Transylvanian Teutons

[Elfwine]

I don't quite understand what you're saying ...

If you don't have Charles of Anjou take Sicily, you have a big impact on the ability of the Byzantine Empire to survive because it isn't forced to deal with that as a major threat.

Theodore II might be preferable as Emperor to Michael VIII - assuming Theodore is able to rule instead of almost crippled by epilepsy as in OTL.

There are other things that could play a role here, too. Those are just the easiest examples.

I'm worried about how different Europe will be without the Ottoman Empire ...

Different politically? Culturally?

I'm not sure the absence of the Ottomans changes Europe so completely as to be an alien world. Some impact certainly, but England is not going to change much. France might somewhat. Spain and Austria much more so, but then, with a POD this early, the rise of the Habsburgs may never happen, which is going to be a big change with or without the Ottomans.

 

[Valdemar II]

I think Konrad invited them in Prussia, after they were expelled from Transylvania, in OTL. I'm not sure if the Teutons holding both Prussia and Transylvania\Romania would work. Von Salza might accept Konrad's offer, but eventually, the Teutons crusading in Prussia will develop into a different semi-independent branch. I would see Poland more successful in Prussia, while Courland, Estonia and Livonia under this new branch of the Order. Speaking of which, when was the Livonian Order founded ? Before, or after my POD ?

Edit : Before my POD. The Bishop of Riga founded the Livonian Brothers of the Sword in 1202, and they merged with the Teutonic Order, only in 1236 (after my POD).

It seem that the Teutonics was invited to Prussia in 1222 just before the POD. A interesting aspect is the German settlers. In Transsylvania they seem to have mostly from the upper Rhineland (Franks and Swabians), while in Prussia and Livonia they were mostly from Lower Saxony (Saxons) with some Poles and Scandinavians mixed in. Which mean that even if the Teutonic get both areas, it won't affect their settlement pattern.

 

[Valdemar II]

Different politically? Culturally?

I'm not sure the absence of the Ottomans changes Europe so completely as to be an alien world. Some impact certainly, but England is not going to change much. France might somewhat.

It would have large effects, the Ottoman threat shaped Germany, had major effect on Habsburg-Bourbon rivalry and the Habsburg's reaction on Protestantism.

 

[Elfwine]

It would have large effects, the Ottoman threat shaped Germany, had major effect on Habsburg-Bourbon rivalry and the Habsburg's reaction on Protestantism.

With a POD this far back, the events shaping all of those thing are going to be different, potentially significantly, even if the House of Osman does what it does OTL up to the borders of Dacia.

And that's more about the Ottomans as a power than the Ottomans as distinct from something else, and I'm not trying to nitpick here.

Any sufficiently powerful and aggressive state in the same position would make a large impact.

 

[Paraipan]

If you don't have Charles of Anjou take Sicily, you have a big impact on the ability of the Byzantine Empire to survive because it isn't forced to deal with that as a major threat.

Theodore II might be preferable as Emperor to Michael VIII - assuming Theodore is able to rule instead of almost crippled by epilepsy as in OTL.

There are other things that could play a role here, too. Those are just the easiest examples.

Oh, ok, I got it now.

Different politically? Culturally?

I'm not sure the absence of the Ottomans changes Europe so completely as to be an alien world. Some impact certainly, but England is not going to change much. France might somewhat. Spain and Austria much more so, but then, with a POD this early, the rise of the Habsburgs may never happen, which is going to be a big change with or without the Ottomans.

Not having an antagonistic Empire at your doorstep for 500 years, changes a lot of things.

It seem that the Teutonics was invited to Prussia in 1222 just before the POD. A interesting aspect is the German settlers. In Transsylvania they seem to have mostly from the upper Rhineland (Franks and Swabians), while in Prussia and Livonia they were mostly from Lower Saxony (Saxons) with some Poles and Scandinavians mixed in. Which mean that even if the Teutonic get both areas, it won't affect their settlement pattern.

Yes, but they left for Prussia only in 1226. And with the German settlers, interesting, indeed. It makes you wonder why the Transylvanian ones became known as "Saxons"

 

[Elfwine]

Oh, ok, I got it now.

Good. I hate it when I'm unclear.

Not having an antagonistic Empire at your doorstep for 500 years, changes a lot of things.

By the point the Ottomans are at Europe's doorstep, you've had two hundred plus years of changes from the POD anyway.

16th century Europe in TTL is likely to be a foreign land to us.

Not saying the Ottomans are irrelevant - they did make an impact OTL - but I don't know if keeping them makes things similar in any sense that is easier on the writer.

 

[Valdemar II]

Yes, but they left for Prussia only in 1226. And with the German settlers, interesting, indeed. It makes you wonder why the Transylvanian ones became known as "Saxons"

Because the first German settler in "Hungary" who settled in the middle of Slovakia was Saxon miners, as such the following groups of German settlers, just got called the same as the firsts.

 

[Paraipan]

Thanks for all the help, guys. I've decided to postpone the "Struggle for the Saxon Seats" update, and make one about the Baltic and Greece/Anatolia/Bulgaria.

 

[Berserker]

Thanks for all the help, guys. I've decided to postpone the "Struggle for the Saxon Seats" update, and make one about the Baltic and Greece/Anatolia/Bulgaria.

I'll be looking forward to it.

and for the Cuman respons on the "Cuman though we decided fighting vlachs is more fun crusade"

 

[Paraipan]

I'll be looking forward to it.

and for the Cuman respons on the "Cuman though we decided fighting vlachs is more fun crusade"

Yeah, but it's not like it's the first time a crusade confused it's target ... the Vlachs were in their way. Although the Tetuons will fight the Cumans, when they reach the Wallachain Plain. For now they only conquered the southern side of the Carpathians and a part of the Subcarpathian Hills.

 

[Berserker]

Yeah, but it's not like it's the first time a crusade confused it's target ... the Vlachs were in their way. Although the Tetuons will fight the Cumans, when they reach the Wallachain Plain. For now they only conquered the southern side of the Carpathians and a part of the Subcarpathian Hills.

all true

 

[Paraipan]

Sorry, but I couldn't write anything today. Hope I'll have more time tomorrow.

 

[Berserker]

Sorry, but I couldn't write anything today. Hope I'll have more time tomorrow.

doenst matter: I am to sick to read annyway
(still going to teach those children tomorrow though)

 

[Cuāuhtemōc]

Sorry, but I couldn't write anything today. Hope I'll have more time tomorrow.

You don't need to apologize. Take as much time as you desire. No one is rushing you here.

 

[Paraipan]

doenst matter: I am to sick to read annyway
(still going to teach those children tomorrow though)

Nothing worse than going to work sick, eh ?

You don't need to apologize. Take as much time as you desire. No one is rushing you here.

Yes, I know, but I said in an earlier post I will write the update tomorrow, and I didn't. Speaking of which, I didn't write anything today, either. It's too damn hot, I can't think of anything.

 

[Paraipan]

I support having Nicaea do better than OTL, on the Ottoman issue.

Doesn't have to be by very much - but a relatively easy set of changes (butterflies) can make it so that a Muslim Turkish power invading Europe never comes up.

Of course, that might be going further than you want, but it is an effective solution.

With or without more Cumans and Vlach going there.

How would the Nicaeans do better than OTL ? Reconquering Constantinople as OTL, or failing to do it and concentrating on Anatolia ?

I've decided to go with stronger Nicaeans, by the way. Anyone against it ?

 

[Sovereign12]

Very interesting so far.

It brought to mind the first Flag Challenge back in '07. You might find some of the contestant's ideas interesting and help give you further ideas for your TL.
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=59848&highlight=teutons

 

[Berserker]

Nothing worse than going to work sick, eh ?

Indeed it is . But the children are great, so it doenst bother me that much.

 

[Paraipan]

Very interesting so far.

It brought to mind the first Flag Challenge back in '07. You might find some of the contestant's ideas interesting and help give you further ideas for your TL.
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=59848&highlight=teutons

Thanks ! I'll check out the thread right now.

Indeed it is . But the children are great, so it doenst bother me that much.

Good for you ! What are you teaching ?

Edit : Great flags there ... but who won ? SleepohalicAgent changed his user name, because no entry is made under this name.

 

[Berserker]

Good for you ! What are you teaching ?

Edit : Great flags there ... but who won ? SleepohalicAgent changed his user name, because no entry is made under this name.

I think the american therm is Primary education. I am teaching 7 year olds
(as an intern though: I am still learning)


One question regarding the topic: Are the Vlachs going to have anny cultural effects on the germans, and the Teutons? will they eventualy fight within their ranks?