Vinland-Mesoamerican Trade
- Thread starter Hawkeye
- Start date
That's a good question. I was assuming that the OP was referring to sailors from Vinland actually sailing to Mesoamerica themselves, but of course their cultural influence could be felt even through many many layers of intermediaries.
You could still have cattle, pigs, sheep and maybe even horses make their way to Mesoamerica. You could still have the Vinlanders acquire tobacco and introduce it to Europe. And you could still have cultural interchange - it would just be slower if it wasn't direct, and neither the Vinlanders nor the Mesoamericans would likely know who was at the other end of their long trade route.
Faeelin
Banned
We know that in OTL epidemics managed to spread across the entire New World based on intermittent contacts, so the diseases will spread and hit the Hochelga.
In that case, I think the TL needs to keep with the concept of coastal trade, exploration, and raiding. There is no reason that Vinlanders couldn't have explored far enough south along the western coast of North America and through the Gulf and western Caribbean to reach Yucatan within 100 years of establishing their colony in Newfoundland. Once there, they would encounter either Tarascans or Maya coastal traders with the Vinlanders in a position to clear technological advantage.
One way or the other, you need to butterfly away the effects of disease once they reach the densly populated MesoAmerican Urban centers.
This is what makes the concept of diffusion of ideas through intermediariaes so attractive. As draft animals, iron technology, wheels, etc gradually spread south, so would the disease, but the lower population densities in North America and time required for this slower cultural exchange to occur might allow local populations to develop develop immunities. So when the Vinlanders finally do make direct contact with Meso America proper the MesoAmerican civilizations have not only survived but they are at least familiar with the kind of technology the Vinlanders have, but may also have adopted some of it themselves, making them much more able to withstand the contact (and possible attempts at conquest).
If Vinland had such vibrant trade and became a thriving colony, how long would it take for them to lose their Viking heritage from intermarriage? By the time other European explorers came, how strong could a Viking colony be and how numerous? Would they be able to repulse other Europeans? For how long? Would they trade with Europe and advance their weaponry?
These are all good questions. And I think the answer depends on how large the population of Vinland is and if people continue to move from the Norse homelands to Vinland.
If the Norse population of Vinlnad remains small and it is essentially isolated from the rest of the Norse world, I suspect there's a good chance it would lose much of its cultural and racial European character. It would blend Norse and Native technologies, language, religions, and culture into a hybrid culture only marginally better equipped to withstand 16th Century Spaniards or Englishmen with their guns than native Americans were. They would have some technological advantages the native didn't have, such as iron technology, draft animals, and perhaps a recognizeable Norse-based script...all of which might make European colonial powers more likely to deal with them as equals...maybe.
If Vinland continues to draw Norse people as settlers and maintain a continuing relationship with developing kingdoms in Denmark and Norway as well as among Anglo-Saxon settlers in the British Isles, then it would become a well-known European outpost on a large continental land mass. There would be far less cultural hybridization. It would probably retain its veneer of Chistianity and Norse culture. This would accelerate the rate of other European (and almost certainly Islamic) explorations to the west. This would create an entirely different trajectory of colonization and conquest in the New World, but the Natives peoples would still probably end up on the short end of the stick.
Maur
Banned
I dont think there is much reason for the Norse to undergo big cultural changes influenced by others. Sure, there would be changes due to new foodstuff or changed material culture (and by 1500, by mere passage of 4-5 centuries), but the area they are likely to settle on is too sparsely populated to impact them too much.
Maur
Banned
Well, Mesoamericans have precious metals... someone mentioned tobacco. I guess there is some more stuff that usually got traded in these times. Idk, dyes?
I was under the impression that the rest of Europe were really not privy to Viking expeditions in the Atlantic. So, if Vinland was successful and sustainable, they would trade with Iceland and Greenland, perhaps keeping Greenland's colony alive as it would be sustained as an intermediary for European trade.
However, if Vinland is started and essentially becomes closed off from the outside world, that means no gun powder and while the germs and steel won't get them, the guns will.
You've raised an important question. Based on the French and English trade networks, the main commodity would be furs and hides, but this was in part driven by a global European trade network...something that the Vinlanders would not be part of, at least at first. For the French and Spanish, another big trade item initiallywas war captives as slaves, and the Mississippian cultures were already well suited to this. However, extensive use of Native American slaves was not profitable because of the disease issue. Plus why would the Vinlanders need many slaves? The other thing that Europesn typically traded for was military allies. Guns (or in the Vinlander's case iron/steel edged weapons) traded for protection against other colonies or aggressive native tribes. But Otherwise, there really wouldn't be much except for curiosities. The Vinlanders might trade for maize products (flatbreads, corn cakes, etc) and other agricultural produce, but I wouldn't see this being that important since most native crops did not grow well that far north.
They weren't to any detail, but they certainly were aware of Iceland. If Vinland became sustainable and maintained regular contact and population exchange with other Norse settlemenmts in Greenland and Iceland, it would only be a matter of time before the existence of Vinland would become known to people in Denmark and Norway and further extend whever Vikings traded, settled, or conquered.
True, but that could be over 100 years or so. I mean, the EUropeans believed in legends like Prester John and there were no oceans separating East and West. Barring proper ship technology and methods of sailing, the Europeans will be out of the loop for perhaps centuries, even if the Vikings were wildly successful at their colonization.
Faeelin
Banned
I don't think they'd be out of the loop. Vinland was explicitly part of the Catholic Church, for instance; a couple of Greenlander Bishops went looking for it. And the woman who gave birth in North America (accoridng to the sagas) later ended up on a pilgrimage to Rome.
Possible, but the Catholic Church theoretically had a Bishop for Assyria. No idea if he lived there, or if there was any communication back. I believe India's Christians were supposedly Oriental Orthodox with a Bishop. Yet, while Europe had contact with Oriental Orthodox through Egypt, they didn't even know where India was located, and thought Prester John is there.
So, I am not totally convinced.
Faeelin
Banned
How many people form Assyria were making pilgrimages to Rome?
Does it mean everyone will go there? No. But it will be part of the Christian worldview, even if, like Iceland and Greenland, the Church runs its own affairs.
Non made up people? I am not sure. Probably some unlike any legends about Vineland OTL. Their Bishops had jurisdiction as far as China, yet they had some contact with the west http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_Church_of_the_East
The RCC was more centralized than Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox, but I am unsure how much real contact they had with Greenland, let alone a Vineland. Further, even if missionaries do make the leap across the pond, it will be on Viking ships with Viking sailors that knew how to get it done. The rest of Europe at that time could not and would not for some time.
Faeelin
Banned
I'm not sure that's true. By the 14th century, it was North Germans who were fishing off of Iceland (and presumably trading in Greenland, although that's not clear), and by the 15th century, the English were off of Iceland as well. that's wihtout Vinland as an attractive trading partner at the other end of the Atlantic...
Yes, but that's a difference of hundreds of years. My point is, even if Vineland is a prosperous merchant state, there is no guarantee that Europeans will have a firm idea of where this stuff was really coming from. I mean, didn't they think silk was grown on foreign trees and stuff like that?