That still doesn't lead to Maxamillian aiding the CSA during the war nor northern Mexico joining the CSA during the war. It sure won't lead to northern Mexico after the war. And a CSA victory will not lead to the Juarez being cut off from US aid, at best the CSA would hold a small fraction of Arizona Territory.
Ways for CSA to Win Civil War?
- Thread starter Baconheimer
- Start date
That still doesn't lead to Maxamillian aiding the CSA during the war nor northern Mexico joining the CSA during the war. It sure won't lead to northern Mexico after the war. And a CSA victory will not lead to the Juarez being cut off from US aid, at best the CSA would hold a small fraction of Arizona Territory.
Reggie Bartlett
Banned
Of course, not during the war, but if Maxamillian is put in charge it allows for alot of things in the post-war environment.
And after all, the "Arizona Territory" that the Confederates are holding is the one they created, everything north of it is TTL's New Mexico.
amphibulous
Banned
Which was impossible for reasons already given in the thread and accessible in any decent history of the war.
A gambit... could you be a tad more specific?
It's way way way too big.Update: This CSA will include:
Maryland and Delaware included? Delaware might have a few things to say about that, especially considering that most of its citizens fought for the Union, and were entirely loyal to it.....regardless of it being a slave state.
Don't think you could possibly get delaware with an ACW POD. Needs to be earlier.
MarshalBraginsky
Banned
I did cover a portion of the American Civil War for one of my TLs, and those three generals mentioned above were killed off first. Simply put, having the Confederates hold on the Cracker Line would have resulted in bogging down the Union forces.
Reggie Bartlett
Banned
The CSA doesn't get Maryland or Delaware, period.
The CS holding Kentucky, sure. But the CSA gets Oklahoma, no ifs-ands or-buts.
Anaxagoras
Banned
There are several things that can make a Confederate victory more likely, including but not limited to the following:
1) No voluntary cotton embargo, which IOTL was intended to pressure Britain and France to intervene on the Confederacy's behalf but in fact only cost the Confederate badly needed cash and made it more difficult to sell government bonds. If the Confederates did this, they would have more money and inflation would be less than it was IOTL.
2) Have Lee remain on the strategic defensive in the East, with no futile and costly offensives across the Potomac River. Also, have him be a little less reckless on a tactical level, with no frontal assaults on Malvern Hill, Cemetary Ridge, or the Brock Road in the Wilderness. Lee was a great general, but his aggressive instincts cost the South dearly.
3) Never promote John Bell Hood beyond the level of divisional commander.
4) Have any of the following people fall off their horses and die: Lucius Northop, Braxton Bragg, Leonidas Polk.
5) Have Joseph Wheeler be as good at reconnaissance as he was at fighting.
Generally speaking, barring foreign intervention, the only way the Confederacy had a chance at achieving its independence was making the war so costly for the Union in terms of blood and treasure that the Northern public decides the victory is not worth such a high cost and elects an administration pledged to peace in 1864. If the political will to continue the war remains intact, the Union must eventually prevail.
1) No voluntary cotton embargo, which IOTL was intended to pressure Britain and France to intervene on the Confederacy's behalf but in fact only cost the Confederate badly needed cash and made it more difficult to sell government bonds. If the Confederates did this, they would have more money and inflation would be less than it was IOTL.
2) Have Lee remain on the strategic defensive in the East, with no futile and costly offensives across the Potomac River. Also, have him be a little less reckless on a tactical level, with no frontal assaults on Malvern Hill, Cemetary Ridge, or the Brock Road in the Wilderness. Lee was a great general, but his aggressive instincts cost the South dearly.
3) Never promote John Bell Hood beyond the level of divisional commander.
4) Have any of the following people fall off their horses and die: Lucius Northop, Braxton Bragg, Leonidas Polk.
5) Have Joseph Wheeler be as good at reconnaissance as he was at fighting.
Generally speaking, barring foreign intervention, the only way the Confederacy had a chance at achieving its independence was making the war so costly for the Union in terms of blood and treasure that the Northern public decides the victory is not worth such a high cost and elects an administration pledged to peace in 1864. If the political will to continue the war remains intact, the Union must eventually prevail.
And removing them gets us another Joe Johnston with a better ability to work with Davis. Not what the Confederacy needs.
What do you have against the second most successful army commander in the Confederacy (Bragg)?
MarshalBraginsky
Banned
One good but unusual way of having the Confederacy boost its chances of winning the Civil War is through preventing the Union from opening up the Cracker Line. With the deaths of Grant, Thomas and one other Union general whose name I forgot, there will be a few competent union generals leading their armies by the time the Second Siege of Chattanooga occurs. While the Union Army may be large, if the Confederate Army could bottle up those Union soldiers on Perryville or Chattanooga, they can easily drain the Union of good combat soldiers.
Charles Fergusson Smith, if you mean my list. Some other Smith whose first name escapes me for the Cracker Line specifically.
But getting rid of them just gets rid of the first men I can think of, not the Union's only hopes (after all, it lost Smith OTL and few people even remember him).
Meanwhile, bottling up Union soldiers in Perryville or Chattanooga is easier said than done. The Confederacy has a harder time keeping the Cracker Line closed than the Union does opening it.
Not saying it's impossible - but a lot has to go right for Quarrelsome's subordniates to act like soldiers.
No way the CSA would hold Maryland and Delaware, especially without Oklahoma/Sequoyah.
The obvious answer may simply be to focus enough on defense (and maybe a more successful Kentucky campaign which slows down the Union Army) that Lincoln is seen as a failure and a Peace Democrat is elected in 1864 (McClellan opposed his own party's platform of ending the war, and presumably would not have as president).
The obvious answer may simply be to focus enough on defense (and maybe a more successful Kentucky campaign which slows down the Union Army) that Lincoln is seen as a failure and a Peace Democrat is elected in 1864 (McClellan opposed his own party's platform of ending the war, and presumably would not have as president).
Go back far enough, and you won't have an ACW anything like OTL's to change.
Yeah, I think the Chattanooga thing - IF the AoT acts as an army - is a very good start for a post-1862 POD.
But that if is an immense challenge even with a POD IN 1861. The AoT was full of insubordinate cusses who should have been shot.
MarshalBraginsky
Banned
It's just that in my TL where I had the CSA as an independent nation, I realized that Gettysburg, Antietam and probably Viksburg are PoDs that are often over used. So I had to search for an unusual PoD.
Reggie Bartlett
Banned
The Indian Nations in what would become Oklahoma officially sided with the CSA, and had many men fight in the Confederate army.
Those Indian Nations were largely under Confederate control didn't surrender until a couple months after Lee did, the last being the Cherokee Chief and Confederate General, Stand Watie.
In anywhere from an 1861-1864 victory scenario, it ends up in the CSA.