Tiger Tiger burning Bright..

Ramp-Rat

Monthly Donor
Sharlin, excellent time line, and I too must admit a bit of a liking for HMS Lion. Do not want to appear to be being pedantic, but I believe you have made a couple of small basic errors. The first being the use of the term ' flank speed ,' which is l think an American term, and thus inappropriate on a British battle wagon at this time. And there is also the use of a klaxton to call the ship to battle stations. This I think would at this time have been done by a bugle call, played over the ships tannoy. As is seen in the film ' The Battle of the River Plate.'

In addition I do believe you have in the eyes of the RN left out the most important preparation for battle; given the age of the ships captain and the time in which this T /L, is set. He would I am sure have called for the ships battle ensins to be raised. After all got to give the dam frogs something to aim at, old boy!!

Regards Ramp-Rat.
 
Also, why on earth would Quebec rise? Note, for instance, that supporting France in WWI and WWII iOTL got essentially no traction there.

Unless someone goes crazy with conscripting forces in Canada, which I think no PM would be stupid enough to do.
 

sharlin

Banned
Basically a breakdown of what happened is this:

WW1 in this TL didn't happen until 1916 and finished in 1919 and was between the AH Empire, Germany and UK on one side, France, Russia and Italy on the other. The US stayed neutral, more worried about Japan and the fighting that went on in the carribean.

The war ended more due to mutual exhaustion than any collapse and a treaty was signed in Oslo to end the war. The French and their allies who did start the war had to pay pritty severe reparations but not as bad as OTLs Treaty of Versailles.

Something like the Washingon Naval treaty was tried but the English and Germans politely told the US to go away when they proposed the idea and no one else turned up (hence the French having a heavy cruiser with 9.4 inch guns and a light with 6.4 inch rifles too).

In russia the revolution started later and was put down by the Russian army with French help so there's still a Tsar.

The uprising in the Quebec region is more like an insurgency, angry young Quebecois with guns going out and blowing stuff up and shooting at people rather than any co-ordinated rebellion. Yet.
 
Basically a breakdown of what happened is this:

WW1 in this TL didn't happen until 1916 and finished in 1919 and was between the AH Empire, Germany and UK on one side, France, Russia and Italy on the other. The US stayed neutral, more worried about Japan and the fighting that went on in the carribean.

The war ended more due to mutual exhaustion than any collapse and a treaty was signed in Oslo to end the war. The French and their allies who did start the war had to pay pritty severe reparations but not as bad as OTLs Treaty of Versailles.

Something like the Washingon Naval treaty was tried but the English and Germans politely told the US to go away when they proposed the idea and no one else turned up (hence the French having a heavy cruiser with 9.4 inch guns and a light with 6.4 inch rifles too).

In russia the revolution started later and was put down by the Russian army with French help so there's still a Tsar.

The uprising in the Quebec region is more like an insurgency, angry young Quebecois with guns going out and blowing stuff up and shooting at people rather than any co-ordinated rebellion. Yet.

Not having read your first part to this, is Japan allied to anybody or at least friendly towards any countries?
 
Very pro UK.

Hmm.... a couple of us were discussing in Claymore's thread the possibility of having a closer Japan and UK in WWII, as well as a closer Japan and Germany. We were trying to come up with a plausible POD, because the idea of coming up with alternate armoured vehicles using a combination of Japanese, German and British technology is very appealing. :p
 
Well if ye wanna read the original story just look for the Franco-Japanese War :)

Can do. Someone linked to it on this thread's first page, so finding it shouldn't be too hard. :p Perhaps you could hop on over to Claymore's vehicles thread and share your thoughts on the matter? I guarantee you're more knowledgeable on how feasible it might be than I am. :)
 
(snip) Something like the Washingon Naval treaty was tried but the English and Germans politely told the US to go away when they proposed the idea and no one else turned up (hence the French having a heavy cruiser with 9.4 inch guns and a light with 6.4 inch rifles too).

Is that why the US went ahead & built a couple Tillmans TTL, not because of any perceived military requirement (or desire), but rather as a political gesture intended both as an expression of displeasure over the rejection of the proposed naval treaty & as a way of suggesting that even without a treaty, that naval buildups should be kept to a "reasonable" level?
 

Archibald

Banned
minor nitpicking: its Gloire, not glorie (or glory) :)
I have a crush on big battleships, will follow that TL with interest.
 
fantastic, great to see the continuation of the Franco-Japanese war, and good to see Tiger she is without doubt the best looking capital ship of the Dreadnought Era (although i must say her refit is a tad ugly)
i wonder if she will become the Warspite of Sharlin's world?
 

sharlin

Banned
A step back in time.



The British Admiralty - 1926

One wall of the oak panelled office was dominated by a trio of pictures, one of HMS Dreadnought the other of HMS Victory, these flanked a picture of the King, it was under these that the DNC, or Director of Naval Construction and the Third Sea Lord now sat, an antique table sporting two crystal cut glasses, one with brandy the other a fine scotch.

“So Reginald, what brings you to me today?”

“With the passing of the 2nd Naval Budget Amendment to help get the country out of the economic slump were in the chaps and I have some ideas we would like run buy you, new designs for our fleet and ideas for the merchant marine.”
“And these ideas were just waiting for a rainy day I assume?”

“Perhaps Sir, perhaps.”
Both men smiled and the 3rd Sea Lord sat forwards as the DNC opened the binder he had brought with him. Inside were dozens of hand drawn designs on slightly yellowed paper, each one the size of a desk or small table, each one a work of art in its own right.

“Despite the victory in the war it is obvious now that many of our ships are simply worn out or obsolete. The old 12 inch gunned ships simply have to go.”
“Indeed, we was either going to sell them off for scrap or give them to Dominion forces to bolster the Empire.”
“It would be easier to sell them for scrapping but we do have some possible plans for the Invincible class that may seem a touch..radical.”

The 3rd Sea Lord tried to not roll his eyes, the new DNC did have some crackpot ideas. “Do continue.”
“Firstly it is obvious that our cruisers are also facing block obsolescence, they are built for work in the North Sea and Med but we have wider territories to protect. Looking at the cancelled ‘E’ Class Cruisers we altered and enlarged them slightly, keeping the same torpedo armament and speed as well as the newer lighter boilers designed for them. In place of their single mount 6-inch guns, we could easily fit four of the new dual mounts that are to go on the G3, ahem the St George class giving her a eight gun broadside, with a slightly larger ship we can add 500 tonnes of fuel to extend the range and increase the beam for added stability and of course to protect against Torpedoes which the French were so fond of. A few 4.7’s for anti-aircraft duty and some single 12 pounders will constitute the rest of the classes armament, along with machine guns. “

“But what about the boilers? High pressure boilers gave the Germans constant trouble in the war, damn complicated and damn unreliable.”
“Perhaps Sir, but that was ten years ago, if we stick with our current boilers we are just adding weight, they are less efficient, more bulky and produce less HP per tonne compared to the new high pressure boilers. The three drum boilers if we continue to adopt them will become a weight around our necks. The use of a two drum boiler, combined with the purchase and copying of American designed anti-fouling additives for the boilers feed water will mean we don’t have to stick to the notion of out-dated machinery in our most modern vessels.”

The 3rd Sea Lord nodded as the DNC took a breath to gather his thoughts. He knew full well the DNC’s views on new engines, the ‘young’ man’s passion for modernising the Navy ruffled many feathers amongst the more traditional Officers of the Senior Service but one could not argue with results. The magnificent Saint George class battleships due for completion soon were world beaters.
For the next three hours the discussion went on, the DNC describing new classes and alterations to vessels in service.

“Now the sticky matter of Battlecruisers.”
“I was wondering when you would get to that...”

The Invincible's are simply worn out, they worked hard in the war and suffered some heavy damage at French and Italian hands so I propose the following. Scrap the Invincible she’s in the worst condition. The Indefatigable needs to go too, since hitting that mine in 1918 she’s been a lame duck.”

“And the Dominion’s ones? Australia and New Zealand?”

“We replace them in Dominion service with some of the Lion class ships, their nine 13.5’s are still a perfectly capable weapon. With modernisation to their engine plant, conversion to oil fuel, alterations to deck armour and the like they would make a fine ship for overseas service and for a one for one swap it won’t ruffle too many Colonial feathers. But here’s the idea for their Battlecruisers. We gut them, strip out everything down to the engines.”
“You’re going to say ‘aircraft carrier’ are you not?”

“You know me too well Sir.”

The older Admiral’s eyes narrowed slightly.

“Our current conversions of the Benbow, Collingwood and Anson are on schedule, the Admiral class battlecruiser hull’s are adapting well and will give us a first class squadron to join the fleet but three carriers is not enough. We have the Argus for training and the Hermes shows us that we can build a small carrier for fleet and convoy duties but if we approach the Dominions and ask for their aid financially they can help fund a carrier based on their original and much loved battlecruisers.”

“How effective a conversion are we talking?”
“Estimates of thirty six planes and a speed of thirty knots.”
“And the cost?”
“Two million per ship, including gutting them and modernisation.”
“Two million! That’s almost a quarter more expensive than the original ships.”

“Yes Sir but we all know the First Lord is pushing hard for the Dominions to shoulder a broader load for their own defence and regions whilst still being supported by the Mother country, the docks being built at Sidney and Singapore are expensive but are huge boosts to the job market and industry in the area and it would give the Dominion a greater sense of self purpose and identity. These carriers could help form the core of a fleet for their own defence and provide a considerable multiplier for the Home Fleet in time of war.”

“I see the sense in it but the government will baulk at the costs, but I will run it by the First Lord, he’ll no doubt love it.”

“With the failure of the Washington Treaty we did pick up some good ideas from that though, the Americans pressing for a weight limit on cruisers was something that all parties could agree upon and we are working on an eight inch gunned cruiser for Empire patrol needs and it will allow us to retire the Colonial Cruisers designed in Fisher’s time, they are just too big and manpower intensive to continue production as well as expensive.”
That got a nod from the 3rd Lord. “The survivors of the Lion class are still in good condition, with modernisation they would be able to continue to serve until the late 30’s by which time we will have a replacement design ready to replace them. Looking at warship development overseas the Nelson’s, Queen Elizabeth, Revenge and Warspite classes give us enough of a lead over the United States, Germany and of course France, Italy and Russia. The Germans are still focusing on rebuilding towns and cities damaged during the war and the repatriations from France have helped pay for most of that.”
“And where do you foresee trouble arising?”

“We need to replace our light cruisers and urge the development of the proposed cruiser you have before you as well as enlarged destroyers, for both home and Empire service. Our latest battleships are all capable and modern and whilst the Prince Albert class will be in reserve or used for training they can join the fleet at short notice but our weakness is in light ships. When the St George and St Andrew are completed we will have two battleships second to none but I urge that funds then be diverted from battleship construction into our aircraft carriers, cruisers, both heavy and light as well as a new generation of destroyers to protect the fleet. With more modern vessels we can cut back on the size of the fleet whilst maintaining its effectiveness and striking power.”

“And I assume you have worked out the costs for this programme in light of the funds the light of the Amendment?”

A single sheet of paper was slid across the table, on it was everything down to the last shilling.

“How accurate is this?”
“Barring any major financial problems, totally accurate Sir.”

“Outstanding, I will bring this up with the other Sea Lords on Tuesday, then we have the hard part of selling this to the Government.”
“With luck Sir they will see the wisdom of continuing work at the shipyards, it keeps men employed and an employed man is a happy man and more likely to vote for you in the next election.”

“Did I ever tell you that you were a snake Reginald?”
The DNC smiled warmly.
“Twice now.”
“Very well. Carry on.”
“I fully intend to Third Lord.”




A long time coming but my muse finally sprang into life today.
 
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