, the triumvirate ruling the USSR sees no value in attacking Finland and other than maintaining defences along the new borders with Finland, does not launch any attacks on Finland. Neither do the Finns permit any German forces to enter Finland or the Finnish-held zone of northern Norway.

There is thus no Continuation War. What does happen is Finland maintains very close ties with the Polish government-in-exile, and maintains close contact with the Polish Home Army, as well as with nationalist movements in Lithuania, Estonia and Latvia. The Finnish discover of the Soviet death camps on the Kola Peninsula and along the White Sea Canal was heavily publicised at the time of the Winter War, with much the same fervor as the discovery of the Nazi death camps was publicized by the Allies at the end of WW2.

Thus there is no avuncular "Uncle Joe" and not as much pro-Soviet propaganda in Allied countries after Germany attacks the Soviets. For practical reasons, Allied military support for the USSR takes place more or less as per history, and the German offensive and Soviet defence take place more or less as per history. In early 1943, Finnish representatives led the investigation of the Katyn Massacre. On top of earlier Finnish discoveries on the Kola and the White Sea, this investigation hardened Finnish views on the Soviet Union and led to a decision that Finland must do something concrete to assist the Baltic States and Poland as the course of the war changed against the Germans.

Negotiations with the US and Britain as well as with the Polish government-in-exile began in secret and shipments of lend-lease weapons (and polish soldiers) began in the spring of 1943.

In Spring of 1944, anticipating the Soviet summer offensive of that year by some two months, Finland launched the invasion and seizure of Estonia, re-entering WW2...... for Finland, the War of Revenge had begun...... (can't remember if that was what I planned to call it, there was a discussion on this a couple of years ago....)

At this stage, the main Finnish fighter is a new one.... it comes into service shortly prior to the Winter War..... working on that post slowly at the moment....
 
In TTL, the Soviet Union does not attack Finland at the time of the German attack on the Soviet Union in the Summer of 1941. Finland partially mobilizes but remains neutral. With Stalin dead, the triumvirate ruling the USSR sees no value in attacking Finland and other than maintaining defences along the new borders with Finland, does not launch any attacks on Finland. Neither do the Finns permit any German forces to enter Finland or the Finnish-held zone of northern Norway.

There is thus no Continuation War. What does happen is Finland maintains very close ties with the Polish government-in-exile, and maintains close contact with the Polish Home Army, as well as with nationalist movements in Lithuania, Estonia and Latvia. The Finnish discover of the Soviet death camps on the Kola Peninsula and along the White Sea Canal was heavily publicised at the time of the Winter War, with much the same fervor as the discovery of the Nazi death camps was publicized by the Allies at the end of WW2.

Thus there is no avuncular "Uncle Joe" and not as much pro-Soviet propaganda in Allied countries after Germany attacks the Soviets. For practical reasons, Allied military support for the USSR takes place more or less as per history, and the German offensive and Soviet defence take place more or less as per history. In early 1943, Finnish representatives led the investigation of the Katyn Massacre. On top of earlier Finnish discoveries on the Kola and the White Sea, this investigation hardened Finnish views on the Soviet Union and led to a decision that Finland must do something concrete to assist the Baltic States and Poland as the course of the war changed against the Germans.

Negotiations with the US and Britain as well as with the Polish government-in-exile began in secret and shipments of lend-lease weapons (and polish soldiers) began in the spring of 1943.

In Spring of 1944, anticipating the Soviet summer offensive of that year by some two months, Finland launched the invasion and seizure of Estonia, re-entering WW2...... for Finland, the War of Revenge had begun...... (can't remember if that was what I planned to call it, there was a discussion on this a couple of years ago....)

At this stage, the main Finnish fighter is a new one.... it comes into service shortly prior to the Winter War..... working on that post slowly at the moment....

The changes wrought by a butterfly's flapping wings are always fascinating to watch, I look forward to seeing how the Baltic States regain their freedom.

Looking forward to the post about the new fighter as well.

EDIT: Could you start an update only thread, as it would make it easier to re - read this excellent thread.
 
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In TTL, the Soviet Union does not attack Finland at the time of the German attack on the Soviet Union in the Summer of 1941. Finland partially mobilizes but remains neutral. With Stalin dead, the triumvirate ruling the USSR sees no value in attacking Finland and other than maintaining defences along the new borders with Finland, does not launch any attacks on Finland. Neither do the Finns permit any German forces to enter Finland or the Finnish-held zone of northern Norway.

There is thus no Continuation War. What does happen is Finland maintains very close ties with the Polish government-in-exile, and maintains close contact with the Polish Home Army, as well as with nationalist movements in Lithuania, Estonia and Latvia. The Finnish discover of the Soviet death camps on the Kola Peninsula and along the White Sea Canal was heavily publicised at the time of the Winter War, with much the same fervor as the discovery of the Nazi death camps was publicized by the Allies at the end of WW2.

Thus there is no avuncular "Uncle Joe" and not as much pro-Soviet propaganda in Allied countries after Germany attacks the Soviets. For practical reasons, Allied military support for the USSR takes place more or less as per history, and the German offensive and Soviet defence take place more or less as per history. In early 1943, Finnish representatives led the investigation of the Katyn Massacre. On top of earlier Finnish discoveries on the Kola and the White Sea, this investigation hardened Finnish views on the Soviet Union and led to a decision that Finland must do something concrete to assist the Baltic States and Poland as the course of the war changed against the Germans.

Negotiations with the US and Britain as well as with the Polish government-in-exile began in secret and shipments of lend-lease weapons (and polish soldiers) began in the spring of 1943.

In Spring of 1944, anticipating the Soviet summer offensive of that year by some two months, Finland launched the invasion and seizure of Estonia, re-entering WW2...... for Finland, the War of Revenge had begun...... (can't remember if that was what I planned to call it, there was a discussion on this a couple of years ago....)

At this stage, the main Finnish fighter is a new one.... it comes into service shortly prior to the Winter War..... working on that post slowly at the moment....
Speaking of those, where will post winter war borders be?
 

perfectgeneral

Donor
Monthly Donor
There was also this from back in Sept 2013



Also, re the shoulder-fired mortar: see http://www.jaegerplatoon.net/ALMOST3.htm

...

Even if the design had not suffered the handicaps mentioned above, it had very little chance of success. Looking at the design it is fairly obvious that it was intended to fill the notch that was soon covered by recoilless rifles. Hence unfortunately the design would have become obsolete almost immediately anyway.

Anyhow, bring the date for this forward and it could serve as the starting point for the grenade launcher....

Also: https://www.scribd.com/document/251244513/Italian-Anti-Tank-Shoulder-Weapon-pdf
Greater detail on that Italian design. A blank carbine round fires gas behind a shaped charge round in a sprung recoil tube.
A later enhanced range version might ignite a rocket propulsion once a line tied to the tube pulls tight. Still safe to fire from buildings, firing point still obscured by lack of smoke at the origin.

Nice rifle/hand grenade design too: https://www.scribd.com/document/306255692/Italmeccanica-DG-91-Hand-Grenade-pdf

detonates even on impact with water! It'd be nice if the AT shoulder mortar could fire these too.

https://www.scribd.com/book/3105262...e-Operational-Use-of-the-M79-Grenade-Launcher
 
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Is it still alive?

Well, it's alive but I haven't done anything much for months. I have to kick my ass into gear and keep working on this - for the last year, I've really been concentrating on improving my fictional "novel writing" skills fairly intensively, with a series of actual novels planned for which this is all background. Anyhow, I actually do have a couple of posts almost ready - got some writing for a fiction-writing site to get done for mid-Nov but after that, I'll whack out those follow on posts.
 
Hi everyone, I know, I know, it's been a couple of year since I last posted on this thread, and a little more since I actually a posted some content, but it's coming back from the dead to continue (the thread, not me. I'm very much alive). And thx CalBear for unlocking for me. Much appreciated. And thx to you guys who asked. I'd decided to concentrate more on my fiction and novel writing skills for a while - been going to writing workshops weekly between then and recently, writing away, but all fiction and on other topics and subjects while I honed my writing skills. Been a lot of fun and work, but it was my alternative Winter War that kicked me off and I've been meaning to come back to it for a while now.

This is more of a "yes, it will resume" post, not actual content. I have to re-read, bring myself back up to speed on where I was, and go thru my notes to figure out where I was going. I'm working on a few other things, changed jobs a couple of times (actually, Julius Vogel, gone thru about three different IT contracts since we met up in Toronto), actually have a publisher lined up, have had some pretty good feedback on the drafts of a couple of novels, so I'll be balancing this with what are turning into some pretty heavy other writing commitments.

I'll be taking a slightly different approach to this thread, much lighter on the detailed factoids, more concentration on the storyline and moving it along, because that does also feed into the series of novels I'm writing based loosely around this timeline and for which this timeline is now background. For anyone interested, here's an outline of the novels I've been planning, and now that my writing skills have moved along to where a couple of publishers have expressed an interest in my stuff, I'm charging ahead. Planning to get the first few out towards the end of this year / early 2020. Looking at that Tom Kratman / WEB Griffin style epic military saga... think Griffin and his "The Corps" series merged with Kratman's Carreraverse with a good dose of Hammers Slammers and Sven Hassel for good measure, along with some hot sex here and there a la John Ringo's Kildar series and a dose of romance and tragedy. Something along those lines.... anyhow, my fictional writing style seems to be shaking down well so here we go....

This is a rough outline, and I've divided it into three linked series - the first set in the Spanish Civil War, the second around the Winter War and the third around the War of Revenge and the defeat of Germany. Probably change a bit as I get to work, but this is where I'm going, and this thread will continue as the background for these. Hope you all continue to enjoy....

Punainen myrsky, valkoinen kuolema (Red Storm, White Death)

Some of these I've settled on as titles, some are just working names. The Finnish titles are for fun - shooting for English language market, you really have to stick with English language titles, but I love the Finnish translations for some of these....

The Crucible (Spanish Civil War)

The Crucible – Book I – Rannikkojääkärit
The Crucible – Book II – Eläköön kuolema (Long Live Death)
The Crucible – Book III – The Boys from the North (Pohjan Pohjat)
The Crucible – Book IV – Pasaremos (We Shall Pass)
The Crucible – Book V – Mustat joutsenet tietävät kuolemaa (The Black Swans Mean Death)
The Crucible – Book VI – Taistelukentän mestarit (Masters of the Battlefield)

Kunnes helvetti jäätyy (Until Hell Freezes Over)

Kunnes helvetti jäätyy – Book I – Myrsky kannaksella (Storm over the Isthmus)
Kunnes helvetti jäätyy – Book II – Taistelu petsamosta (The Battle of Petsamo)
Kunnes helvetti jäätyy – Book III – Päättäväinen legioona (A Steadfast Legion)
Kunnes helvetti jäätyy – Book IV - Eteneminen vienanmerelle (Advance to the White Sea)
Kunnes helvetti jäätyy – Book V – Helsinki saattue (The Helsinki Convoy)
Kunnes helvetti jäätyy – Book VI – Perääntyä, helvetti! Tappakaa paskiaiset! (Retreat, Hell! Kill the bastards!) (Tali-Ihantala 1940)
Kunnes helvetti jäätyy – Book VII – Kannaksella verisiä luita (Isthmus of Blood and Bones)
Kunnes helvetti jäätyy – Book VIII – Kalmaralli (Death Dance) - (battle on the Syvari)
Kunnes helvetti jäätyy – Book IX – Ukkosyvory - tuulispaana leningradiin (Avalanche of Thunder – Whirlwind to Leningrad)
Kunnes helvetti jäätyy – Book X – The Last Stand of Field Kitchen 193
Kunnes helvetti jäätyy – Book XI – Taisteluhuuto vapauteen (Battle Cry of Freedom) - (the fall of Estonia)
Kunnes helvetti jäätyy – Book XII – Alla verenpunaisen taivaan (Under a Blood Red Sky)

(War of Revenge) (and yes, these are totally working titles, I need to come up with better names)

War of Revenge – Book I – Balancing Act
War of Revenge – Book II – Behind the Lines
War of Revenge – Book III – E-Day, 1944
War of Revenge – Book IV – Bornholm
War of Revenge – Book V – The Drive South
War of Revenge – Book VI – The Relief of Warsaw
War of Revenge – Book VII – To the Elbe
War of Revenge – Book VIII – The Fall of Berlin
War of Revenge – Book IX – The Lion Flag Over Germany
 
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