The Weighted Scales: The World of an Aborted Rome

Depends? I personally like the idea of a native Egyptian dynasty arising. :cool:

a lot of people do, and it seems very possible, but i don't know if they would be able to retake control over the delta and alexandria, or if they did, someone else would swoop in and seize the city.

egypt in general is an extremely wealthy and valuable country.
 
yes, in many ways, the greeks will become the bearers of the torch metaphorically speaking. however, they will not achieve what rome did in conquering all of the mediterranean. our friend carthage stands in the way of that :cool:

ptolemaic egypt from everything i've gathered was pretty much destined to fail without roman intervention. so the question becomes, once the ptolemys are out of the picture, who replaces them on top in egypt?

or maybe the Parthians conquer the entire old persian empire:D:D:D:D
 
yes, in many ways, the greeks will become the bearers of the torch metaphorically speaking. however, they will not achieve what rome did in conquering all of the mediterranean. our friend carthage stands in the way of that :cool:
Oh yes, I didn't mean like "Ptolemaic Egypt will kick everyone's ass", just that Alexandria seems prone to being, yes, a torch - so long as the native Egyptians don't persecute the Greeks living in Egypt as happened in OTL, though that seems to have much to do with Rome becoming the premiere power. I'm not sure what will be the probable future of Ptolemaic Egypt in this TL.

Anyway, some interesting stuff I read today in Lucio Russo's The Forgotten Revolution: How Science Was Born in 300 BC and Why It Had to Be Reborn which might be of interest:

Spherical coordinates were relearned when a copy of Ptolemy's Geography reached the West, in the fifteenth century. The recovery of Hellenistic navigation instruments, including the plan astrolabe, allowed mariners to determine latitude on the open sea through astronomical observations. It was these "rediscoveries" that allowed the long open-sea voyages that had been impossible in the Middle Ages.

[...]

In fact, we know from the literature that Eudoxus of Cyzicus sailed several times between Egypt and India not by skirting the shore but along a direct ocean route from the Gulf of Aden. There is also the very famous exploratory voyage in the North Atlantic made, probably in the late fourth century B.C., by the Massalian Greek Pytheas, which was described in his book The Ocean. From fragments of this book and other information preserved by several authors, we know that Pytheas reached places where the sun stays up all night in summer (such as the island of Thule, six days of sailing north of Britannia) and even the frozen ocean (polar pack ice). [...]

Trips in the Atlantic, towards the West, are mentioned by Diodorus Siculunus, Plutarch and others. Strabo even talks of attempts to circumnavigate the globe.

So I think that there will be more interaction between the East and West, and with it more diffusion of technology, ideas, people and culture. The differences between the continents of the Old World will be less accentuated and more sketchy.

I think that a lot of the world will be mapped much, much earlier. How earlier colonialism in the New World (or even later, somehow?!) will be I am much less certain of.
 
a lot of people do, and it seems very possible, but i don't know if they would be able to retake control over the delta and alexandria, or if they did, someone else would swoop in and seize the city.

egypt in general is an extremely wealthy and valuable country.

Well prior to Alexandria, the Greeks had Naucratis which was an autonomous trading colony that happened to be under the protection of the native Egyptians. If the Ptolemies fall and an native Egyptian state arises, maybe the Greeks in Alexandria and the other Greek cities in the Delta would offer to become semi-autonomous vassals to the Pharoah.
 
However, there could be still a Nubian resurgence and South Egypt could be easily seized by them... In OTL this already happened...
 
Oh yes, I didn't mean like "Ptolemaic Egypt will kick everyone's ass", just that Alexandria seems prone to being, yes, a torch - so long as the native Egyptians don't persecute the Greeks living in Egypt as happened in OTL, though that seems to have much to do with Rome becoming the premiere power. I'm not sure what will be the probable future of Ptolemaic Egypt in this TL.

Anyway, some interesting stuff I read today in Lucio Russo's The Forgotten Revolution: How Science Was Born in 300 BC and Why It Had to Be Reborn which might be of interest:



So I think that there will be more interaction between the East and West, and with it more diffusion of technology, ideas, people and culture. The differences between the continents of the Old World will be less accentuated and more sketchy.

I think that a lot of the world will be mapped much, much earlier. How earlier colonialism in the New World (or even later, somehow?!) will be I am much less certain of.

wow, i didn't know that. that is extremely helpful and gives me some great ideas.

so Iceland was Thule i presume? very interesting. we very well could see the New World being mapped and charted earlier, though colonized less densely and later.

it is interesting, it seems as though the carthaginians and the greeks would have been struggling for another thousand years over maritime trade routes had not the Romans defeated both of them.

And Egypt really is just a wild card. it's fate is very dependent on the goings ons of the world around it. so many people sought to control it, including the persians, the greeks, the carthaginians, the nubians, the libyans, the arabs, and the natives themselves
 
wow, i didn't know that. that is extremely helpful and gives me some great ideas.

so Iceland was Thule i presume? very interesting. we very well could see the New World being mapped and charted earlier, though colonized less densely and later.

it is interesting, it seems as though the carthaginians and the greeks would have been struggling for another thousand years over maritime trade routes had not the Romans defeated both of them.

And Egypt really is just a wild card. it's fate is very dependent on the goings ons of the world around it. so many people sought to control it, including the persians, the greeks, the carthaginians, the nubians, the libyans, the arabs, and the natives themselves

To add on to the earlier east-west contact through thing... I had read some stuff a while back that might be of interest on the possibility of Carthage in the Americas... it was interesting. Though I think I might've linked you some of this already Errnge, so you very well could've read it...


http://phoenicia.org/america.html said:
If Mark McMenamin is correct, neither Columbus nor the Vikings were the first non-natives to set foot on the Americas. McMenamin, the Mount Holyoke geologist who last year led an expedition that discovered the oldest animal fossil found to date, may have made another discovery--one that sheds radical new light on present conceptions of the Classical world and on the discovery of the New World.


Working with computer-enhanced images of gold coins minted in the Punic/Phoenician city in North Africa of Carthage between 350 and 320 BC, (please see sketch of coin right and where the world map is supposed to have been inscribed) McMenamin has interpreted a series of designs appearing on these coins, the meaning of which has long puzzled scholars. McMenamin believes the designs represent a map of the ancient world, including the area surrounding the Mediterranean Sea and the land mass representing the Americas.


If this is true, these coins not only represent the oldest maps found to date, but would also indicate that Carthaginian explorers had sailed to the New World.


In fact, it was his interest in the Carthaginians as explorers that led McMenamin to study the coins. The Carthaginians were closely linked to the Phoenicians of the Middle East in terms of origin, culture, language, and naval enterprise. Both peoples are widely credited with significant sailing exploits through the Mediterranean, to the British Isles, and along the coast of Africa.
phoenicianworldmapdtlslow.jpg



In one of the coins studied by McMenamin, a horse stands atop a number of symbols at the bottom of the coin. For many years, scholars interpreted these symbols as letters in Phoenician script. When that theory was discounted in the 1960s, it left scholars baffled. Working over the past few months, McMenamin was able to interpret the design as a representation of the Mediterranean, surrounded by the land masses of Europe and Africa, with, to the upper left, the British Isles. To the far left of the representation of the Mediterranean is what the geologist believes is a depiction of the Americas.


A number of classical texts bolster this theory. For example, in the first century bc, Diodorus of Sicily wrote "...in the deep off Africa is an island of considerable size...fruitful, much of it mountainous.... Through it flow navigable rivers....The Phoenicians had discovered it by accident after having planted many colonies throughout Africa."

"I was just the lucky person who had the geologic and geographic expertise to view these coins in a new light," McMenamin notes. "I have been interested in the Carthaginians as the greatest explorers in the history of the world."


McMenamin's interest in Carthage led him to master the Phoenician language. He has published two pamphlets on his work regarding the Carthaginian coins. One is written in ancient Phoenician, representing probably the first new work in that language in 1500 years.


He has submitted a paper on his theory to The Numismatist, a leading journal in the study of coins, which has accepted McMenamin's paper on the theory for publication. At the same time, the scholar is trying to gain access to a number of coins --or casts of their impressions-- currently held in European collections. These impressions will further aid him, he hopes, in proving the world map theory's validity. "If I had the time and the money," McMenamin observes, only half-kidding, "I'd be in North Africa with my metal detector trying to find Carthaginian coins to further confirm my hypothesis."


Additional study may well reveal that it was Punic explorers not Europeans who "discovered" the New World. At the very least, McMenamin hopes his theory will focus new scholarly attention on ancient Carthaginian culture.

This one was a solid bit bigger, so I copy/pasted the last bit because I thought that had the most important bits of info. Go to the website to read the whole thing.

phoenicia.org/carthanewworld.html said:
Early Drug Use


Recently tests were run on ancient Egyptian mummies, that came up with astounding results. Evidence of their use of cocaine and nicotine showed up - in spite of the fact these are New World products! While some scholars are saying this must be from some African plants that were similar but now extinct (doubtful, but possible. One plant of particular interest was the "Silphium" plant, which was cultivated in what is now modern Cyrenaica in Libya - the plant was esteemed for many uses including medicinal and food. The plant seems to have gone extinct about the time of the Roman conquest of the area.) Silphium closely resembles the Anise plant (the licorice flavor) so may have been related. According to accepted history, China was not known to the west until the Roman empire yet genuine silk threads have been found on ancient Egyptian mummies too - proving that contact was more far reaching and far older than previously thought.


The more likely scenario is that there was indeed contact between the old world and the new which involved trade. In my opinion the Egyptians were not particularly good seamen, but the Phoenicians were! The trade routes they used were jealously guarded secrets, and their ability to navigate was well known. When the mother land was conquered, first by Babylonians and later by Persians and Greeks, most of the trading colonies became allied with Carthage. Carthaginian traders were quick to duplicate the navigational feats of their forefathers and to fill the void in providing trade goods. Thor Heyerdahl's famous "Ra Expeditions" proved that cross oceanic travel was possible even with the reed boats of Egypt, but navigation without compass would have been difficult.


It can be argued that the Egyptians had some method of using the stars for navigation, as the near perfect alignments of the pyramids could attest. However, it is my opinion that the Sphinx and certain other monuments ascribed to the Egyptians are in fact much older (circa 10000 years.) Egyptians did venture on the seas to the "mythical" land of Punt, a place which can be identified with Sumatra though theories abound as to its location including the Great Lakes of North America. A point to consider here is found in one of the ancient Egyptian inscriptions describing the expedition of Queen Hatshepsut to Punt - part of the text states "...the Phoenicians..." but the remainder of the text is missing. It is in a part of the text which is supposed to be a statement by the King of Punt, pointing out the secret path to the land and mentioning the "steps of Myrrh". The Puntese already knew of the Phoenicians by this early date, and to go a step further the Puntese were also called Puoeni by the Egyptians, which is a term also used to describe Phoenicians. The Puntese were most likely Phoenician colonists.


The Phoenicians were known to navigate by the stars, and in fact the Romans called the North star the "Punic Star" because of its use by them for navigation, but did not understand how. Another navigation tool called the "gnomon" was used to determine the latitude by the position of the Sun. A Greek sea-captain from Massilia (now Marsielles in France) named Pytheas learned the use of it and used it in his exploration of the Atlantic coast of Europe, noting that the Northern Star is not precisely at the North Pole as well as other remarkable scientific observations including the midnight sun at high latitudes and fog banks. On his return to Massilia, Pytheas was rewarded by his Greek fellow citizens with ridicule and scorn, an attitude that persists to this day among some scholars.

Another navigational instrument which probably was in use by Phoenicians was the cross-staff, a long sighting staff with uprights set at various spots which allowed the user to determine latitude as well as direction. Furthermore, some instinctive oceanic navigation skill was very probable among these sailors - similar to the unerring way Polynesians could find their way to tiny specks of land in the vast expanse of the Pacific simply by observing the formations of clouds, the flights of birds and even the way waves form far from land. A short passage from the Greek book "Argonautica" describing the man who was to be the navigator for the fictional voyage - as being able to judge the time for sailing by the wind and the sky, and the direction to land by the swell of the sea.


Punic Calling Cards


The islands of the Canaries have stone ruins, the most imposing being a number of 'stepped' pyramidal structures located right in the middle of a town. Farther out in the Atlantic, the Azores have turned up with a hoard of Carthaginian coins, a statue of the 'horse' of Carthage, and a number of pottery fragments that could be Punic, but cannot be definitely ascribed to them. The official view? "May have been a ship that got lost." Along the Atlantic seaboard of the Americas a number of stone "steles" (monuments) have been found, usually inscribed in (of course) Punic, and many have the name of Hanno -the admiral sent out from Carthage with the express mission of exploration and colonization about 500 BC. Oddly, in northeastern Pennsylvania near the town of Hawley, one of these stone steles was found, inscribed in Punic ("This monument placed by Hanno, do not deface") of course this must be yet another "hoax". Some universities are now saying that the Phoenician seafarers may have been trafficking the entire circumnavigable coast of Africa and the coast of India as early as 1500 to 1200 BC.


The alphabets of India, Ceylon and Sumatra all originated from Phoenician - this is eloquent evidence of far ranging contact.

Inscriptions on stone are found throughout the Americas, and coins of Carthage have been found in a number of states. Nearly all have been found close to navigable waters, and oddly all are of the earliest issues of Carthage, none later than the First Punic war have turned up. A metal urn with Phoenician themes and likely a Carthaginian trade item was unearthed near the junction of the Chenango and Susquehanna rivers in New York.


Divers investigating the odd stone formation off Bimini Island found a shipwreck, that dated to the 1800's - while searching they found that it lay atop an older shipwreck, one that is positively Phoenician and dates to approximately 1000BC! Dr J Manson Valentine of Yale university confirmed the origins of the wreck. Evidence of other ancient shipwrecks exists, in particular a Punic vessel located off the coast of Honduras as well as one found "deeply buried in sand" in Mexico in the 19th century, another which is as yet unidentified off the coast of Texas as well as what was probably a Roman trading vessel off Beverly Massachusetts.


Carthaginian amphorae have been found in the Americas, as well as weapons, oil lamps, glass "trade" beads along the St Lawrence river among other "anomalous" finds.


Ancient historians


The Syracusan (Greek 100bc) historian Diodorus said the Carthaginians had a "large island" which was located "far out in the Atlantic ocean" - on which there were "many mountains" and "large navigable rivers". The land was rich in gold, gems, spices, etc. He stated that the Phoenicians had found it "by accident" while founding colonies on the west coast of Africa when some ships got lost. The Atlantic currents do in fact run straight at South America from that region so it would be possible for a lost ship to travel there, and the return voyage would be made easier by following the oceanic currents north then back east across the ocean. In fact this has happened in recent years, a small African fishing boat got lost in a storm and ended up on the coast of Brazil! In 1488 a certain Jean Cousin of Dieppe France, while sailing down the west coast of Africa was caught in a storm and blown across to Brazil. (This is four years prior to Columbus's more famous voyage.) The actual meteorological conditions do support this as probable. Diodorus said they (the Carthaginians) were "keeping it secret"!


Other historians (Herodotus and Polybius) have hinted at its existence, and further explained some of the other colonies. The coast south of Lixus was described as "teeming" with Punic trading colonies. One of the colonies founded by Hanno (500bc) which has not been located correctly was Cerne, (pronounced Ker-neh) it is my opinion this is today the Canary islands. When first discovered by the Portuguese, they found light skinned people, who had "writings" they themselves could not read and asked their Portuguese visitors if they could. They did not know what had become of their "motherland" - and this is taken by some authors to be proof of Atlantean influence, but I believe they were survivors of Cerne. The Portuguese were unimpressed with the people or their ruins and writings, and killed them - they also burnt the writings as possible heresy!


One of Plutarch's (2nd century ad) less known works* also states quite clearly the state of affairs. He cited a document which was found in the ruins of the old city of Carthage. He said the Carthaginians knew of a "true continent" which was located far to the west of Britain. He added that "greeks" had gone there and intermarried with the local peoples. The "greeks" who lived there, laughed at the people in Europe, which they said was a mere island by comparison - while they lived on the true continent which bordered the whole west side of the Atlantic.


*Moralia XII, On The Face Of The Moon


It is my opinion that the "big island" was the Americas! I do not think the Carthaginian explorers founded big cities in the new world, rather they were more interested in commerce. There are several arguments against their having contact, one of which is there is not any ruins of any fort. However, there are a number of ancient earthwork fortifications scattered through the Ohio river valley that date to (about) 200bc - the height of the power of Carthage. Some strange artifacts have turned up in these ruins (called the Hopewell culture) including one amulet that appears very much Hebrew! In some of these ruins there are long stone structures that look remarkably like the 'boat sheds' used by Punic and Greek sailors to protect their ships during foul weather. Location is a problem, but they are close to a river even though the river is today too shallow for navigation, it may well have been deeper then.


Supposedly there are no written evidence of ancient contact, but in fact there have been a great number of writings found inscribed on stone scattered throughout the Americas. A number of them have been studied and deciphered, many by Barry Fell. (His books America BC and Saga America contain a good deal on this) Although they are nearly always denounced as "hoaxes" it is strange that only recently are many readable! Most have been in an ancient Celtic script called Ogam, and quite a number are Iberian and Punic, while some are even Egyptian! The seamanship of the ancient Celts is little respected, yet no less than an authority than Julius Caesar described their ships as quite large compared to his small Roman vessels, capable of traveling in the open seas!

The strange ruins of Mystery Hill in New Hampshire are in fact the remains of a Punic-Celtic colony. Aristotle mentioned that the Carthaginians had once attempted a colony in their "secret land" but later withdrew it, blocking others from attempting it including their allies the Etruscans and even the Tyrians fleeing the wrath of Alexander. Several other sites in New England are obviously related as well as a likely connection with the strange stone walls of southern California and several native American tribes of the southwest such as the Pima and Zuni.


More information...


The true history of the Phoenician peoples and in particular the remarkable Carthaginians has never been told, virtually all we know of them is what was written by their enemies who were trying to paint them in the worst possible tones. Some of the worst of their practices such as human sacrifice were really nothing unusual for many cultures of their time. Even the supposedly civilized Romans buried alive two Gauls in an attempt to fulfill a prophecy which claimed that some part of Rome must be home to Gauls - not to mention the slaughter of countless thousands for entertainment! The Carthaginians may well have been the most accomplished explorers in history.


I personally can believe that the Carthaginians were here during their height. I think the difficulty of a transatlantic voyage is usually overestimated, especially for stuff this long ago. Now, massive fleets of hundreds of thousands of men are going to be an issue... but small trading missions is very reasonable, and likely is OTL.

A longer and more established Punic-native contact might help the Indigenous Americans a lot in the long run. I don't think there could or would be any mass attempts to colonize the Americas for a long time, if any - if Carthage is going to colonize anywhere soon, it'll be Britain and maybe some more of the West Coast of Africa. Instead, Mediterranean merchants will probably be content with small trading bases around the Caribbean, and maybe later the east coasts of North and South America. Plus, with longer and less 'rushed' contact, epidemics shouldn't be nearly as damaging to the native cultures, and you might see a slower Columbian exchange, so, for example, horses might be in the new world a lot longer.

One thing that could be really interesting is if Punic merchants attempted to sway Mesoamerican (or other native cultures, but I assume that's who the Carthaginians are going to be most interested in... it would be the Maya that would be the big Mesoamericans around 1 CE, right?) wars and stuff in certain directions beneficial to Punic trading purposes, which could dramatically alter American history... I'm getting ideas for my own timeline now! :p

On Egypt... personally I think a native or Nubian dynasty would be most interesting. But that's just me.


EDIT: OK, so the classic Mesoamerican period was a little later then I thought... :eek: Point still stands though.
 
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I can help you with the Mesoamerican stuff. God knows I wouldn't forgive you if you have the Carthaginians meet the Aztecs who wouldn't arrive in central Mexico until the 1200s. :rolleyes:
 
I can help you with the Mesoamerican stuff. God knows I wouldn't forgive you if you have the Carthaginians meet the Aztecs who wouldn't arrive in central Mexico until the 1200s. :rolleyes:

haha, yeah i'm certainly going to need some help when i get to that bend in the river.

but really, carthaginians in america circa year 1 AD is completely deserving of its own TL entirely, and it seems very plausible. but because this seems to be mostly against the grain and a bit of a grey area in history, i don't think it would be wise to go all out into it and have the carthaginians all over the americas ITTL, not for a while. but i certainly have a much higher respect for their maritime capabilities
 
I'm getting ideas for my own timeline now! :p
Me too... let's start a "world without Rome" fad! :p

Anyway, here are a few things (not an exhaustive list by any means) known in the Hellenistic world:


Military technology:
  • Non-gunpowder[1] siege weapons that made the medieval trebuchets pale in comparison[2].
  • There were repeating catapults, and repeating crossbows wouldn't be too much of a stretch.
Naval technology:
  • There was, as mentioned the ability to sail the open seas, which was possible because they possessed 1) a coordinate system, ie a scientific theory of cartography 2) reliable and 3) a method to locate the ship with respect to the coordinate system
  • It seems that there was a push towards building larger ships. The descriptions of some of them make me think of Zheng He's treasure ships.[3]
  • Canal-digging was pretty advanced, as there was a canal linking the Mediterranean and the Red Sea.
  • Ships had lead-plating to protect from barnacles, of which none of the British and Dutch ships had as late as the seventeenth century.
  • Very advanced catoptrics, the ability to build lighthouses. Pharos in Alexandria would be the most famous example, but many others had started to built throughout the Mediterranean.
Water engineering (this area should not be underestimated):
  • In aqueducts, pressure pipes (simply called "syphons") were used, which overcame depressions in the terrain.[4]
  • The Archimedean screw, a tool for lifting water.
Alternative (from muscle power, that is) energy sources[5]:
  • The water mill was known, and used throughout the whole Mediterranean. Horizontal ones to boot, which are more effective than vertical ones.
  • Windmills were in use, and so wide-spread that there were quite a few place-names named after them (anemourion)[6]
  • The possibilites of steam power had started to be explored[7].
Intricate machinery:
  • The Antikythera mechanism was found on a shipwreck outside the islet of Antikythera, between Peloponnesus and Crete. It was a sort of perpetual calendar that allowed the calculation of the phases of the moon, past and future. Two features stand out: 1) It uses at least thirty gears, which makes it almost seem like clockwork. 2) "[...] the presence of a differential turntable, a mechanism that allows the addition or subtraction of angular velocities. The differential was used to compute the synodic lunar cycle (moon phase cycle), by subtracting the effects of the sun's movement from those of the sidereal lunar movement".
Medicine, biology, botany, zoology etc:
  • Anatomical knowledge was quite developed[8].
  • Diagnosis, pathology etc. had been developed.
  • There was measurement of the pulse.
  • Mental illnesses had started to become explored.
  • Biological classification was in full swing[9], also fuelled by the conquests of Alexander the Great, who himself ensured that flora and fauna was sent back for study.
  • Fossils were widely studied, and many were identified as being of species no longer extant.
  • There had been developments towards an evolutionary theory[10].
Chemistry:
  • The problems with understanding what rate of progress Hellenistic chemistry was at is that it later morphed into alchemy - "a syncretism of Greek natural philosophy, Egyptian magic, allusions to Judaism and Christianity, craftsmen's recipes and empirical chemistry".
  • What we can be quite certain of is that the artficial pigment industries, cosmetics and fragrance industries were quite developed.
  • The conception of a molecule had forerunner in the oncos.
Art, music etc.:
  • There is the possibility of primitive motion pictures[11].
  • Figurative art was pretty advanced, with there starting to be more emphasis on painting rather than sculpture. An example of the new figurative art: http://www.ancientsculpturegallery.com/images/alexandria_HuntingDoggilded.jpg
  • The novel.[12]
  • The first keyboard instrument: the Ctesibius water organ.
  • More advanced music started to develop.
  • Greater interest in preserving cultural heritage, with traditional Greek songs etc. started to be written down.
  • The birth of Greek grammar.
Some advances in agriculture:
  • Plants from outside Hellenistic kingdoms started to be cultivated, and preexisting plants were improved through seeds imported from different countries.
  • "Animals from elsewhere were acclimated, breeds were improved through crosses, and wild animals such as hares, dormice and boars began being raised, as did fish species".
  • Egg incubators.[13]
  • There were animal-powdered automatic harvesters with teeth and blades. Very simple, but beyond the ken of medieval and early modern Europe.
  • Egypt's population around 1 B.C. was eight million, with a half million in Alexandria, and they were major exporters of grain. An estimate of Egypt's agricultural capacity in 1836 had it that eight million was the maximum population that could be fed if all land capable was cultivated...
  • The production of olive oil throughout North Africa was very advanced, aided by the invention of the screw press.
Some advances regarding metals:
  • There were drainage installations in mines, from Andalusia to Afghanistan.
  • In early Hellenistic times iron came into common use for tools and machinery of every kind.
  • "From the little information we have about metallurgical procedures we can glean certain technological innovations in the area of metal refining. Polybius tells us about a new blacksmith's bellow, perhaps fed by the Ctesibian pump".
  • The clearest example of advances in metallurgy would be the Colossus on Rhodes; when in the Renaissance they wanted to build a similar structure, they had no idea how to go about it.
Lucio Russo also has written a word of caution, useful to alternate history writers:

I think there can be no doubt about the importance that ancient science and Hellenistic technology could potentially have had for production processes, but in assessing the extent of applications actually deployed in Antiquity we must avoid certain traps that lurk in making comparisons, whether explicit or implicit, with our own age.
In Chaplin's movie Modern Times, the tokens of modernity are screws, gears, transmission belts, valves, steam engines, automata: a smorgasbord of inventions from ancient Alexandria. How can one say that these innovations were useless back then? Yet, though so much of the technology that made up the movie's factory goes back to the third century B.C., it is clear that in that century there were no factories like Chaplin's.
The Western world has experienced since the late seventeenth century a unique phenomenon in human history, characterized by an exponential increase in several technological and economical indicators, and the source of achievements and problems without parallel. (This growth certainly cannot continue for long at the same exponential pace.) The primitivists are right in warning us against the pitfalls of "modernizing" Antiquity by reading into it the accoutrements of modern life. There was certainly no Hellenistic Industrial Revolution, there were no stock brokers in Alexandria and the Mouseion was not the Royal Society. On the other hand, using today's Western world as a sort of universal standard, lumping all ages other than ours into an undifferentiated "underdeveloped" category, can be highly misleading. If we think that biology has predetermined a unique possible path for the human race, culminating in the "economic rationalism" of today, it may be possible to define other civilizations by how far they are from ours; but human history is much more complex than that.
The application of scientific technology to production does not necessarily mark the beginning of the process in which we find ourselves now, where technology itself grows exponentially. Having made this clear, I think it must be agreed that scientific technology did have in Antiquity important applications to production. The Mouseion's economic role was not comparable to that of the Royal Society, but that does not mean this role was insignificant, nor does it imply a lack of wisdom or foresight on part of the ancient scientists. The process of exponential development starting with what is usually called the Industrial Revolution as triggered by a plethora of economic, social, political, cultural and demographic factors that we have not yet understood in depth. It is more sensible to try to figure out what happened in Europe in the late seventeenth century than to ask why the same thing did not happen two thousand years earlier. Hellenistic scientific development was violently arrested by the Roman conquest. We may wish to speculate on what might have happened had this interruption not taken place. Nothing authorizes us to conclude that things would have gone the way it did in seventeenth century Europe; we do know, however, that the recovery of ancient knowledge and technology played a major role in the modern scientific take-off.

[1] "The introduction of firearms in the modern age concerned primarily large-bore guns used against fixed positions; as a personal weapon, the arquebus took centuries to supplant the pike. So the role of gunpowder was to replace the catapult, the technology of which had been lost".
[2] Fortification overall did change as well, because walls started to become "thicker and started being surrounded by moats, but were complemented by towers capable of hosting catapults". The advances in siege outpaced advances in defense, though, as shown by a rapidly increasing amount of victorious sieges.
[3] "Merchantmen also got bigger. Hiero II of Syracuse had a cargo ship built, the Syracusia [...] Thus we know that the ship, whose construction had required as much wood as sixty quadriremes, had on board, among other things, a gymnasium, a library, hanging gardens and twenty horse-stalls."
[4] "The most remarkable syphon was at Pergamum; it pushed water uphill to a height of perhaps 190 meters from the deepest point, and the pressure at the bottom must have been almost 20 atmospheres."
[5] Whoever holds Iberia is in a good position, as both wind and water energy is plentiful there, and there's even coal in the north.
[6] "Many scholars have felt that the Heronian passage can be disregarded because it is not confirmed by other writings. Heron presumably meant anemourion in a moment of distraction, forgetting that it had not been invented yet. We know that he was given to such lapses." :D
[7] "The first steam engine actually built in modern times seems to have been the one described in 1615 by Salomon de Caus; it operated an ornamental fountain intermittently. Thus the inheritance from Heron was so complete that it even concerned the end to which the machine was put. Heronian technology hung on for another century in various hands, until it became convenient to start building steam engines - which is to say, when the rapidly growing energy needs of nascent industrialization no longer could be met by watermills alone."
[8] There's even evidence of there being dissections of "condemned men" while they were still alive!
[9] It would not be seen again until Carl von Linné (Carolus Linnaeus).
[10] "We have seen, then, that the bases of modern evolutionism, namely the notions of mutation and natural selection, were both present in Hellenistic thought."
[11] "This is consistent with Heron's remark that an early automatic playlet merely showed, by way of motion, a face with blinking eyes - something that is of course easy to accomplish with an alternation of just two images. Heron also says that with still automata one can either show a character in motion, or a character appearing or disappearing."
[12] "The Hellenistic origin of the novel has long been obscured. It was thought that Greek-language novels first appeared in the late imperial age; this changed in 1945 when a papyrus was found in Oxyrynchus that dates from the first century B.C. and contains fragments of the Novel of Nivus. Now many scholars think that the novel originated in the second century B.C."
[13] "In the early sixteenth century Thomas More wrote admiringly that in Utopia "vast numbers of eggs are laid in a gentle and equal heat, in order to be hatched", but incubators would remain a mere literary memory still long after that."
 
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gosh, guys, this is insane! some of it i don't even know how to apply, but then the article did state that mass production on the scale of industrial revolution was unlikely for a long while, so that gives me time to think
 
Apart from the less-than-perfect design of Mediterranean vessels for trans-Atlantic voyages, the Carthaginian Empire is already minted with their holdings in North Africa and Spain. Their only other true rival between the Fourth to Third centuries BCE was Syracuse. Carthage here will have many hundreds of years to plant new emporiums on the west African coast and the possibility of colonising the Iberian interior. There shouldn't really be any reason to rush any forays across the Atlantic. Probably best to allow for the further development of Punic civilization in terms of demographics and nationhood first before they start sailing west.
 
Chapter One: Reign of the Senones
Part Five: The Rotting Corpse


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Historians note the lack of Rasna literature and documentation during this time period. Almost all of what is known comes either from the Greeks to the far south, or from histories written a century later by the Latin peoples who would later don the name of the Etruscans [1]. While in previous centuries, Rasna documentation was uncommonly complete, even during their spat with the Latin Romans [2], but suddenly with the rise of the Senones to their direct East, and increasingly powerful hand in the affairs of mexl Rasnal, the mysteriously Rasna suddenly stopped writing.

The most commonly accepted theory is that during this time where Rasna cities were sacked (and in the case of Clevsin, burned) almost yearly by this new and hyper-militant enemy, the educated classes of Rasna suffered. Either their fortunes were lost and less people could afford to buy or make materials to write with, or the Senones slaughtered them upon reaching the more affluent parts of whichever city they sacked that year.

The Senones were not keen on burning script. In most Celtic cultures, script was holy and only the Druids could write (both by law and ability). It seems unlikely that the Senones would intentionally burn any literature they found. This appears obvious when one looks at the historical record of events before the rise of Sena as a power in Italia left intact.

But with the death of Rasna literature, so it seemed the language itself was declining at a quickening speed. Make no mistake; it is easy for history books to discount the destructive force a raiding army can have upon a city and a civilization at large. It is estimated that the Senones managed to cut Rasna populations in half, while their population remained constant, if not increasing along the coast of the Adriatic. The city of Veii was already mostly Latinized by the time the Senones sacked and destroyed Roma. In fact, after Roma was left a burning rubble along the Tiber, most of the survivors fled and settled in Veii. This marked a growing trend of Latins moving north into the devastated Rasna cities and settling them.

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By 358 B.E. (365 B.C.) it is believed that the population of native Rasna speakers had dwindled down to as little as a quarter of what it once had in its heartland along the Tiber with the continued Senone military presence in the region and the Latin population moving in. However, in the Rasna cities further North, like Mantua, Felsina, Spica, Atria, and further West, like Fufluna, Felathri, and Vetluna, Rasna remained the majority language and ethnicity, mostly untouched by the Senones and Latins.

But on a political level, indeed, the Rasna could no longer be considered a formidable force. During the twenty-seven year long period of Senone invasion and subjugation of Rasna territories, starting with Brennos’ first assault on Clevsin in 383 B.E. (390 B.C.) and the final fall of Fufluna in 355 B.E. (363 B.C.) as the last independent city in the Rasna Confederation [3] to Senonirix Cingetocintus [4].

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[1] Will be explained in time. Just recall that the Latins were the ones who referred to the Rasna as Etrusci or Tusci
[2] OTL almost all Etruscan documents and literature were burned and destroyed by Roman invasions
[3] Not to be confused with Etruscan civilization. The Etruscan League only consisted of twelve cities in the Etruscan heart-land
[4] Gaulish name for First Warrior
 
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