USA joins Axis

[MarshalBraginsky]

Even if you do this (you'd have to kill FDR first), neither one of them would actually be willing to join the war on the Axis side. The worst you'd get is a war confined to the Pacific, and even that's fairly unlikely due to Hitler's stupidity.

So either way, it's realisticall impossibl for the USA to join the Axis without having to pay an arm or a leg to side with Hitler. Despite the fact that the USA wouldn't be comfortable allying itself with the Soviet Union.

 

[Xachiavelli]

IMHO, this is possible, but only barely. One of the following would need to happen:

• China joins the Axis in place of Japan
• The USSR and the USA go to war somehow
• Canada carries out Plan Red before the war breaks out. The resulting conflict carries on until the war in Europe breaks out.

Not sure how plausable any of those things are, but the way i see it, America would need to basically find itself suddenly in the Axis, as opposed to actively joining it.

 

[LOTLOF]

So no one is going to mention Charles Lindberg's presidential campaign in 1940, which he could win with any chosen PoD? Lindberg was pretty much an isolationist, though I can also count on MacArthur becoming president. I'm not sure if he was pro-German or not, but this was before he was reactivated as Marshal of the philippine Army.

Even if Lindberg were somehow elected his goal was always to keep the US neutral. There is absolutely nothing to suggest he favored entering the war on either side. His goal was to avoid what he saw as a pointless and costly intervention in Europe to save Britain. Not wanting US boys to die in someone elses war doesn't equate to wanting to become a member of the Axis.

 

[d32123]

IMHO, this is possible, but only barely. One of the following would need to happen:

• China joins the Axis in place of Japan
• The USSR and the USA go to war somehow
• Canada carries out Plan Red before the war breaks out. The resulting conflict carries on until the war in Europe breaks out.

Not sure how plausable any of those things are, but the way i see it, America would need to basically find itself suddenly in the Axis, as opposed to actively joining it.

-China joins the Axis: Possible but extremely unlikely

-USSR/USA War: ASB

-War with Canada: Mega ASB

 

[MarshalBraginsky]

So I guess the color coded War Plans the USA had was pretty much good in theory, but possibly ASB at the same time.

 

[RamscoopRaider]

Alien Space Bats with mind-control rays.

I actually saw a good ASB TL that did this without the mind control rays

Edit still blatantly involving ASB intervention but more subtlety than mind control

 

[Tallest Skil]

Sorry, nothing to do specifically with this thread, but I love that the "Hitler listens to his generals" thread was stickied in ASB.

And no, you'd need a ASB/POD on the order of that CSA movie to get the US to go with the Axis' plans, even partially.

 

[Tsochar]

I tried my hand at this a couple of months ago, probably ASB:

If the US stays out of the war and makes some kind of grievous unintentional insult towards the Entente, (a later Taft presidency would be good for this, methinks) and the Entente wins anyway, then there might be some bad blood between the US, France and Britain.
Perhaps a wearier France has a peaceful socialist revolution at the time of the red scare; relations cool rapidly just in time for the anti-communist NSDAP to rise in Germany. The US agrees to non-interference in shipping and so on in the European theater.
Germany annexes Austria and invades Poland, causing France and Russia (who are socialist best buddies right now) to declare war.
France launches a surprise attack in a move to grab the Philippines, declaring war on the US. The Soviets follow afterward. The US has found itself on the same side of the war as Nazi Germany.
Britain could be on either side if the scenario requires; I'd personally put them in the axis because France, the Soviet Union, and Britain declaring war all at once would be not so much a war as a massacre, and the US wouldn't get dragged in if the war ends too quickly.

Not sure how plausible, but there's my shot at it.

 

[SAVORYapple]

I actually saw a good ASB TL that did this without the mind control rays

Edit still blatantly involving ASB intervention but more subtlety than mind control

Trebuchet's TL. Shame it dead

 

[The Kiat]

If there was still hostility in Anglo-American relations, then the US might support Germany in a war against Britain. If (repeat, if) they joined, well I guess the obvious places like Canada, the Caribbean and Guyana would fall.

Actually, a US-Japan alliance would be far likelier than one with the Nazis. If it existed, then there would be no embargo on Japan and no reason for Japan to quickly (as opposed to eventually) obtaining independent sources of fuel and minerals.

 

[HeavyWeaponsGuy]

How? What could solve it? US and Japanese interests were fundamentally opposed.

And you'd have to significantly moderate the policies of Nazi Germany. The US could probably get over anti-semitism, but genocide and conquering France are no-no's. A little more democracy (which is extremely implausible in Nazi Germany) would have helped too.

Cheers,
Ganesha

It still isn't a possibility, even with a more sympathetic Nazi Germany and Japan remaining out of the Axis.

The chips were pretty much down by the aftermath of the First World War, we weren't simply going to do an about-face on our old friends Britain and France without some serious incentive (as in OTL's Allies would basically have to be an ATL Axis), Germany meanwhile, cannot really survive without at some point bringing about a resolution to the various issues of the Treaty of Versailles, namely things like the Polish Corridor, the military, and Anschluss, all of which would constitute major violations of the ToV.

Basically, the changes that would allow for a German-American alliance would probably butterfly WWI and would easily butterfly WWII.

 

[Rich Rostrom]

How could the USA have joined the Axis in WWII?

There would have to be a breakdown in constitutional government in the US in the 1930s - driven by an economic crisis so bad that a fascist demagogue comes to power.

That's what happened in Germany. However...

The demagogue in question was a

genius

demagog. There was no one like that in the US as far as anyone knows.

The German political system was fluid and unstable. There had been a revolution and constitutional change only a few years earlier, parliamentary government with proportional election is much more open to new parties and factions, and aside from the Social Democrats and the Zentrum there were no large stable established parties in Germany.

And even with all those advantages, Hitler just barely succeeded. The Nazi vote peaked in mid 1932 - it dropped 12% in the November election. The NSDAP was out of money - literally begging on street corners. But the NSDAP and KDP between them had over half the seats, which forced the entry of the NSDAP into government. If in November the NSDAP and KPD had won a dozen fewer seats, an all-the-other-parties coalition government could have been formed, and the Nazis are frozen out.

But getting back to the U.S... Assume that some malignant amalgam of Huey Long, Boss Tweed, and Joe Kennedy gets in.

Overt alliance with Germany and Italy is still unlikely. However, it could happen if foreign alliances break right. The US was at odds with Japan, and Germany could choose to side with the white nation, while Britain, desperate to shore up its position, renewed its alliance with Japan.

The US was pro-China, and Germany supported China, sending a military advisor group. China OTL had good relations with the USSR, but that could fail - especially if the USSR takes over Xinjiang (the warlord there was pro-Soviet).

If the Depression goes that far in the US, it may splash back into Europe. Possibly France breaks down, and a Communist government gets in there. If there were actual Communist-sponsored insurrections in Latin America, that might drive the US to reach out to other anti-Communist powers.

What would have happened afterwards?

Impossible to say without knowing how it happens.

 

[MattII]

You'd really need someone else elected in 1932 who's as good as or better than Roosevelt with the economy, but inclined towards fascism.

 

[Jellicoe]

So no one is going to mention Charles Lindberg's presidential campaign in 1940, which he could win with any chosen PoD? Lindberg was pretty much an isolationist, though I can also count on MacArthur becoming president. I'm not sure if he was pro-German or not, but this was before he was reactivated as Marshal of the philippine Army.

Philip Roth's 2004 book, "The Plot Against America" covers the angle of a Lindbergh presidency in 1940. It looks at the difficulties of an American Jewish family who become fearful as anti-semitism rises.

 

[Hrvatskiwi]

IMHO, this can be done, but only if you have a PoD at least in the Great Depression. And you need some revival of "Manifest Destiny" to justify aggression against the UK (Germany and US's interests only overlap if the American government wants to take Canada). It pretty much also needs the Brits to slight the US in a BIG way...

 

[b12ox]

Philip Roth's 2004 book, "The Plot Against America" covers the angle of a Lindbergh presidency in 1940. It looks at the difficulties of an American Jewish family who become fearful as anti-semitism rises.

Don't forget that the Jews were building the Atomic bomb.

 

[Alternate History Geek]

Don't forget that the Jews were building the Atomic bomb.

So? That didn't stop Germany.

 

[The Red]

Change the name of the alliance between the British Empire and the Soviet Union to 'The Axis'.

 

[Richter von Manthofen]

How could the USA have joined the Axis in WWII? What would have happened afterwards?

Soundl like TL-191

 

[Alternate History Geek]

How about this?

Axis
Germany
Italy
United States of America
Republic of China
Hungary
Slovakia
Romania
Bulgaria
Finland
Siam
Iraq
Argentina
Spain

Allies
United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
France
Denmark
Norway
Sweden
Poland
Holland
Belgium
Luxembourg
Estonia
Latvia
Lithuania
Yugoslavia
Greece
Portugal
Turkey
Canada
Brazil
Uruguay
Chile
Paraguay
Bolivia
Persia
Saudi Arabia
Egypt
Union of South Africa

Soviet Bloc
Union of Soviet Socialist Republics
People's Republic of China
Mongolia
Tuvan People's Republic

Greater East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere
Empire of Japan
Manchukuo
Mengjiang
Reformed National Government of the Republic of China