TL-191: Filling the Gaps

The Bellamy Salute was actually invented by Francis Bellamy, Edward's cousin. Speaking of which, did the Freedom Party ever adopt the Roman salute? Since Mussolini failed to take power IITL probably not. Did the books ever mention anything about that? I've only read How Few Remain so far, though I'm planning on reading the rest of the books very soon.

We know there was a Freedom salute - Mrs. Jerry Dover did it in front of her husband. We're just not told what it was, though.

Okay I'm sorry to ask this and interrupt this thread but for a timeline I'm working on I need to know the Secretary of State for the U.S. during the Second Great War in Timeline-191 and I don't know if a name was ever given or dropped. So does anyone know if there was a named Secretary of State and if not could one of you suggest a name?

Again sorry to interrupt this thread.

How is it "interrupting"? Isn't the entire purpose of this thread to ask about the minor unimportant details of this world?

To answer your question- it wasn't Henry Wallace or Harry Hopkins, and it definitely wasn't Cordell Hull or James Byrnes. That should narrow the list of guesses somewhat.
 
To answer your question- it wasn't Henry Wallace or Harry Hopkins, and it definitely wasn't Cordell Hull or James Byrnes. That should narrow the list of guesses somewhat.

Would Henry L. Stimson be a good choice for Timeline-191's Secretary of State during GWII?
 
Would Henry L. Stimson be a good choice for Timeline-191's Secretary of State during GWII?

I could go either way. Stimson was a proponent of being ready and standing up to aggressors - Al Smith could either nominate him in a show of bipartisanship, or keep him as far away from government as he could. You know, "my administration has already suffered enough embarrassment from this man Featherston, I don't need a 'told you so' Democrat to rub it in my face."
 
How is it "interrupting"? Isn't the entire purpose of this thread to ask about the minor unimportant details of this world?

To answer your question- it wasn't Henry Wallace or Harry Hopkins, and it definitely wasn't Cordell Hull or James Byrnes. That should narrow the list of guesses somewhat.
I don't post here that often and it was for help in a tl I'm working on, so just being a little polite.
Would Henry L. Stimson be a good choice for Timeline-191's Secretary of State during GWII?
Stimson would actually make a lot sense. I think I'll be using him. Thank you very much.
 
Francis Bellamy, well i feel dumb.

Stimson would be good as a Bi-Partisan candidate, Smith could have picked him in the wake of Featherston remilitarizing Kentucky in 1940. Showing that he no longer trusted Featherston and wanted a more aggressive foreign policy.
 
Stimson would be good as a Bi-Partisan candidate, Smith could have picked him in the wake of Featherston remilitarizing Kentucky in 1940. Showing that he no longer trusted Featherston and wanted a more aggressive foreign policy.

Sounds good to me. I actually want to make a list of Timeline-191 US Secretaries of State, though I need some help. So far, both from the original canon and this thread, this is what I have.

William Seward (Republican) (1861-1864)
Charles Sumner (Republican) (1864-1865)

?
Walter Q. Gresham (Democratic) (1893-1895?)
?
Richard Olney (Democratic) (1897-1905?)
?
Robert Lansing (Democratic) (1913-1921)

Eugene V. Debs (Socialist) (1921-1925)
John Dewey (Socialist) (1925-1929)

?
 
Much of this info comes from the part of President Mahan's article on Henry Cabot Lodge that deals with the year 1896, as well as Perhapsburg's article on William Jennings Bryan, although again, allot of it I reworded and got rid of some other parts that weren't 100% relevant to the election itself, though some few parts I left mostly the same. Theres a lot of new parts I myself wrote as well. Anyways, enjoy!

United States presidential election, 1896

As the year 1896 came the American public's attention was once again turned towards the upcoming Presidential election. During his second term, President Reed had proved himself and more to the American people. Militarization and military reform under Chief of Staff Upton continued in full swing, and the USA had her first moment of glory since before the War of Secession. This moment of glory was none other than the Haitian Crisis of 1895, when US military and naval might, military and naval might that couldn't have been possible without Reed and his policies, prevented a Confederate annexation of Haiti. President Reed and the rest of the Remembrance Democrats were riding high on the victory, with the public aware that Remembrance Democrats Senator Henry Cabot Lodge and Secretary of the Navy Alfred Thayer Mann had a hand in the aforementioned victory. The nation's economy was also showing improvement, with more factories hiring once again.

With the Democratic National Convention coming up in July, the Bourbon Democrats believed that it was finally their chance to elect one of their candidates to the Presidency and they turned to their perennial champion, Grover Cleveland. Now a private citizen, he had been criss-crossing the country lecturing on the economic mismanagement of the Reed administration. The Remembrance faction on the other hand had no clear candidate. There were whispers that George Armstrong Custer, now serving on the General Staff, wanted the nomination, as did Speaker of the House William McKinley, former Governor of Maine Joshua Chamberlain and Senator Elihu Root. There were even rumors that Reed wanted to run again. However, the Democratic Party bosses chafed after eight years of one man's rule and as a result desired a new candidate. Also, the precedent George Washington set of a President seeking only two terms of office, though not official, held strong, and most agreed that Reed would follow this tradition. In the months leading up to the convention many were drifting to the popular Pennsylvania Governor Robert E. Pattison. Though primarily a reform candidate, his time as Secretary of the Interior from 1889-1893 had made him popular with Remembrance Democrats.

President Reed was not clear on whom he supported, though Reed was generally amenable to the reform-minded Robert E. Pattison. Others however, including Senator Henry Cabot Lodge, strongly believed that Secretary of the Navy Alfred Thayer Mahan was a the best viable alternative if the convention became deadlocked. President Reed however was growing concerned over both Mahan and Lodge's bellicosity and imperialist dreams. In the end, Reed refused to give his consent to any candidate, possibly hoping the convention would throw it to him instead. Senator Lodge then conspired with Theodore Roosevelt, now a State Senator of New York, to have Mahan nominated. The two spent the spring and summer garnering support for a Mahan presidency. While the first modern Olympics were being celebrated in Athens, Greece, the Democrats were holding their national convention in Boston [1] from June 7th-June 11th, 1896. When Cleveland and Pattison deadlocked at the convention Lodge's legwork paid off. The Party bosses were controlling this convention and wanted a candidate that would not meddle in domestic affairs. Fortunately for Mahan both Cleveland and Pattison campaigned on civil service reform. Lodge convinced the party bosses that Mahan had no domestic agenda and would leave domestic politics to Congress. After 20 ballots without selecting a candidate, the more and more delegates began to slip to Mahan. When Lodge convinced Pennsylvania party boss Matthew Quay that Mahan would accept Pattison as his Vice President and running-mate the state party bosses switched en mass to Alfred Thayer Mahan. With that, Alfred Thayer Mann and Robert E. Pattison were nominated to the Democratic ticket, as Presidential and Vice-Presidential candidates respectively. In the months leading up to the election, Mahan ran on a platform of continuing President Reed’s policies of militarization and armed forces reform and beginning a new program of large-scale naval reform.

The Republican National Convention was held in Chicago a month after the Democratic National Convention, form July 6th-July 9th, 1896. By this point, the Republican Party's power was firmly in the Midwestern part of the country and was mostly concerned with issues pertaining to the nation's farmers, as well as, for the most part, populism, civil service reform and bimetallism. Most of the Republican nominees at the 1896 convention supported the nation's farmers and their concerns, even the few remaining Eastern Republicans, wanting to get in the good graces of the now more powerful Midwestern party bosses. Unbeknownst to all, the Republican National Convention would soon be the scene of one of the most memorable moments in American political history. William Jennings Bryan, the Michigan Representative who became famous for storming out of the Democratic National Convention with twenty other western senators, leaving the Democratic Party and joining the Republican Party, appeared on the first day of the Republican National Convention. On that same day, Bryan, having been given a key speaking spot on that first day of the convention, gave his famous "Crucifixion speech. [2]"

“Some of you may be wondering why I have left the Democratic Convention and come here. I come to speak to you in defense of a cause as holy as the cause of liberty—the cause of humanity. It is for the common people that we speak. We do not come as aggressors. Our war is not a war of conquest; we are fighting in the defense of our homes, our families, and posterity. We have petitioned, and our petitions have been scorned; we have entreated, and our entreaties have been disregarded; we have begged, and they have mocked when our calamity came. We beg no longer; we entreat no more; we petition no more. We defy them! [3] I am not speaking of the war we have fought against our brethren in the Confederacy. Because there is no such war! This battle is not fought on the lines of Pennsylvanians versus Virginians, but both of those against the businessmen, the generals, and the merchants of death who want such a war. We will answer the demands of these plutocrats by saying to them ‘You shall not make us live in fear of the guns of the south, you shall not crucify us on Remembrance Day! [4]’”

After his speech was finished, Bryan stepped down from the podium to thunderous applause from the audience. Though Bryan was still regarded as a dark horse, the front-runner for the Republican nomination, former Secretary of War Benjamin Harrison of Indiana, inspired little enthusiasm from the Republican delegates. In addition, Harrison's legacy as Secretary of War during the Blaine Administration and Second Mexican War still haunted his Presidential prospects, even fifteen years after the fact. The Republican's second most-major candidate and Bryan's only real opponent Senator John Sherman was slipping into senility and therefore not a viable candidate. As a result, the Republican delegates decided to take a gamble on the unknown and extraordinarily young, Bryan being only 36 years-old, factor of William Jennings Bryan. As a result, Bryan was nominated to be the declining Republican Party's candidate for the Presidency. New York politician, newspaper editor and former ambassador the France Whitelaw Reid was chosen as Bryan's running-mate to balance the ticket between a young newcomer and an older, more seasoned politician (Reid was almost 59 years old) and to give the ticket appeal to the, albeit decreasing, Eastern Republican voters. Bryan ran on a populist platform of farm subsidies, bimetallism and low tariffs, a platform that played well primarily with the American farmers, but with barely anyone else. Nevertheless, Bryan personally campaigned across the country, campaigning more than any other candidate since Stephen Douglas.

Meanwhile, the Socialist National Convention was held in St. Louis, Missouri from July 7th-July 10th, 1896. Once again, the party delegates set out to look for the perfect candidate. On the first day of the convention, Edward Bellamy, the last election's Socialist candidate, dropped out of the ballot due to his increasing disinterest in running for the Presidency. This left the following candidates; Representative and 1888 Socialist presidential candidate James B. Weaver of Iowa, leader of the Knights of Labor Terrence V. Powederly of Pennsylvania, politician Charles H. Matchett of New York and politician James H. Kyle of Dakota. Over the years, James B. Weaver had gradually fallen out of favor with most of the rest of the Socialist party due to his populist leanings. As a result, Weaver was quickly voted off the ballot. Matchett and Kyle lacked enough of the influence and support from the rest of the party to become Presidential candidates, and were soon voted off the ballot. As a result, the Socialist delegates elected Terrance V. Powderly to be the party's candidate for the Presidency. Powderly, despite his Catholicism, which alienated a number of other party members, and weakness as leader of the Knights of Labor, had well-valued personal experiences in dealing with labor disputes, and politically was a moderate, and as a result was seen as a fair compromise between the intellectual and more radical members of the Socialist Party. James H. Kyle of Dakota was chosen to be Powderly's running-mate to balance the ticket between an experienced labor leader and an experienced politician, as well as between an easterner and a Midwesterner. Powderly ran on the usual Socialist platform supporting a general redistribution of wealth, producerism, public ownership of railroads, telegraph and telephone systems, a graduated income tax and business regulation. Once again, little to no mention was made of the military, militarization or military reform.

During the many months of campaigning, from June to November, a number of memorable episodes occurred during the campaigns of some of the parties. In regards to the Republican Party, Bryan had begun an effort to remake the party in his own image, talking more about his desires for agrarianism and pacifism than the actual Republican platform. As a result, while he increasingly solidified the Republican base in the Midwestern farm states, Republican fortunes in New England finally sunk so low that they became a permanent third party in that region. In addition, Bryan launched a feud with Socialist candidate Terrence V. Powderly that would set back leftism in the USA for two decades. Bryan attacked Powderly as a Catholic who would enslave the United States to Rome, while Powderly shot back that Bryan was as theocratic as the Mormons. The divide also undercut both of them on economic issues; Bryan retained the farmers, while Powderly had the workers, and neither was able to bridge the gap. Matters weren't helped by the fact that Bryan felt a need to distance himself from the Socialists and as a result called their economic proposals as bad as the Democratic rationing. Ultimately, Bryan managed to erode the edge of legitimacy that the Republicans had had over the Socialists. Meanwhile, Democratic candidate Alfred Thayer Mahan ran a front-porch campaign from the de jure US capital of Washington D.C., a move which more than suited the indifferent campaigner personally.

Alfred Thayer Mahan and his running-mate Robert E. Pattison of the Democratic Party would go on to win the election, much to no-ones surprise, capturing more than a majority of the popular vote despite a front-porch campaign. Mahan would owe everything to the younger generation of speakers that crisscrossed the country on his behalf. This included not just Roosevelt and Lodge, but also Midwestern Remembrance Democrats like Albert J. Beveridge and Speaker of the House William McKinley. Thanks to renewed imperial projects in the Caribbean by the CSA and Great Britain the nation saw the need for a President strong on national defense. Many Americans considered the Morgan-Pauncefote Treaty signed between the two powers as tantamount to a plan to divide Latin America between them. As a result, Alfred Thayer Mann comfortably won the 1896 presidential election. As for the Socialist Party under Powderly and Kyle, they came in second place in terms of electoral votes for the most time in American history. This election was also the first time that the Socialists overtook the Republicans in both the number of electoral and popular votes. The Socialists won Colorado, Nevada and Dakota, just as they had in 1892, but also won for the first time the states of Idaho, Kansas and even the Republican stronghold of Minnesota. As for the Republican Party under Bryan and Ried, the presidential election of 1896 proved to be a catastrophe. The Republicans performed the worst that they had in their entire history, taking only two states, Wisconsin and Indiana, and the least number of electoral and popular votes, being overtaken by the Socialists as a result. The election of 1892, when the Republicans under John Sherman took a good number of western states, would be the last major electoral victory for the Republican Party for almost a century to come. While many hoped Bryan could bounce off the Republican's unexpected success in 1892, leading to a resurgence of the party, it was simply not to be. As a result of Bryan's attempt to reinvent the party, he cost his ticket a good number of votes and further destroyed the party's credibility through his feud with Terrence V. Powderly. Thus, the Republican Party continued its decline.

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Alfred Thayer Mahan (D-NY)/Robert E. Pattison (D-PA): 267 EV
Terence V. Powderly (S-PA)/James H. Kyle (S-DA): 34 EV
William Jennings Bryan (R-MI)/Whitelaw Reid (R-NY): 27 EV


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[1] President Mahan has the Democratic National Convention in Indianapolis while Perhapsburg has it in Boston. I myself choose Boston as most of the Remembrance Democrats came from the eastern states as opposed to the midwestern states.

[2] Timeline-191's analog to Bryan's OTL "Cross of Gold speech".

[3] Everything up to here is mostly from the OTL Cross of Gold speech.

[4] All of this speech, besides the parts from the OTL speech, were written by Perhapsburg, so credit goes to him for the speech. I decided to include in this article as it is relevant to and a well-known part of the 1896 election IITL.

[5] Map base courtesy of Turquoise Blue.
 
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1896:
Whoops i missed Perhapsburg saying the Dem convention was in Boston.

You have a possible Socialist candidates as being Senator Charles H. Matchett of New York and Senator James H. Kyle of Dakota. The only problem is that Debs is the first socialist senator, the Great War books say so. Craigo had him get elected in 1904, and bguy moved it to 1906 in his aldrich posts. These guys could be Progressive republicans, but they couldn't be socialist senators yet.

Secretaries of state:
Hannibal Hamlin was secretary of state under Blaine at least during HFR.
I had John W. Foster Secretary of State for the first Reed administration 1888-1892.
Next Post i have Henry Cabot Lodge as secretary of state during Mahan's second administration 1901-1905.

Possible Aldrich Secretaries of State include:
How about Willaim Mckinley, he would be only 61 in 1904. He is from a big western state and wasn't an exceptionally warlike President. He also would probably been at the Battle of Camp Hill, since in OTL he fought at Antietam. He would be one of the few major politicians around to actually have fought in the War of Secession. He could be a nice balance to Aldrich, yet still wish to prevent an outbreak of war on his watch.

Robert Bacon in OTL he was assistant Secretary of State, and secretary of state for 38 days during the end of OTL Roosevelt's presidency.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Bacon

How about William Howard Taft, he is briefly mentioned as the Chairman of the House Transportation commitee in the Great War breakthrough. He represents a big state and was a great administrator.

Charles Evan Hughes is a possibility, with Aldrich eventually nominating him fot the Supreme Court.
 
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bguy

Donor
1896:
Possible Aldrich Secretaries of State include:

Craigo had William Rufus Day as Aldrich's Secretary of State. I intended to go with that, but messed up the entry and instead accidentally listed William Rufus King as Aldrich's Secretary of State. I figured that Day held the position for Aldrich's entire term with Aldrich grooming Day to be his eventual successor. (A plan that broke down when Day, disheartened by the breakdown of Rapproachment and exhausted from his war of words with Winston Churchill, declined to run, forcing Aldrich to switch his support to Vice President Fairbanks and then eventually to Senator Lodge.)
 

bguy

Donor
The Socialists won Colorado, Nevada and Dakota, just as they had in 1892, but also won for the first time the states of Idaho, Kansas and even the Republican stronghold of Minnesota.

How could the Socialists win Kansas? Bryan is running on a platform specifically centered on helping farmers, and the Socialist ticket consists of two easterners, one of whom is a Catholic.
 
Based on the above posts, heres a new list of US Secretaries of States, including some from this thread I forgot, like Clement Vallandigham and William Rufus Day. Also, I would have had some of President Mahan's suggestions for Aldrich's Secratary of State serve between 1895 and 1897, though McKinley is already speaker and the rest are too young save for Taft, who at 38 is eligible but may be seen as too young to become Secretary of State in 1895. I also assumed Dewey would keep Stimson after he took office in 1945 and that Stimson would retire in after his first term ended in 1949.

William Seward (Republican) (1861-1864)
Charles Sumner (Republican) (1864-1865)

Clement Vallandigham (Democratic) (1865-1869)
? (Democratic) (1869-1873)
? (Democratic) (1873-1877)
? (Democratic) (1877-1881)

Hannibal Hamlin (Republican) (1881-1885)
? (Democratic) (1885-1886)
? (Democratic) (1886-1889)
John W. Foster (Democratic) (1889-1893)
Walter Q. Gresham (Democratic) (1893-1895) †
Edwin F. Uhl (acting) (Democratic) (1895)
? (Democratic) (1895-1897)
Richard Olney (Democratic) (1897-1905)
William Rufus Day (Democratic) (1905-1913)
Robert Lansing (Democratic) (1913-1921)

Eugene V. Debs (Socialist) (1921-1925)
John Dewey (Socialist) (1925-1929)
? (Socialist) (1929-1933)

? (Democratic) (1933-1937)
? (Socialist) (1937-1941)
Henry L. Stimson (Democratic) (1941-1949)
 
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How about Whitelaw Reid for Secretary of State from 1895-1897. He was Harrison's VP in the OTL 1892 election. In OTL he was ambassador to France 1889-1892. OTL TR late made him ambassador to the court of st. james. He is also Grandfather of the Whitelaw Reid who craigo made TR's running mate in 1920.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitelaw_Reid

Also how about that Henry Cabot Lodge for Secretary of State 1901-05? Hmm?;)
 
How could the Socialists win Kansas? Bryan is running on a platform specifically centered on helping farmers, and the Socialist ticket consists of two easterners, one of whom is a Catholic.
Perhaps replace Matchett with a westerner Socialist?

There's Ignatius L. Donnelly, who did organise the Minnesotan Farmers' Alliance. He's a bit kooky in OTL, he could not be so in ATL.
 
How about Whitelaw Reid for Secretary of State from 1895-1897. He was Harrison's VP in the OTL 1892 election. In OTL he was ambassador to France 1889-1892. OTL TR late made him ambassador to the court of st. james. He is also Grandfather of the Whitelaw Reid who craigo made TR's running mate in 1920.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitelaw_Reid

Also how about that Henry Cabot Lodge for Secretary of State 1901-05? Hmm?;)

Whitelaw Reid was Bryan's Republican running-mate during the 1896 election, so that might not work, even if he does defect to the Democrats.

I actually like the idea of having Lodge as Sectary of State.

How could the Socialists win Kansas? Bryan is running on a platform specifically centered on helping farmers, and the Socialist ticket consists of two easterners, one of whom is a Catholic.

Perhaps replace Matchett with a westerner Socialist?

There's Ignatius L. Donnelly, who did organise the Minnesotan Farmers' Alliance. He's a bit kooky in OTL, he could not be so in ATL.

I think it would be easier and make more sense replace Matchett with a westerner Socialist. Mabye James H. Kyle. But then who would be Coxey's running mate in 1900?
 
I just realized, is there any canon for Jack Reed? I could swear I saw one mention of him though it might have been for a different Reed.
 
I just realized, is there any canon for Jack Reed? I could swear I saw one mention of him though it might have been for a different Reed.
He would definitely be a radical (as shown when Ida Tarbell and Lincoln Steffens first introduced him to social issues) but he wouldn't be a communist.

Definitely on the left of the Socialist Party and perhaps Representative from Oregon? He would live longer, perhaps to the 40s or 50s?
 
Criago mentioned that Jack Reed was Secretary of War from 1928-1929 during the Sinclair administration and was again Secretary of War around 1945.
 

bguy

Donor
Based on the above posts, heres a new list of US Secretaries of States,

I would recommend moving Clement Vallandigham to the 1869-1873 slot. Craigo's updated entry on the 1868 presidential election list Vallandigham as one of President Seymour's critics. It would be very unusual for a Secretary of State to openly be criticizing his president. (Also, the Fugitive Slave Treaty that Vallandigham negotiated is listed as an achievement of President Hendricks, which suggests Vallandigham was Hendricks' Secretary of State.)

For the 1865-1869 slot, how about James Bayard? He was extremley pro-southern, so having him as Secretary of State would fit with the Seymour Administration's accomodationist attitude to the CSA. Craigo's revised 1868 presidential election entry also makes reference to a Bayard-Hunter Treaty, so it seems like a Bayard was negotiating on behalf of the United States during the Seymour Administration. (And since Thomas Bayard is also listed as one of President Seymour's harshest critics, that means it was probably his father, James, who negotiated the treaty.)

And on the subject of Thomas Bayard, he could fit in well as Secretary of State either in 1877-1881 or sometime in the 1885-1889 period. (President Hancock might not want a leading doughface as his Secretary of State, but maybe he had to make that concession to the Soft Line Democrats to win the nomination, or maybe Hancock did appoint someone else, but the Soft-Liner Thurman sacked Hancock's chosen Sec. of State and appointed Thomas Bayard when he took office.)

As for the 1937 to 1941 spot, maybe Sumner Welles would work there?
 
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