Were black magic users and worshipers of dark gods and godesses (esp Satanic counterparts) not necessarily welcomed? Maybe even persecuted openly?

[StromgardeTuska]

I read Fushigi Yugi which is heavily based on Chinese mythology and ancient religions. The antagonist of the story comes from an ancient tribe of worshipers of demon Gods and they were wiped out by the governments of the lands they live in for engaging in a taboo religion.

In addition I also seen Sony Chiba's Ninja Wars and in the movie Buddhist Warrior monks were sent to raid a temple of people who worship Akuma, Japanese equivalent of demon lords, and mass fighting ensure between the dark cult and the Buddhist militants.

In the early Prince of Persia games not only is Jafar shown as evil for using dark spells, but I remember at least one installment showing he worships Ahriman or some ancient evil Zoroastrian god and the Prince fights his way to stop his ritual.

In Asterix the Gaul a few chapters of comic book stories has Asterix stopping some druids who were abusing the Celtic magick to summon a powerful creature or casting curses on people and other cliched use of black magic shown in modern TV programs like Supernatural. Despite Asterix as a Gaul worshipping Celtic gods himself.

So it makes me wonder....... Were witches and other people who practised black magic not necessarily accepted in contemporary society and same for pagans and polytheists who worshiped dark gods who were evil spirits esp those who were the equivalent of Satan in their religion?

Were they possibly even persecuted? Sure these are all works of fiction but Ninja Wars was explicitly revolved around on Buddhist cliches in Japanese culture and Fushigi Yugi was specifically based on various sacred customs of Chinese B.C. The fact that even non-Christian non-Western cultures are showing the persecution of devil-worshipers and black magick is really making me curious.

 

[Arkenfolm]

The simple answer is yes, yes they were. But it should be placed in context. There were always heterodox sects of various religions, and these were often persecuted or despised. And usually their evil deeds were exaggerated or outright fabricated based on bits of actual doctrine they believed, and unpopular figures were accused of association with them. For instance, the Knights Templar did have practices involving spitting on the cross and denying Christ and there were very close bonds between members, but it wasn't for the sake of blasphemy and sodomy like they were accused of--the former was a form of training in case they were captured or needed to infiltrate enemy areas and the latter was a bond of brotherhood and involved no sexual activities.

That doesn't mean that some of these sects weren't blatantly violating morality--there probably were ancient equivalents to the modern cults/fringe sects where the leader helps himself to the women/children of the group and invents doctrine justifying his actions.

Witchcraft, black magic, and any sort of tapping into supernatural powers was feared in most cultures, hence why shamans were feared. Misusing that power was a severe crime, and is to this day in some parts of the world where people publically lynch people accused of witchcraft.

 

[IsaacXII]

So it makes me wonder....... Were witches and other people who practised black magic not necessarily accepted in contemporary society and same for pagans and polytheists who worshiped dark gods who were evil spirits esp those who were the equivalent of Satan in their religion?

Not necessarily.... It depends a bit on the religion and especially what it considers dark magic

 

[Lord High Executioner]

So it makes me wonder....... Were witches and other people who practised black magic not necessarily accepted in contemporary society and same for pagans and polytheists who worshiped dark gods who were evil spirits esp those who were the equivalent of Satan in their religion?

Were they possibly even persecuted? Sure these are all works of fiction but Ninja Wars was explicitly revolved around on Buddhist cliches in Japanese culture and Fushigi Yugi was specifically based on various sacred customs of Chinese B.C. The fact that even non-Christian non-Western cultures are showing the persecution of devil-worshipers and black magick is really making me curious.

I think I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that, yes, people engaging in acts considered evil, practising evil magic and worshipping (as opposed to
appeasing or at times turning to, which I've been given the impression is the more general polytheist approach) evil gods were not exactly accepted in
their respective societies, considering that it were those societies that labelled said activities evil.

 

[da Racontor]

First off we have to define a few things. Our modern concept of Satanism, both ironic & un-ironic, didn't exist in the Middle Ages, nor did any modern occultist groups. At best, these groups can academically date themselves to at most the 1700s & that isn't going to be very many of them.
And the idea of a witch in the Middle Ages is not normally what a modern person means when they say the word.

Now we get complicated,
I'm going to focus on Christian Western Europe as that is what I'm most familiar with.

Official, according to the Catholic Church, that magic (black or otherwise) did not exist (Protestantism varies, but i have a feeling you're referring to pre-Reformation times). Belief in magic was a heresy, both trying to practice & trying to accuse someone of practicing it. (I'll get to actual witch-hunts at the end.)

Why did they try to convert heretics & pagans? Well one piece is that the state considered them a threat to public stability.

But what is often forgotten (and I'm mostly referring to Christians in time period) is that heretics or pagans are literally supposed to be condemned to an afterlife of eternal suffering. What sane human isn't going to want to help prevent that?
Now, even at the time they recognized forced & coerced conversions were a problem. The fact that some people ignored that is another discussion, as well as the theology behind the eternal suffering doctrine.

Now, for actual historic witch-hunts. If belief in magic & witched was a heresy, why were their witch hunts? The same reasons there are hunts for any other scapegoat. Rationality takes a step aside & lets fear, especially fear for absolute safety, take over.

 

[Yorel]

Were witches and other people who practised black magic not necessarily accepted in contemporary society and same for pagans and polytheists who worshiped dark gods who were evil spirits esp those who were the equivalent of Satan in their religion?

Maybe I'm pedantic, but I think the answer kinda answers itself when you consider the definition of what exactly are "Black Magic" and "Dark Gods".

Black magic, in its usual definition, specifically refers to magic that is aimed at doing malevolant acts. If you were openly practicing it, no matter in what kind of society you lived in, you wouldn't be looked favorably upon... At best you're either a creepy weirdo or part of the criminal world.

And while Dark or Evil Gods can exist in mythology... Well, the religions aren't generally about worshipping them. Gods can be terrible and in need of appeasment but generally the religion doesn't describe them as evil or malevolent, save maybe for a few specific case. If you religion mentions a Dark God however, that god is the adversary, the thing you must fight and never make contact with. So of course this kind of behavior wouldn't be accepted. Bringing you back to being a creepy weirdo and/or part of the criminal world.

Now you could have heterodox and/or non-conformative practices that would be assimilated to Black Magic and worshipping Dark Gods yet still be accepted... But that's opening a different can of worms and discussing the concepts of Orthodoxy and Heresy.

Were they possibly even persecuted?

Definitely.

I vaguely remember reading that the Romans weren't exactly fond of witches, which might have played a role in Christiannity's attitude towards them (though Judaism and the Old Testament already have traces of that hostility).

Plus, as I said, if we go by the definition alone, then it's only logical that they would be persecuted. Communities are generally pretty big on Conformity, Legality and Orthodoxy, so deviations are only tolerated as long as they stay within what's judged acceptable. But being openly practicing dark magic or worshiping evil wouldn't be.

Our modern concept of Satanism, both ironic & un-ironic, didn't exist in the Middle Ages, nor did any modern occultist groups.

Ironic Satanism maybe because it's more akin to a kind of atheism aimed at actively opposing Religion by making fun of it. This wasn't very common in the Middle Ages and the few atheistic texts we have don't really say they worship Satan... because that would be suicidal.

Unironic Satanism and Occultist Groups however probably did have ancestors and precursors in the Middle Ages. I mean, the knowledge they have has to have come from somewhere and we do have old medieval texts delving into the stuff. It's just that, as expected, these groups would be small and secretive. Not to mention the possibility that they were actively persecuted, considering the whole problem of Orthodoxy and Heresy.

Official, according to the Catholic Church, that magic (black or otherwise) did not exist (Protestantism varies, but i have a feeling you're referring to pre-Reformation times). Belief in magic was a heresy, both trying to practice & trying to accuse someone of practicing it. (I'll get to actual witch-hunts at the end.)

From what I understood, it's actually quite a bit more complicated than that...

The thing with magic is that in the Ancient and Medieval World, the term doesn't necessarilly referred purely to the occult or to spells. It could also refer to a form of science that dealt with phenomenons that were badly understood. That's why wizards and mages tend to be portrayed as wise men and scientists, both in mythology and in fiction: they have access to a form of hidden knowledge.

It also led to a distinction between Ritual and Natural Magic. Ritual Magic is generally what the Church highly frowns upon because these are generally occult rituals that look like heretical if not demonic practices (and often are regarded as such). Natural Magic though tended to be tolerated as it was seen as just a form of science. Kinda how Alchemy and Chemistry weren't split originally and the former was considered part of the latter. Of course, if you used natural magic for nefarious means, you could still be in trouble... And there were definitely heretical use of natural magic.

Finally, the Catholic Church does believe in Miracles and Demonic Possession. Protestantism denounced the Cult of Saints, but the Catholic Church never did. Sainthood however is a thing that needs to be properly checked and miracles need proofs before they are accepted, that proof being that you can't find any other logical explanation beyond the fact it was God's will. It's very codified procedure involving a lot of paperwork. And also where we got the famous Devil's Advocate, as in trials of Sainthood he is supposed to dismiss and contradict the candidate's sanctity.
As for Demonic Possession, the Church does have official Exorcists in charge of dealing with that. The truth is that more often than not they're more proto-psychatrist with a religious vibe (roughly), but they do think they have to deal with real possession from time to time and are officially allowed to do so.
Of course, Saints and Exorcists aren't qualified as magicians, even if what they do could be considered a form of magic.

Basically, it's not that the Church doesn't believe in magic. It's more that most magic practices are regarded by the Church as being heretical and sinful, and thus magicians, witches and other magic users are considered either charlatans & liars (thus sinners) or heretics, pagans and/or devil worshippers (thus bigger sinners).

Now, for actual historic witch-hunts. If belief in magic & witched was a heresy, why were their witch hunts? The same reasons there are hunts for any other scapegoat. Rationality takes a step aside & lets fear, especially fear for absolute safety, take over.

That part is kind of on point... But again, the problem wasn't really the belief in magic: it was more the practice.

Witch Hunt generally went after scapegoats true, but they were generally accused of practicing witchcraft because they were doing stuff that was regarded as weird and non-conformative by the crowd. And that wasn't accusations thrown at witches alone: Jews were often the target of such accusations (probably not helped by the discovery of texts from the Kabbale...), as were probably other "deviant" groups.

The last thing to mention is that Witch Hunts generally weren't highly regarded by the Church. Mostly because it was more commonly the results of actions from laymen and thus not clergymen. Heresy is serious business for the Church so it needs to follow proper procedure, trials and courts. Witch Hunts however are activities that generally don't give a fuck about all that and rarely bother calling the Inquisition... And when the latter gets involved, it can still be hijacked by lay authorities.

 

[da Racontor]

Maybe I'm pedantic, but I think the answer kinda answers itself when you consi

Black magic, in its usual definition, specifically refers to magic that is aimed at doing malevolant acts. If you were openly practicing it, no matter in what kind of society you lived in, you wouldn't be looked favorably upon... At best you're either a creepy weirdo or part of the criminal world.


I vaguely remember reading that the Romans weren't exactly fond of witches, which might have played a role in Christiannity's attitude towards them (though Judaism and the Old Testament already have traces of that hostility).

Now that you mentioned it, I vaguely remember hearing this somewhere, though I don't remember where.

Unironic Satanism and Occultist Groups however probably did have ancestors and precursors in the Middle Ages. I mean, the knowledge they have has to have come from somewhere and we do have old medieval texts delving into the stuff. It's just that, as expected, these groups would be small and secretive. Not to mention the possibility that they were actively persecuted, considering the whole problem of Orthodoxy and Heresy.

There were plenty of Mediaeval exoteric text etc., but they have no direct "academically consistent" connection to the modern groups.
They started to appear later; some do claim older lineages, but generally have the "all evidence of us was destroyed during the persecutions" narrative. Which we cannot verify academically.

We also do have a few other things going on.
First, it was quite common to label pagan gods as demons in disguise. And they were referred to as such in texts.
What we also have is two Christian sects claiming each other were deceived by the devil into worshiping him as God.
But both of these aren't actually the same thing.
It is possible that individuals somewhere held a similar views, but they probably would have been just considered mad.

From what I understood, it's actually quite a bit more complicated than that...

I did simplify,
if you will allow me to be even more pedantic to answer you [see below next quote block].

The thing with magic is that in the Ancient and Medieval World, the term doesn't necessarilly referred purely to the occult or to spells. It could also refer to a form of science that dealt with phenomenons that were badly understood. That's why wizards and mages tend to be portrayed as wise men and scientists, both in mythology and in fiction: they have access to a form of hidden knowledge.

It also led to a distinction between Ritual and Natural Magic. Ritual Magic is generally what the Church highly frowns upon because these are generally occult rituals that look like heretical if not demonic practices (and often are regarded as such). Natural Magic though tended to be tolerated as it was seen as just a form of science. Kinda how Alchemy and Chemistry weren't split originally and the former was considered part of the latter. Of course, if you used natural magic for nefarious means, you could still be in trouble... And there were definitely heretical use of natural magic.

Finally, the Catholic Church does believe in Miracles and Demonic Possession. Protestantism denounced the Cult of Saints, but the Catholic Church never did. Sainthood however is a thing that needs to be properly checked and miracles need proofs before they are accepted, that proof being that you can't find any other logical explanation beyond the fact it was God's will. It's very codified procedure involving a lot of paperwork. And also where we got the famous Devil's Advocate, as in trials of Sainthood he is supposed to dismiss and contradict the candidate's sanctity.
As for Demonic Possession, the Church does have official Exorcists in charge of dealing with that. The truth is that more often than not they're more proto-psychatrist with a religious vibe (roughly), but they do think they have to deal with real possession from time to time and are officially allowed to do so.
Of course, Saints and Exorcists aren't qualified as magicians, even if what they do could be considered a form of magic.

Basically, it's not that the Church doesn't believe in magic. It's more that most magic practices are regarded by the Church as being heretical and sinful, and thus magicians, witches and other magic users are considered either charlatans & liars (thus sinners) or heretics, pagans and/or devil worshippers (thus bigger sinners).

That part is kind of on point... But again, the problem wasn't really the belief in magic: it was more the practice.

You are correct, up until a point, the difference is that, all of this is not contrary to the the nature of God, angels, & demons. Thus what would be magic when conducted by the will of a human is not magic for them. It's only actual magic in the sense that we moderns speak of it when it is contrary to the nature of the one preforming it.

Often times, the "magic" in ritual magic would be binding a demon to a contract or something, as if a being more powerful that humans would have to abide by human terms. Which was considered just as impossible by the Church as someone raining down fire on their own. If the demon chose to respond, & God allowed them to act, the demon's part wouldn't technically be magic because they always had that ability. But the human would be guilty of the heresy of believing that ritual magic existed, since they tried.

It just doesn't help that the vocabulary for making these distinctions (if the writer was even aware of it) isn't often used historically or in modern times.

Witch Hunt generally went after scapegoats true, but they were generally accused of practicing witchcraft because they were doing stuff that was regarded as weird and non-conformative by the crowd. And that wasn't accusations thrown at witches alone: Jews were often the target of such accusations (probably not helped by the discovery of texts from the Kabbale...), as were probably other "deviant" groups.

The last thing to mention is that Witch Hunts generally weren't highly regarded by the Church. Mostly because it was more commonly the results of actions from laymen and thus not clergymen. Heresy is serious business for the Church so it needs to follow proper procedure, trials and courts. Witch Hunts however are activities that generally don't give a fuck about all that and rarely bother calling the Inquisition... And when the latter gets involved, it can still be hijacked by lay authorities.

Pretty correct.