TL-191: After the End
- Thread starter David bar Elias
- Start date
You bumped this after 6 months to ask that question, just out of the assumption that something better has to exist?
Okay.
http://www.deviantart.com/art/Timeline-191-Postwar-614281520
https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/attachments/world-jun1966-globe-tl191-png.162116/
https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/attachments/tl191atealliances1980-png.178203/
^So far as I can tell, with the exception of those Electoral Maps you might find by browsing this forum, these are the best AFTER THE END maps - although I would suggest browsing this thread to see if you can track down anything better; just use the SEARCH function at the Top Right of this page and enter something like "AFTER THE END map".^
https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/attachments/world-jun1966-globe-tl191-png.162116/
https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/attachments/tl191atealliances1980-png.178203/
^So far as I can tell, with the exception of those Electoral Maps you might find by browsing this forum, these are the best AFTER THE END maps - although I would suggest browsing this thread to see if you can track down anything better; just use the SEARCH function at the Top Right of this page and enter something like "AFTER THE END map".^
Hey David Bar
I was wondering, with the whole Brexit and Scottish referendum issues now well within our knowledge, if there were any plans to update this alt history with the UK disintegrating. Seeing as how the world following the 2008 recession has revealed just how divided the UK really is, I can only imagine how after losing two world wars and suffering through severe economic depression at the conclusion at the hands of the Germans, I imagine that the cleavaging of the UK would only accelerate in this timeline, with the Scots wanting to secede to form their own state either through referendum, which would have been unlikely at this time, or more possibly open rebellion following in the example of the Irish.
It's important to remember that Scottish nationalism was actually just as strong as Irish nationalism at the beginning of the early-20th century, with many Irish nationalists, like Patrick Pearse and Sean MacDonald, actually visiting Soctland several times to speak to gaelic groups and nationalist parties, most of them socialist as well! Whereas in our timeline, though, where Scottish nationalism never got the same outlet that its Irish counterpart did to grow into a widescale movement, in TTL, with the full success of the Irish Rebellion, the loss in the wars, and the severe economic hardship, it is logical to deduce that there would be more social tension and dysfunction among especially the Scots and the Welsh in the UK. We could even assume that the fascists rose to prominence under the promise to crush the "communist Scottish nationalists "who were "in league with the treacherous Irish" to destroy the UK from within!!! If this were the case, which it would most likely be, the desire to secede would be even more potent upon defeat in the Second Great War and in the economic recession that followed, especially with jailed Scottish nationalists getting their releases.
Food for thought. Might even write the idea myself.
I was wondering, with the whole Brexit and Scottish referendum issues now well within our knowledge, if there were any plans to update this alt history with the UK disintegrating. Seeing as how the world following the 2008 recession has revealed just how divided the UK really is, I can only imagine how after losing two world wars and suffering through severe economic depression at the conclusion at the hands of the Germans, I imagine that the cleavaging of the UK would only accelerate in this timeline, with the Scots wanting to secede to form their own state either through referendum, which would have been unlikely at this time, or more possibly open rebellion following in the example of the Irish.
It's important to remember that Scottish nationalism was actually just as strong as Irish nationalism at the beginning of the early-20th century, with many Irish nationalists, like Patrick Pearse and Sean MacDonald, actually visiting Soctland several times to speak to gaelic groups and nationalist parties, most of them socialist as well! Whereas in our timeline, though, where Scottish nationalism never got the same outlet that its Irish counterpart did to grow into a widescale movement, in TTL, with the full success of the Irish Rebellion, the loss in the wars, and the severe economic hardship, it is logical to deduce that there would be more social tension and dysfunction among especially the Scots and the Welsh in the UK. We could even assume that the fascists rose to prominence under the promise to crush the "communist Scottish nationalists "who were "in league with the treacherous Irish" to destroy the UK from within!!! If this were the case, which it would most likely be, the desire to secede would be even more potent upon defeat in the Second Great War and in the economic recession that followed, especially with jailed Scottish nationalists getting their releases.
Food for thought. Might even write the idea myself.
I suspect that you overstate the potency of Scottish Nationalism at the dawn of the 20th Century in Our Own Timeline, but I do agree that it seems likely that following no less than Two Great Wars lost after considerable wastage the Nationalist Movements in the Timeline-191 Great Britain are likely to be far stronger than they are even at present.
That being said, it seems a little odd to proclaim the Deep Divides within the United Kingdom given the result of the Great Referendum in 2014; it is definitely fair to say that the less satisfying result in this present year does indicate some serious potential for disagreement, though I hope that these can be smoothed over because Strength in Unity is our best bet going forward even when we are taken out of the EU - quite bluntly I find it impossible to grasp the logic that proclaims that the best possible solution to splitting from one Greater Whole is to subdivide ourselves once more.
"Brexit" is likely to be hard enough even with all the resources a United Kingdom can command - with only the native resources of Soctland to fall back on for the foreseeable future, it is hard to see how the Nationalist vision for Independence offers an appreciable improvement.
That being said, it seems a little odd to proclaim the Deep Divides within the United Kingdom given the result of the Great Referendum in 2014; it is definitely fair to say that the less satisfying result in this present year does indicate some serious potential for disagreement, though I hope that these can be smoothed over because Strength in Unity is our best bet going forward even when we are taken out of the EU - quite bluntly I find it impossible to grasp the logic that proclaims that the best possible solution to splitting from one Greater Whole is to subdivide ourselves once more.
"Brexit" is likely to be hard enough even with all the resources a United Kingdom can command - with only the native resources of Soctland to fall back on for the foreseeable future, it is hard to see how the Nationalist vision for Independence offers an appreciable improvement.
I'm not saying it would produce a better result, all I'm saying is that nationalists would be far more galvanized and perhaps make considerable gains. Irish nationalism was pretty weak in Ireland itself at the early century, but after the Rising and the destruction of the Great War, it flourished. In a universe where Britain faces defeat in the Great War and with a successful model of rebellion done by Ireland, it's not illogical to deduce that Scottish nationalism would flourish more, especially with an American client state next door maybe supporting them through secret funding, either through private donations or even government espionage.
I've never been sure which war has a greater place in the hearts of Americans; the First or Second Great War. I always imagined it'd be the second, just like in OTL.
Last edited:
I presume it would be the Second even more so than OTL, because that was when the CSA was defeated once and for all. However, there may be a greater consciousness of the First than OTL as well.
I feel the same way. I imagine the Great War's place in the hearts of Americans as being equal to that of OTL's World War II, while the Second Great War would be equal to that of OTL's Civil War (as the War of Secession was probably considered an embarrassment for the country).
It would be interesting to see how alternate history would go in TL-191, especially if Harry Turtledove existed ITTL as an author.
It was discussed, actually. I think it started being mentioned in the 70s update.
I remember an alternate history scenario ITTL called Doctort Lexington. It takes place in a world where the Confederacy never launched Blackbeard, and is still lead by the freedom party. You can find a page for it on deviantart.
Sorry it was actually a scenario where the Confederacy won the Second Great War. My bad.