Turtledove's Worldwar/Colonisation: Relevant British Empire after invasion of Tosev 3

[Ilúphatar]

As a Briton myself, I felt rather depressed after I learned of the decline of the United Kingdom and its transition towards a German satellite after the Race Invasion of Tosev 3, in Turtledove's 'Worldwar' and 'Colonisation' series.

Within the scenario of this extraterrestrial invasion mid-WWII: how can Britain maintain more of its Empire post-war; which parts of the Empire would likely remain; how can it retain a status at least equal to that of the Empire of Japan; how can it maintain a foreign and domestic policy distinct from that of other powers; and how would a surviving British Empire interact with the Race and the other surviving human 'not-empires'?

Bonus points if there is a realistic way of the UK becoming a space-faring power.

 

[J.J.Jameson88]

The only way is if they hold onto their influence over Canada and the few Caribbean Islands they had left. That's about it.

 

[Ilúphatar]

The only way is if they hold onto their influence over Canada and the few Caribbean Islands they had left. That's about it.

Any ideas on how British influence can remain greater than American influence in Canada?

 

[Pkmatrix]

Yeah, unfortunately I think the UK is dealt a bad hand in Worldwar no matter how you slice the setting. Canada had already been granted its full sovereignty in the 1930s, so of the Empire that would remain following the invasion and Race's occupation (if we hold the books' "the Race didn't bother with islands" statement literally) the UK is pretty much just left with:

- Great Britain and Northern Island;
- Dominion of Newfoundland (which during this time period was not yet part of Canada and was being directly ruled by London-appointed civil servants);
- The Caribbean Islands (Bahamas, Bermuda, Jamaica, etc.);
- Falkland Islands;
- Ceylon;
- Tasmania;
- New Zealand;
- British Pacific Territories (Tonga, Fiji, etc.);

And...uh...part of Antarctica, I think.

 

[Ilúphatar]

Yeah, unfortunately I think the UK is dealt a bad hand in Worldwar no matter how you slice the setting. Canada had already been granted its full sovereignty in the 1930s, so of the Empire that would remain following the invasion and Race's occupation (if we hold the books' "the Race didn't bother with islands" statement literally) the UK is pretty much just left with:

- Great Britain and Northern Island;
- Dominion of Newfoundland (which during this time period was not yet part of Canada and was being directly ruled by London-appointed civil servants);
- The Caribbean Islands (Bahamas, Bermuda, Jamaica, etc.);
- Falkland Islands;
- Ceylon;
- Tasmania;
- New Zealand;
- British Pacific Territories (Tonga, Fiji, etc.);

And...uh...part of Antarctica, I think.

The Colonisation map seems to show Newfoundland as part of Canada, so perhaps the cession of that territory still happened.

Does Britain keep Ceylon? I seem to recall it being Race-held. I also though Tasmania had fallen.

How much of the rest do you think Britain can hold on to? Also, do they retain Malta and Cyprus?

 

[Pkmatrix]

The Colonisation map seems to show Newfoundland as part of Canada, so perhaps the cession of that territory still happened.

Does Britain keep Ceylon? I seem to recall it being Race-held. I also though Tasmania had fallen.

How much of the rest do you think Britain can hold on to? Also, do they retain Malta and Cyprus?

It's been a pretty long time since I read the Colonization books, but one of the BIG takeaways from reading it: do NOT trust the map printed with the book, it's HIGHLY inaccurate. The map, for instance, shows Italy has having been fully absorbed into the Greater German Reich while the actual text clearly states that Italy is an independent Nazi puppet-state like Romania, Bulgaria, Switzerland, etc. If the book doesn't actually say the Race occupied an island then, IMO, the statement "the Race ignored all islands and didn't bother invading them" holds true across the board no matter what the clearly inaccurate map says.

 

[Ilúphatar]

It's been a pretty long time since I read the Colonization books, but one of the BIG takeaways from reading it: do NOT trust the map printed with the book, it's HIGHLY inaccurate. The map, for instance, shows Italy has having been fully absorbed into the Greater German Reich while the actual text clearly states that Italy is an independent Nazi puppet-state like Romania, Bulgaria, Switzerland, etc. If the book doesn't actually say the Race occupied an island then, IMO, the statement "the Race ignored all islands and didn't bother invading them" holds true across the board no matter what the clearly inaccurate map says.

Ah, I see. I always wondered about Italy - since the Italian government basically switched sides, it seems odd that the Race would permit the Germans to annex it outright.

Did Turtledove not draw the map then? Or do we not know?

Well, it's nice to know about those islands. Given the need for greater human cooperation post-war, coupled with the more Germanophile leanings of the government, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the UK kept all the islands it held as colonies in our timeline. Rule Britannia?

As far as I know, Japan kept every island it captured in OTL, as well as occupying all of New Guinea after the Australian army withdrew to defend their mainland. I was confused, however, that the Japs held onto Indochina: firstly, as a mainland holding, it was directly vulnerable to Race bases in China and other parts of SE Asia; and secondly, that they did not exchange it for Korea, which they might like in order to improve the security of the Home Islands.

 

[Pkmatrix]

Ah, I see. I always wondered about Italy - since the Italian government basically switched sides, it seems odd that the Race would permit the Germans to annex it outright.

Did Turtledove not draw the map then? Or do we not know?

I don't think anyone knows. It wouldn't surprised me if Turtledove had zero input on the map - it's not uncommon for traditional publishers to do stuff like that. Authors often don't have a say in the cover's design or art at all, for instance.

Well, it's nice to know about those islands. Given the need for greater human cooperation post-war, coupled with the more Germanophile leanings of the government, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the UK kept all the islands it held as colonies in our timeline. Rule Britannia?

Agreed! It's something at least.

As far as I know, Japan kept every island it captured in OTL, as well as occupying all of New Guinea after the Australian army withdrew to defend their mainland. I was confused, however, that the Japs held onto Indochina: firstly, as a mainland holding, it was directly vulnerable to Race bases in China and other parts of SE Asia; and secondly, that they did not exchange it for Korea, which they might like in order to improve the security of the Home Islands.

If I recall, that's another point where the map contradicts the text - unless I'm misremembering, the text specifically mentions Indochina being held by the Race and Japan having lost all its mainland holdings. Man, I wish I was at home so I could check...

 

[Ilúphatar]

I don't think anyone knows. It wouldn't surprised me if Turtledove had zero input on the map - it's not uncommon for traditional publishers to do stuff like that. Authors often don't have a say in the cover's design or art at all, for instance.

That would certainly explain the discrepancies. As the only evidence cited (to my knowledge) that East Prussia was integrated into Race-held Poland was from that map, is it possible that Germany kept that territory?

Agreed! It's something at least.

Quite

If I recall, that's another point where the map contradicts the text - unless I'm misremembering, the text specifically mentions Indochina being held by the Race and Japan having lost all its mainland holdings. Man, I wish I was at home so I could check...

Alas, I only have the Worldwar books, not Colonisation (and yes, I realise I am using the British spelling). We know that Manchukuo fell, as the siege of Harbin is addressed in some detail. I can't remember reading about Korea, but I'm also missing one of the volumes of Worldwar, so I can't check that either. The Race could probably overcome the mountainous terrain of northern Korea through airlifts - in any case, Korea probably also fell.

Do we know about Gibraltar? Spain and Morocco became Race colonies, but didn't Moishe Russie stop there briefly on his way to British Palestine? Perhaps the UK kept the Rock as well as its islands - if so, British power will still be the greatest in the Mediterranean.

 

[Dominic]

The Worldwar world is a superpower world. The only significant states are those that can directly challenge the Race on Earth in their corner of it. The British Empire is fundamentally hamstrung even if it did retain more territories by how dispersed it is. There is no where on Earth that it would be able to challenge the Race, and even if there was it is likely the more contiguous human states would be able to do the job better. The whole 'drift towards Nazism' thing though was pretty stupid, it's far more likely that the UK and US, along with Canada, would form a single bloc to challenge Race power.

 

[Ilúphatar]

The Worldwar world is a superpower world. The only significant states are those that can directly challenge the Race on Earth in their corner of it. The British Empire is fundamentally hamstrung even if it did retain more territories by how dispersed it is. There is no where on Earth that it would be able to challenge the Race, and even if there was it is likely the more contiguous human states would be able to do the job better. The whole 'drift towards Nazism' thing though was pretty stupid, it's far more likely that the UK and US, along with Canada, would form a single bloc to challenge Race power.

How about India? That was a pretty contiguous possession of the British Empire. I seem to remember reading that it fell after the Race conquered Palestine with the help of Jewish and Arab rebels.

I agree that the 'drift towards Nazism' was a mistake on Turtledove's part - Britain has much more in common with Canada, New Zealand and the US (the other three remaining Anglophone countries) than Germany, not to mention that but a short while ago, German aircraft had bombarded the United Kingdom and killed thousands of Britons.

 

[Dominic]

How about India? That was a pretty contiguous possession of the British Empire. I seem to remember reading that it fell after the Race conquered Palestine with the help of Jewish and Arab rebels.

India surviving the invasion seems unlikely to begin with, given that it is large, fairly flat, and with very little serious war-making industry or 'modern' forces. A perfect target for the Race. Britain's capacity to hold India even OTL was also extremely limited, so a surviving India would be a power in its own right, not a British extension. The British Empire was pretty dead in the long run by 1918 at the latest, Race or no Race.

Turtledove's odd choices aside though, Britain should have had an excellent chance to expand its influence in Europe after the German-Race war in the 60's. Realistically, with American backing once the Germans had been clobbered the only non-communist/alien place to turn to would have been Britain, backed by the Anglosphere. Recently independent France obviously did not want to be a Race puppet, while Germany's hold over Italy, Hungary, Romania, and Bulgaria should have been weakened significantly. Long term the sheer size of Worldwar Germany would return it to relative preeminence in Europe but Britain would have had a good window to form a counterweight bloc with the other middle sized nations in Europe.

 

[Ilúphatar]

India surviving the invasion seems unlikely to begin with, given that it is large, fairly flat, and with very little serious war-making industry or 'modern' forces. A perfect target for the Race. Britain's capacity to hold India even OTL was also extremely limited, so a surviving India would be a power in its own right, not a British extension. The British Empire was pretty dead in the long run by 1918 at the latest, Race or no Race.

Turtledove's odd choices aside though, Britain should have had an excellent chance to expand its influence in Europe after the German-Race war in the 60's. Realistically, with American backing once the Germans had been clobbered the only non-communist/alien place to turn to would have been Britain, backed by the Anglosphere. Recently independent France obviously did not want to be a Race puppet, while Germany's hold over Italy, Hungary, Romania, and Bulgaria should have been weakened significantly. Long term the sheer size of Worldwar Germany would return it to relative preeminence in Europe but Britain would have had a good window to form a counterweight bloc with the other middle sized nations in Europe.

I suppose that is true. But while its industry was limited, was it not garrisoned with 'modern' British troops? And didn't British forces in the Middle East fall back to India after Palestine fell?

The wiki suggests that fascistic politics became unpopular in Great Britain after the German defeat, so perhaps the UK did as you suggest later in Colonisation, or during Homeward Bound? Maybe Greece and Yugoslavia/Serbia in particular, given the traditional role of Britain in the Balkans.

 

[Dominic]

I suppose that is true. But while its industry was limited, was it not garrisoned with 'modern' British troops? And didn't British forces in the Middle East fall back to India after Palestine fell?

The universal human strategy in Worldwar was to keep throwing as much men and material and the Race until Race supplies wore down. As the war went on the human powers became increasingly efficient at this, but the fundamental gap in technology never came close to closing. British forces in India were never particularly modern by the standards of WW2 armies, and even if they were there was no real ability to replace their equipment on the scale needed to wear down the Race.

 

[Ilúphatar]

The universal human strategy in Worldwar was to keep throwing as much men and material and the Race until Race supplies wore down. As the war went on the human powers became increasingly efficient at this, but the fundamental gap in technology never came close to closing. British forces in India were never particularly modern by the standards of WW2 armies, and even if they were there was no real ability to replace their equipment on the scale needed to wear down the Race.

I see. And I suppose the 'throwing' strategy didn't quite work, considering the unrest in India mentioned.

 

[AK47Productions]

We must also take note that Turtledove has The Race control nearly, if not entirely, half the planet by the end of the war in 1944. To be realistic, the Race should have never gotten India (among other places) because a lot of lizard malepower would've been spent pacifying China and Latin America. What I'm trying to say is that the only way the British could remain relevant post-invasion would be to hold onto India postwar and possibly try and hold onto them by making the populace more afraid of Race conquest and annexation than continued British rule.

 

[Ilúphatar]

We must also take note that Turtledove has The Race control nearly, if not entirely, half the planet by the end of the war in 1944. To be realistic, the Race should have never gotten India (among other places) because a lot of lizard malepower would've been spent pacifying China and Latin America. What I'm trying to say is that the only way the British could remain relevant post-invasion would be to hold onto India postwar and possibly try and hold onto them by making the populace more afraid of Race conquest and annexation than continued British rule.

It would be nice to know how strong Race control of its colonies actually is by the time of Colonisation. Do they really administrate each country, or just the main urban areas and transportation infrastructure?

Holding India would be a welcome advantage to the British - could they keep/regain it if the Americans gave them a nuclear weapon to use (since the British were heavily involved in the Manhattan Project IRL)?

As we've already discussed, it's possible that Britain maintained its control of Ceylon, so that's one colony on the Indian subcontinent the British are most likely to keep. Perhaps Madagascar as well, since the British operation to gain control of the island was in full swing on the day of the Race Invasion.

 

[AK47Productions]

It would be nice to know how strong Race control of its colonies actually is by the time of Colonisation. Do they really administrate each country, or just the main urban areas and transportation infrastructure?

South America is mentioned to be pacified by the 60s while the Middle East (primarily Iran) and China are permanently under revolt. Mexico should also be a hot zone for the Lizards due to it being so close to the US.

Holding India would be a welcome advantage to the British - could they keep/regain it if the Americans gave them a nuclear weapon to use (since the British were heavily involved in the Manhattan Project IRL)?

Basing nukes in India would be good deterrent to the Race in China and the Middle East along with the Soviets in Central Asia and the Japanese in Indochina.

Another thing to consider that if the Race could not hold onto India in this scenario then the British could still possibly have Singapore, Malaysia, and the former Dutch East Indies.

 

[Ilúphatar]

South America is mentioned to be pacified by the 60s while the Middle East (primarily Iran) and China are permanently under revolt. Mexico should also be a hot zone for the Lizards due to it being so close to the US.

I know there was a great deal of ginger smuggling in Mexico under Race rule. I wonder why South America was fine with Race occupation, while China was not? Perhaps because the Russians and Japanese actually cared about keeping Race China destabilised?

Basing nukes in India would be good deterrent to the Race in China and the Middle East along with the Soviets in Central Asia and the Japanese in Indochina.

Another thing to consider that if the Race could not hold onto India in this scenario then the British could still possibly have Singapore, Malaysia, and the former Dutch East Indies.

I meant more: could a British nuke give Britain the bargaining power it needs to secure India? But it certainly would be a useful base for nukes both during and after the Race invasion.

For those other territories: only if the Race pressured Japan to accept those colonies' return to Britain and whatever remnant of the Dutch government-in-exile there is. Maybe Britain could independently pressure Japan if it had enough nukes?

 

[threadnecromancer]

I think Turtledove missed an opportunity when he didn't have Britain ally with the Race.

They are a proper Empire after all, the Race should see them as one of the best of the great powers (Japan could be better, but Japan also mistreats Race prisoners fairly abominably).

It would require some work to set up, perhaps the Americans get pretty keen on decolonization of Britain's remaining territories, or start a trade dispute with Canada, or sell out too much for a German alliance, I don't know.

I just think it would have been an interesting move, and not totally implausible though it would have required some serious thought to figure out what sort of British government would make such an alliance, and how to get them.