And it's not a terribly plausible development under the circumstances there.
Wagner’s Germany: An Axis Victory TL
- Thread starter CrimsonKing
- Start date
And it's not a terribly plausible development under the circumstances there.
Speaking of the Middle East, will we soon see more action there, plus the Palestinian conflict?
For example, more political success for the SSNP in the territories which aims to unify in a single Syrian nation, specially Syria and Lebanon. The SSNP's founder leader, Lebanese Antoun Saadeh, was a great admirer of Hitler. And if I'm not mistaken, Weber's Germany has used it.
For example, more political success for the SSNP in the territories which aims to unify in a single Syrian nation, specially Syria and Lebanon. The SSNP's founder leader, Lebanese Antoun Saadeh, was a great admirer of Hitler. And if I'm not mistaken, Weber's Germany has used it.
Well, I remember discussing the problems surrounding it with you at the time it was posted, so you can find my objections there.
Honestly I don't remember Axis Turkey on A Storm of Steel and Fire. That gives an excuse to read it again, as if I needed one,
Having Wagner not take the Czech rump state was sheer brilliance. I’ve often wondered why Hitler did that prior to taking care of his other wants (namely the Polish Corridor). Had he acted as the “protectorate” of that state he would have almost guaranteed his ability to exert the same type of pressure and gotten the West to cave in again.
I had thought of a different scenario along the same lines which you may find interesting. Supposing that after the Munich pact had been concluded that Germany had goaded Poland into attacking the rump state. While constantly pushing Poland to take the land that was rightfully Polish territory and then once Poland jumped, using that as a pretext to attack Poland. Britain would have found themselves allies with Germany against Poland. If the Soviet Union would have kicked in against Germany attacking a Soviet buffer state, you now have a completely different WWII with Germany, Britain and France against the Soviet Union. Picture that one….
I had thought of a different scenario along the same lines which you may find interesting. Supposing that after the Munich pact had been concluded that Germany had goaded Poland into attacking the rump state. While constantly pushing Poland to take the land that was rightfully Polish territory and then once Poland jumped, using that as a pretext to attack Poland. Britain would have found themselves allies with Germany against Poland. If the Soviet Union would have kicked in against Germany attacking a Soviet buffer state, you now have a completely different WWII with Germany, Britain and France against the Soviet Union. Picture that one….
In retrospect, most of the British high command will probably agree that continuing the war was a mistake. The thing they're worried about is the economic and military potential of a German-dominated Europe, once freed from the constraints of the war and the blockade, which was cutting off imports of important raw materials. But on the whole, their situation were they to agree to a settlement now would probably have been better than the one they will be faced with when they eventually come to terms some time from now.
Here's a very oblique hint: the answer to this question will become clear substantially sooner than the start of the Axis-Soviet war itself.
The Middle East will feature prominently in this TL. There are some matters to cover before getting to it, but it will soon be highlighted.
This sounds like an interesting discussion. What page of the A Storm of Steel and Fire thread does it begin on?
I'm glad you liked Wagner's moves vis a vis the Czech rump. My understanding is that in OTL Hitler believed that the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact would convince the Anglo-French not to come to Poland's aid. Still, it's certainly true that pushing the corridor first is the safer course of action.
Your scenario is rather interesting. The idea of a Germany which goes east before going west is sometimes done, as in Goring's Reich, but I don't remember a TL which has a grand anti-Soviet alliance.
Well, it turns out I only had one post talking about Turkey: https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...rnate-ww2-history.284491/page-32#post-8910905
At any rate, that timeline strikes me as not very sophisticated in hindsight, what with OOC aggressor Stalin, Japan attacking into Siberia and winning, Japan doing even better than OTL despite the Allies being better prepared and a front in Siberia to fight on as well, the Italians fixing their problems too easily, the Nazis not being evil enough (somehow alienating the Poles less than the Soviets ITTL do), the whole Notzi shebang. Still, I think the points about Turkey I had are sufficient: namely, that the USSR was a harder target than the Middle East, and had fewer potential gains for them. An attack southwards makes more sense, but their leadership was (rightfully) very cautious, so you'd need a good explanation for them to abandon neutrality.
Like I said I’ve thought about this for a number of years and really don’t understand why Hitler wasn’t able to see how he could have manipulated this situation once Britain and France gave him Czech.
Poland, Hungary and Romania were all eager to obtain new territory and were all trying to cozy up to Germany when they saw the balance of power shift in Europe in the spring of 1938 when Germany absorbed Austria. Once the Allies gave in to Germany in Munich and Germany grabbed the Sudetenland I would think they would all start casting eyes on coveted territories. I would think that Hitler would have been able to talk Poland’s foreign minister Jozef Beck into grabbing their share of Czech land, telling them that Hungary was prepared to do the same thing, and they better hurry. Once the Polish soldiers were on the border Germany could have created something to get some shooting to occur. I believe Germany, France and Great Britain guaranteed the borders of the rump state of Czech after Munich. So if Poland attacked, Germany was in position to attack Poland (supposedly in defense of Czech) with France and Britain in the curious position of having to support Germany (as allies). After that point trying to get the SU involved might have required some manipulation, but all the Western powers were anti-Communism anyways so it probably wouldn't have taken much. Anyways an interesting scenario. Looking forward to your next post.
In setting out Turkey's eventual course of action in this timeline, I'll keep the point about its leadership's caution in mind.
I agree that getting the USSR involved would be the principal difficulty. The Soviet high command was rather cautious and would likely be wary of acting in such a way as to bring about a large anti-Soviet coalition.
The next installment will be out later today.
It's update time. Comments???
Wagner at the balcony of the Reich Chancellery.
In early June it seemed that such a conclusive peace might just be in the offing. The implementation of the French armistice gave Germany temporary control over northern France. In return, the rump state over which Marshal Philippe Petain had recently consolidated control was successful in securing the concession that any reparations be delayed until a final settlement was reached.(a) This was to be the first in a series of events which together constituted a remarkable turnabout in Franco-German relations, culminating in the admission of Petian’s collaborationist regime to the Axis Alliance (covered in the next chapter). With the siege of Gibraltar underway, Wagner then offered London a ceasefire under the following terms: 1. The British blockade of Germany, its allies, and the areas under its control was to be lifted. 2. An exchange of prisoners would be made (this of course would be greatly to Britain’s benefit since hundreds of thousands of British prisoners of the former BEF were in German hands whereas virtually no Volkswehr personnel had been made prisoners of war). If these terms were accepted, the negotiation of a final peace accord would then follow. It was however strongly hinted that recognition on the part of Britain of the various puppet/collaborationist governments the Germans were moving to install in occupied western Europe would be necessary for such an accord, although demilitarization of the sections of coastline most threatening to Britain could be negotiated.
Winston Churchill taking up residence at 10 Downing Street.
The British leadership was of two minds on how to respond to the German proposal. On the one hand, the unending string of Allied disasters since the beginning of the war was not in the least encouraging of the prospect of a change of fortune. The desire on the part of the public to see the captives of the BEF return home safely should also not be underestimated. These factors influenced Prime Minister Halifax to recommend acceptance of Wagner’s terms. On the other hand, the absolute superiority of the Royal Navy when set against the Kriegsmarine ruled out a serious danger of invasion for the time being. In a more general sense, as all knew, the lifting of the blockade would allow the economic bloc being assembled by the NSVP to reach its potential, something which in the long run Britain could not hope to compete with.(b) Winston Churchill was the most prominent advocate of this later position.
A British merchant vessel bound for the US east coast.
In the event, actions on the other side of the Atlantic would decide the issue. In early May, at around the same time as the German breakthroughs at Sedan and Maastricht, Congress had opened debate on what became popularly known as the “Cash and Lift” bill, which allowed the purchase of weapons by foreigners as long as they carried their cargo in their own merchant vessels.(c) In practice, only the Allies were in a position to make use of this option, as a result of their command of the seas and larger reserves of foreign currency. The shock of the fall of Paris late in the month brought the debate to an abrupt end. On June 1st, at the same time as Wagner was receiving the applause of the Berlin crowds, President Dewey signed the bill into law. With the encouragement that at least part of the immense manufacturing the United States would soon be at their disposal, the War Cabinet decided in Churchill’s favor. In disgrace, Halifax stepped down, to be succeeded by Churchill on the 10th. Within hours of the new prime minister’s ascension, the ceasefire was rejected. The war would continue.
Notes:
(a) This means no looting as in OTL, which is significant as regards France’s and the Low Countries’ economic future.
(b) A point made by The Wages of Destruction.
(c) A slightly different name than historically.
Part 4
Global War
Chapter 1
A Sleeping Giant Stirs
Never in living memory had Berlin seen an occasion as joyously celebrated as the formal conclusion of the armistice with France on the First of June, 1941. The festivities which had accompanied the acquisition of Austria, the Sudetenland, and Danzig, grand as they had been, could not compare. Huge crowds thronged the downtown streets, seemingly stretching as far as the eye could see, beneath the midday summer sun. “Their continuous cheers of ‘Heil!’ ‘Heil!’ ‘Heil!’ were very different from the orchestrated chants at the great Party rallies in Munich,” wrote the New York Times’s German correspondent. “These had not been coordinated or rehearsed beforehand, and consequently blended into each other, creating one great continual cacophony. On the balcony of the Reich Chancellery, Wagner himself stood, smiling and waving often to those gathered below. If an increase in popular support for his rule was still possible, it became a reality on that noon.” Whether they lived for another six weeks or six decades, no one who was there would forget it before their dying day. The stain of the humiliation of 1918 and the Treaty of Versailles had been utterly expunged, and complete victory seemed to be merely a very short time away. That the British would soon come to terms was taken as a matter of course.Global War
Chapter 1
A Sleeping Giant Stirs
Wagner at the balcony of the Reich Chancellery.
In early June it seemed that such a conclusive peace might just be in the offing. The implementation of the French armistice gave Germany temporary control over northern France. In return, the rump state over which Marshal Philippe Petain had recently consolidated control was successful in securing the concession that any reparations be delayed until a final settlement was reached.(a) This was to be the first in a series of events which together constituted a remarkable turnabout in Franco-German relations, culminating in the admission of Petian’s collaborationist regime to the Axis Alliance (covered in the next chapter). With the siege of Gibraltar underway, Wagner then offered London a ceasefire under the following terms: 1. The British blockade of Germany, its allies, and the areas under its control was to be lifted. 2. An exchange of prisoners would be made (this of course would be greatly to Britain’s benefit since hundreds of thousands of British prisoners of the former BEF were in German hands whereas virtually no Volkswehr personnel had been made prisoners of war). If these terms were accepted, the negotiation of a final peace accord would then follow. It was however strongly hinted that recognition on the part of Britain of the various puppet/collaborationist governments the Germans were moving to install in occupied western Europe would be necessary for such an accord, although demilitarization of the sections of coastline most threatening to Britain could be negotiated.
Winston Churchill taking up residence at 10 Downing Street.
The British leadership was of two minds on how to respond to the German proposal. On the one hand, the unending string of Allied disasters since the beginning of the war was not in the least encouraging of the prospect of a change of fortune. The desire on the part of the public to see the captives of the BEF return home safely should also not be underestimated. These factors influenced Prime Minister Halifax to recommend acceptance of Wagner’s terms. On the other hand, the absolute superiority of the Royal Navy when set against the Kriegsmarine ruled out a serious danger of invasion for the time being. In a more general sense, as all knew, the lifting of the blockade would allow the economic bloc being assembled by the NSVP to reach its potential, something which in the long run Britain could not hope to compete with.(b) Winston Churchill was the most prominent advocate of this later position.
A British merchant vessel bound for the US east coast.
In the event, actions on the other side of the Atlantic would decide the issue. In early May, at around the same time as the German breakthroughs at Sedan and Maastricht, Congress had opened debate on what became popularly known as the “Cash and Lift” bill, which allowed the purchase of weapons by foreigners as long as they carried their cargo in their own merchant vessels.(c) In practice, only the Allies were in a position to make use of this option, as a result of their command of the seas and larger reserves of foreign currency. The shock of the fall of Paris late in the month brought the debate to an abrupt end. On June 1st, at the same time as Wagner was receiving the applause of the Berlin crowds, President Dewey signed the bill into law. With the encouragement that at least part of the immense manufacturing the United States would soon be at their disposal, the War Cabinet decided in Churchill’s favor. In disgrace, Halifax stepped down, to be succeeded by Churchill on the 10th. Within hours of the new prime minister’s ascension, the ceasefire was rejected. The war would continue.
Notes:
(a) This means no looting as in OTL, which is significant as regards France’s and the Low Countries’ economic future.
(b) A point made by The Wages of Destruction.
(c) A slightly different name than historically.
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So the war will continue! Wagner would be best to pummel the British to submission from the air
they should probably still end up cedeing serious amounts of gold from the french reserve as part of the later treaty to improve the value of german currency backing further.It's update time. Comments???
Part 4Never in living memory had Berlin seen an occasion as joyously celebrated as the formal conclusion of the armistice with France on the First of June, 1941. The festivities which had accompanied the acquisition of Austria, the Sudetenland, and Danzig, grand as they had been, could not compare. Huge crowds thronged the downtown streets, seemingly stretching as far as the eye could see, beneath the midday summer sun. “Their continuous cheers of ‘Heil!’ ‘Heil!’ ‘Heil!’ were very different from the orchestrated chants at the great Party rallies in Munich,” wrote the New York Times’s German correspondent. “These had not been coordinated or rehearsed beforehand, and consequently blended into each other, creating one great continual cacophony. On the balcony of the Reich Chancellery, Wagner himself stood, smiling and waving often to those gathered below. If an increase in popular support for his rule was still possible, it became a reality on that noon.” Whether they lived for another six weeks or six decades, no one who was there would forget it before their dying day. The stain of the humiliation of 1918 and the Treaty of Versailles had been utterly expunged, and complete victory seemed to be merely a very short time away. That the British would soon come to terms was taken as a matter of course.
Global War
Chapter 1
A Sleeping Giant Stirs
Wagner at the balcony of the Reich Chancellery.
In early June it seemed that such a conclusive peace might just be in the offing. The implementation of the French armistice gave Germany temporary control over northern France. In return, the rump state over which Marshal Philippe Petain had recently consolidated control was successful in securing the concession that any reparations be delayed until a final settlement was reached.(a) This was to be the first in a series of events which together constituted a remarkable turnabout in Franco-German relations, culminating in the admission of Petian’s collaborationist regime to the Axis Alliance (covered in the next chapter). With the siege of Gibraltar underway, Wagner then offered London a ceasefire under the following terms: 1. The British blockade of Germany, its allies, and the areas under its control was to be lifted. 2. An exchange of prisoners would be made (this of course would be greatly to Britain’s benefit since hundreds of thousands of British prisoners of the former BEF were in German hands whereas virtually no Volkswehr personnel had been made prisoners of war). If these terms were accepted, the negotiation of a final peace accord would then follow. It was however strongly hinted that recognition on the part of Britain of the various puppet/collaborationist governments the Germans were moving to install in occupied western Europe would be necessary for such an accord, although demilitarization of the sections of coastline most threatening to Britain could be negotiated.
Winston Churchill taking up residence at 10 Downing Street.
The British leadership was of two minds on how to respond to the German proposal. On the one hand, the unending string of Allied disasters since the beginning of the war was not in the least encouraging of the prospect of a change of fortune. The desire on the part of the public to see the captives of the BEF return home safely should also not be underestimated. These factors influenced Prime Minister Halifax to recommend acceptance of Wagner’s terms. On the other hand, the absolute superiority of the Royal Navy when set against the Kriegsmarine ruled out a serious danger of invasion for the time being. In a more general sense, as all knew, the lifting of the blockade would allow the economic bloc being assembled by the NSVP to reach its potential, something which in the long run Britain could not hope to compete with.(b) Winston Churchill was the most prominent advocate of this later position.
A British merchant vessel bound for the US east coast.
In the event, actions on the other side of the Atlantic would decide the issue. In early May, at around the same time as the German breakthroughs at Sedan and Maastricht, Congress had opened debate on what became popularly known as the “Cash and Lift” bill, which allowed the purchase of weapons by foreigners as long as they carried their cargo in their own merchant vessels.(c) In practice, only the Allies were in a position to make use of this option, as a result of their command of the seas and larger reserves of foreign currency. The shock of the fall of Paris late in the month brought the debate to an abrupt end. On June 1st, at the same time as Wagner was receiving the applause of the Berlin crowds, President Dewey signed the bill into law. With the encouragement that at least part of the immense manufacturing the United States would soon be at their disposal, the War Cabinet decided in Churchill’s favor. In disgrace, Halifax stepped down, to be succeeded by Churchill on the 10th. Within hours of the new prime minister’s ascension, the ceasefire was rejected. The war would continue.
Notes:
(a) This means no looting as in OTL, which is significant as regards France’s and the Low Countries’ economic future.
(b) A point made by The Wages of Destruction.
(c) A slightly different name than historically.
paratroopers + shunted german jet engines+ shunted german rockets + naval bombers+ anti ship rockets
Awesome update! This should help the Germans by making the Soviets think Germany will be occupied with the UK for a bit longer.
I rather prefer another TL's take on it, where Germany basically let the British come to them, and making the huge OTL German loses Britain's instead.
Wagner should probably commit his air assets into bludgeoning Malta into submission - the British wouldn't be able to replace losses down there quickly enough to contest the place for too long, compared to the OTL Battle of Britain. Either concurrently or after that, bring the Balkans and the Middle East to heel. Hopefully by then the British would have been forced to flush away most of their remaining fiscal resources in defense, and would have to throw in the towel.
Count Valerian
Banned
Well that was a surprise...
...but on one hand, Britain agreeing to peace might be an instance of too much good luck for the Axis. OTOH, Wagner is too smart to make the same blunders as IOTL. One, he knows the Kriegsmarine is no match for the Royal Navy, and was always built as a commerce raider force anyway. Also, Britain is America's tripwire in the Atlantic, and a past update already mentioned the Nazis want to make damn sure the Americans stay out of the war no matter what, at least as far as sending troops are concerned. Even an attempted invasion would probably not be seen well on the American end.
So how to force the British back to the negotiating table? There's the OTL option: a bombing campaign. As Germany has heavy bombers it can be done, but I don't think Wagner would do it. He knows experienced pilots are hard to find and get, and he won't squander them over the British Isles, as he would later need them against the Soviets. So submarines it is...under cruiser rules of course. As someone mentioned in the past in this thread, even with cruiser rules enough U-boats and commerce raiders in the North Sea and the Atlantic would choke Britain. And if the British form up armed convoys, then cruiser rules go out the window. Finally, Germany can close the Mediterranean, what with Spain, Italy, and even France by its side. This means resources from the Empire have to take the long route around the Cape of Good Hope, lengthening journey times and increasing wear and tear on both merchant ships and merchant crews alike. And that doesn't mention the effects of France potentially opening new fronts in West and Central Africa, in addition to Axis control of the Middle East.
...but on one hand, Britain agreeing to peace might be an instance of too much good luck for the Axis. OTOH, Wagner is too smart to make the same blunders as IOTL. One, he knows the Kriegsmarine is no match for the Royal Navy, and was always built as a commerce raider force anyway. Also, Britain is America's tripwire in the Atlantic, and a past update already mentioned the Nazis want to make damn sure the Americans stay out of the war no matter what, at least as far as sending troops are concerned. Even an attempted invasion would probably not be seen well on the American end.
So how to force the British back to the negotiating table? There's the OTL option: a bombing campaign. As Germany has heavy bombers it can be done, but I don't think Wagner would do it. He knows experienced pilots are hard to find and get, and he won't squander them over the British Isles, as he would later need them against the Soviets. So submarines it is...under cruiser rules of course. As someone mentioned in the past in this thread, even with cruiser rules enough U-boats and commerce raiders in the North Sea and the Atlantic would choke Britain. And if the British form up armed convoys, then cruiser rules go out the window. Finally, Germany can close the Mediterranean, what with Spain, Italy, and even France by its side. This means resources from the Empire have to take the long route around the Cape of Good Hope, lengthening journey times and increasing wear and tear on both merchant ships and merchant crews alike. And that doesn't mention the effects of France potentially opening new fronts in West and Central Africa, in addition to Axis control of the Middle East.
What timeline is that if I might ask?
And agreed, another awesome update Crimson! Will be interesting to see what the BoB looks like in this timeline.
It will be very interesting to see how Wagner gets Petain's French regime - (I don't think Petain has set up shop in Vichy ITTL, and if he moves the capital back to Paris quickly there won't be the tacked-on "Vichy" and they will just be known as the "French State") - on side, forestalling the rise of the Free French.