Vikings of the Pacific - or how a maimed man and a few goats changed history

Vikings of the Pacific

Or how a maimed man and a few goats changed history.

This is intended to be a reboot / restart of an old TL i started a few years back and then (tragically) let die: Link


The overal premise is both simple and complex,
as is the location and region, and peoples involved.

Time Period of the POD. Roughly 1000 - 1500 BC.
Location. Pacific Northwest Coast.

The first POD is as follows. The wild mountain goats of the coast mountains are domesticated. In OTL every spring, native peoples along the coast would hike up into the rugged mountains to collect the wool the goats would shed. This wool was used to weave blankets and other items that would be worth a fortune in their cultures. Sooner or later, given enough time, it seems logical that these goats would be domesticated (or people would at least attempt to do so).

This will be a TL that focuses on such an event. An event that leads (indirectly) to the domestication of goats that will be brought to the Queen Charlotte Islands by the Haidian people.

The second POD will be an increase in proto agriculture, which was practiced by many coastal peoples in OTL. The cause of this second POD? The damage to local environments caused by a large population of goats on relatively small islands, denuding wild stocks of edible / medicinal plants.

Finally, these two PODs will form to cause a population BOOM (due to the increase in food production above OTL levels) on the Queen Charlotte Islands. What happens when a population grows to large in a small region? They adopt better techniques, or expand (or die). This increase in conflict will (hopefully) eventually lead to technological development greater than OTL and all the interesting PODs that will likely result because of it.


So this is my overall idea for this TL.


Please throw out suggestions / comments / ideas!
Please discuss!


All comments are welcome. This TL is still in the "planning / developing" stage, so bring it on. :)


Cheers!​
 
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I will be following intensely. Can't wait to see the Haida interactions with Asian castaways (the Tlingit at least apparently found what they could scavenge interesting). The Pacific Northwest will shudder under their raids, forcing the Salishans and others to adapt or suffer.
 
Well... A population boom on a small island followed by advances in seacraft will certainly lead to colonization attempts by the Haidian people. Rather than straight up vikings, they are more likely to become Greek or Phoenician like. The tradition of Councils of Elders will make this more likely analogue.

A League might form among the far off colonies and further encouraging trade and colonize further. There is more to be had through stable and constant trading than through piracy, and with their virtual monopoly on the West Coast piracy will only hurt their revenues longterm.

Vikings are raiders because of the relative scarcity of resources on their lands, a problem the Haidians won't have. They'll expand on the continent first right across the strait.
 
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So, are we gonna see caribou domestication? Presumably of the (now extinct OTL) Queen Charlotte Islands caribou subspecies?

Well... A population boom on a small island followed by advances in seacraft will certainly lead to colonization attempts by the Haidian people. Rather than straight up vikings, they are more likely to become Greek or Phoenician like. The tradition of Councils of Elders will make this more likely analogue.

A League might form among the far off colonies and further encouraging trade and colonize further. There is more to be had through stable and constant trading than through piracy, and with their virtual monopoly on the West Coast piracy will only hurt their revenues longterm.

Vikings are raiders because of the relative scarcity of resources on their lands, a problem the Haidians won't have. They'll expand on the continent first right across the strait.

Doesn't seem right. The Haida, like many Pacific Northwest societies, were very reliant on slavery. Any sort of agriculture seems to me like it would only increase that reliance--dedicate a task generally not needed but helpful to the members of society who mean the least. And Haida Gwaii isn't very much in terms of resources. Anything there can be found better elsewhere in the region. But that said, colonisation and slave-raiding can go hand in hand. And it isn't like the Salishans, Tlingit, or other potential victims won't be able to adapt to the suddenly changed situation before long.
 
Cool idea.

The second POD will be an increase in photo agriculture, which was practiced by many coastal peoples in OTL. The cause of this second POD? The damage to local environments caused by a large population of goats on relatively small islands, denuding wild stocks of edible / medicinal plants.
When I googled "photo agriculture" I got, you guessed it, photographs of agriculture. An explanation for the ignorant?
 
I'm go glad to see this back! I missed it when it disappeared the first time around.

Just curious, what is the difference in meaning between "Haidian" and "Haida". Is "Haidian" a broader group which includes the Haida as well as other related people (like "Iroquoain" is to "Iroquois" or "Algonkian" is to "Algonquin")??

Googling "haidian" just yields a district of Beijing
 

SRBO

Banned
Haida islands don't seem to be good for decent agriculture, which is often the problem in areas that suffered glacial rape

They must migrate south at least into Washington (basically where the fjords stop and there is still a layer of decent topsoil left)
 

SRBO

Banned
Well that's the place i was talking about

Anyway is there a crop in the area, i don't know where corn was grown in the old times of america.
 
Anyway is there a crop in the area, i don't know where corn was grown in the old times of america.

Wasn't grown anywhere west of the Great Plains except in the Puebloan communities, Navajo, and nearby areas. Too much unfertile desert and rugged landscape to spread beyond there to the West Coast.

Best potential from what I've read is probably wapato (Sagittaria cuneata and Sagittaria latifolia). Relatives of those crops are used in Asia, and they're currently farmed even now to meet demand in the Chinese community in the US. They have a very wide range and can tolerate cold well--all they need is a wet environment.
 
Hello everyone. I'm glad to see there is interest in this idea of mein! :)

My firs update will be coming early next week. Tentatively titled "of slaves and a grumpy old bear" will feature the initial POD. :)

I'm planning on having this TL a mix of "Story" and "Textbook" style updates. A few will take place around the initial POD, and then we will jump ahead a few decades and then centuries. So stay tuned and please feel free to throw / toss ideas out here. It's all welcomed. :)

Cheers.
 

SRBO

Banned
Wasn't grown anywhere west of the Great Plains except in the Puebloan communities, Navajo, and nearby areas. Too much unfertile desert and rugged landscape to spread beyond there to the West Coast.

Best potential from what I've read is probably wapato (Sagittaria cuneata and Sagittaria latifolia). Relatives of those crops are used in Asia, and they're currently farmed even now to meet demand in the Chinese community in the US. They have a very wide range and can tolerate cold well--all they need is a wet environment.


Well it's perfect for the location of the migration i proposed, Vancouver and Seattle are stereotyped as extremely rainy

But what about pack animals? There is no horse in NA unless someone from asia decides to visit, but that would probably have the same effect as the europeans - disease kills everyone
 
Ahh, the Haida- or as described in my New Albion TL: "The original wank". They have a very big reputation, which often exasperates anthropologists who object to the popular image of them as some from of dominant super-warriors that the rest of the tribes huddled in fear of.
 
Well it's perfect for the location of the migration i proposed, Vancouver and Seattle are stereotyped as extremely rainy

But what about pack animals? There is no horse in NA unless someone from asia decides to visit, but that would probably have the same effect as the europeans - disease kills everyone

Reindeer/caribou or moose make the best pack animals. Moose especially, since they'd basically be like water buffalo are to agriculture in Asia. Caribou are more plausible, though, since we know two different subspecies were domesticated at two separate occasions in Asia, and of course there already are caribou on Haida Gwaii.

Note that OTL that many native groups used dogs as pack animals (and more, like the Salish Wool Dog).
 
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