The Talleyrand Plan

[Max Sinister]

I don't think I've ever seen a PopeWank ATL before!

Read Aeolus from Gurps Alternate Earths 2. Pope gets all of Italy except Venice.

Great Britain is re-catholized, as is Germany, and Protestantism only survives in South Africa, Scandinavia and independent America, which is restricted to the area east of the Appalachians. So it's Catholicwank too.

 

[LordKalvan]

I don't think I've ever seen a PopeWank ATL before!

If you are intrigued by the choice of monarch, I can tell you that it will end up being an outsider imposed by the Great Powers. It'll be an unexpected choice, but considering OTL threw up a scenario where Queen Victoria's uncle ended up ruling Belgium and a Wittelsbach was given Greece, anything is plausible!!!

True, there has been unexpected rulers appointed by the powers in the 19th century. And obviously there is the mother of all them, Napoleon. However, I would say that there is some difference between Belgium or Greece and the Italian throne. I'll reserve my judgment, and wait for the plot to unravel. In some discomfort, mind

 

[arctic warrior]

Not being familiar with the history of Italy or Belgium at this time BUT this is extremely interesting to follow. Keep it going.

 

[SteveW]

True, there has been unexpected rulers appointed by the powers in the 19th century. And obviously there is the mother of all them, Napoleon. However, I would say that there is some difference between Belgium or Greece and the Italian throne. I'll reserve my judgment, and wait for the plot to unravel. In some discomfort, mind

Agreed. I guess Greece and Belgium were convinient dumping grounds for Euro royalty in those days! The expected ruler to replace Francis of Modena will be very much a compromise ruler, one who will not be offensive to any of the main powers, will not come from a dynasty with an interest in the immediate area, and will have decidely liberal tendencies. It will be the liberal mood which will be Francis's undoing.

 

[SteveW]

Not being familiar with the history of Italy or Belgium at this time BUT this is extremely interesting to follow. Keep it going.

Thanks very much

The action will spread elsewhere at some point though, especially to northern Europe.

 

[arctic warrior]

Agreed. I guess Greece and Belgium were convinient dumping grounds for Euro royalty in those days! The expected ruler to replace Francis of Modena will be very much a compromise ruler, one who will not be offensive to any of the main powers, will not come from a dynasty with an interest in the immediate area, and will have decidely liberal tendencies. It will be the liberal mood which will be Francis's undoing.

Thanks very much

The action will spread elsewhere at some point though, especially to northern Europe.

The compromise being someone like Duke Carl/Charles of Glücksburg married to princess Vilhelmine Marie of Denmark? Just a wild guess...
Will stay tuned, especially when events turn north.

 

[SteveW]

Three days after the surprise attack on Austrian forces, which despite its small scale resulted in Radetzky pausing to take stock, revolutionaries in Bologna proclaimed the Call of Bologna, appealing for the intervention of Francis IV of Modena to enter the country and help them from the Austrians. Francis, who in the meantime had been making loud noises about setting up a constitutional convention when the dust had settled in Parma, was being held up as the great hope of Italian patriotism.

Meanwhile, in Lucca, there was a build-up of French troops under Marshal Gerard, who was replaced in the cabinet by Thiers (allowing Guizot to return to the top table as well). Louis-Philippe, Lafitte, Thiers and Gerard had decided that Austria would not be making any capital out of the situation in any way.

 

[LordKalvan]

Agreed. I guess Greece and Belgium were convinient dumping grounds for Euro royalty in those days! The expected ruler to replace Francis of Modena will be very much a compromise ruler, one who will not be offensive to any of the main powers, will not come from a dynasty with an interest in the immediate area, and will have decidely liberal tendencies. It will be the liberal mood which will be Francis's undoing.

God knows I don't like the Savoys, who were coming from a provincial capital, and overall were too conservative (funnily enough the only Savoy with some elan and polishing was Carlo Alberto, even if his substantial instability and deep catholicism were quite worrysome. Vittorio Emanuele II was more a squire than a king: courageous, unpolished, substantially uninterested in governing a kingdom. The famous sentence "I'm interested just in what I can fight, drink, ride or fuck" was created for him. Umberto I was a throwback to absolutism, and substantially a disaster: his assassination was a stroke of luck. Vittorio Emanuele III started well, and performed up to WW1 included; he did not make a right decision afterwards.
Umberto II is an unknown quantity: he got the crown way too late, but he reminded me more of Carlo Alberto than anyone else). Still compared to the other Italian rulers of the time, they were not the worse of the lot. Let me see who you are grooming as the first king of Italy. Letting Francesco IV go is not a great loss, his son might have been better (but he would have needed some serious tutoring in his youth).

Three days after the surprise attack on Austrian forces, which despite its small scale resulted in Radetzky pausing to take stock, revolutionaries in Bologna proclaimed the Call of Bologna, appealing for the intervention of Francis IV of Modena to enter the country and help them from the Austrians. Francis, who in the meantime had been making loud noises about setting up a constitutional convention when the dust had settled in Parma, was being held up as the great hope of Italian patriotism.

Meanwhile, in Lucca, there was a build-up of French troops under Marshal Gerard, who was replaced in the cabinet by Thiers (allowing Guizot to return to the top table as well). Louis-Philippe, Lafitte, Thiers and Gerard had decided that Austria would not be making any capital out of the situation in any way.

What's the mood in London and St. Petersburg?

 

[SteveW]

What's the mood in London and St. Petersburg?

At the moment, Russia is going to watch and wait. As for London- it's also the time of the Reform Act, so expect some agitation. I'm thinking that there might end up being an International Brigade launched there of volunteers for Italy.

 

[SteveW]

In London, the cry went up for volunteers for Italy. Focused on the Birmingham Political Union, nearly 3,000 men, mostly unemployed factory workers from the Midlands and North West of England, headed to the capital to sign up for what became known as the International Brigade, which ended up under the leadership of John Frost, a Welsh radical. The new French ambassador, the aging hero and carbonaro Marquis de La Fayette, arranged with Paris for these men to be given passage.

There was a similar phenomenon elsewhere. As well as English volunteers, Irishmen, Dutchmen, Liegeois, Prussian liberals, Swiss and Frenchmen flooded south. There was a simmering sense of revolt across Italy.

Finally, on the 18th September, French troops landed at Ancona, and other French troops crossed from Lucca into Modena, given free passage by Francis IV. They were heading east. The next day, the Austrian ambassador delivered an ultimatum to Louis-Philippe. It went unanswered. With Russia, Britain and Prussia declaring their neutrality and watching (all three more concerned elsewhere, especially Russia), Austria felt safe in taking on the French at a distance from the French mainland. Thus, Austria declared war on France on the 1st October, 1831. It was all a formality: France and Modena had already begun offensive action.

Radetzky was now wheeling through Romagna, and already held Ferrara. Turning to Ancona to meet the French landing, he was forced to halt when news came through that a Franco-Modenese force had crossed the border near Finale Emilia. If he didn't deal with them, they would cut off his supply lines. He pulled back to Forli and began to head back north.

Worse news for the Austrians was on its way. Emboldened by French action and promises of support, Sardinian troops crossed tentatively into Lombardy-Venetia. Then, on the 2nd October, rioting broke out in Padua and Treviso in Lombardy-Venetia. It was a national emergency for Austria now.

Mazzini was in raptures. The dream was coming true. Or was it?

 

[LordKalvan]

Interesting: the game is going faster in TTL, looks like a mixture of 1848 and 1859. The only thing which looks a bit strange is the Piedmontese entering Lombardy: it does not look consistent with the Carlo Alberto of this decade 9evn if the Savoys had been coveting Milan for the last 150 years at least).

Possibly there have been talks with Loui Philippe? r maybe the french prefer 2 horses running for the title of king of Northern Italy? from their POV, it would certainly be better.

An insurrection in Padua is in the cards; I'd have expected one in Venice too, where the Austrans are not loved at all. Treviso is a bit more surprising: a provincial, sleepy town. Verona or Vicenza or brescia would have been more likely.

The international brigade is a nice touch. Yous ure that the numbers are sensible, though? 3000 men is a lot. And while the bulk of the soldiers would be from lower classes (and maybe from ireland) I'd expect that a substantial portion comes from upper class: liberals, university students, even younger sons of peerage

 

[SteveW]

Interesting: the game is going faster in TTL, looks like a mixture of 1848 and 1859. The only thing which looks a bit strange is the Piedmontese entering Lombardy: it does not look consistent with the Carlo Alberto of this decade 9evn if the Savoys had been coveting Milan for the last 150 years at least).

Possibly there have been talks with Loui Philippe? r maybe the french prefer 2 horses running for the title of king of Northern Italy? from their POV, it would certainly be better.

An insurrection in Padua is in the cards; I'd have expected one in Venice too, where the Austrans are not loved at all. Treviso is a bit more surprising: a provincial, sleepy town. Verona or Vicenza or brescia would have been more likely.

The international brigade is a nice touch. Yous ure that the numbers are sensible, though? 3000 men is a lot. And while the bulk of the soldiers would be from lower classes (and maybe from ireland) I'd expect that a substantial portion comes from upper class: liberals, university students, even younger sons of peerage

It's going quickly I agree, but it will settle down. The French are indeed backing two horses: as much as his government are more interested in the liberal arguments for fighting Austria, Louis-Philippe is interested in clipping the Habsburg's wings a little and having a malleable northern Italy. Carlos Alberto's actions are more opportunist here: after all, if there's going to be a French expedition against the Austrians and the Modenese could benefit, he'd be mad to stay out of the game and see Francis IV do so well.

Glad you like the international brigade idea. 3000 might be a bit high, but it could well be more the upper range. There are a lot of unemployed radical workers about (Manchester in particular did at the time- the folk memories of Peterloo die hard as well!) Plus, I'm interested to see how something like this will affect British politics when these men return.

More later!

 

[LordKalvan]

It's going quickly I agree, but it will settle down. The French are indeed backing two horses: as much as his government are more interested in the liberal arguments for fighting Austria, Louis-Philippe is interested in clipping the Habsburg's wings a little and having a malleable northern Italy. Carlos Alberto's actions are more opportunist here: after all, if there's going to be a French expedition against the Austrians and the Modenese could benefit, he'd be mad to stay out of the game and see Francis IV do so well.

All true, but the crisis comes when Carlo Felice is on his death bed, and Carlo Alberto has a very pro-Austrian government. I can understand that with the French in Lucca, and Ancona, and the Romagna in full insurrection...

Glad you like the international brigade idea. 3000 might be a bit high, but it could well be more the upper range. There are a lot of unemployed radical workers about (Manchester in particular did at the time- the folk memories of Peterloo die hard as well!) Plus, I'm interested to see how something like this will affect British politics when these men return.

More later!

Well, if 3000 men come from British isles only, the overall turn-over of the volunteers from all Europe will be truly significant (in the list you made earlier, you forgot the Poles, btw). There can be strong impacts on British domestic policies when the brigaders go back, in particular if - as I think - there are substantial numbers from the upper crust.

 

[SteveW]

As the volunteers began to arrive in Modena and Lucca, the Franco-Modenese forces were doing relatively well under General Savary. Although they had not broken the Austrian supply lines, their intervention had forced Radetzky to pull back. Another detachment, the troops under Gerard, reached Bologna on the 12th October with ease, the Austrian garrison having fled. Two days later, Francis IV (who had been travelling at a distance behind Gerard's men) proclaimed himself Duke of Romagna. Further north, the Sardinians were making little headway against the Austrians, but nonetheless the Austrians had received a slap on the face. Radetzky reported back to Vienna that the campaign was facing serious difficulties, and that Austria was fighting essentially a two-front war, three fronts if he counted internal revolts.

Emperor Franz therefore on the 21st October ordered all Austrian troops to fall back from Romagna and to crush the revolts in Venetia. This was done, most notoriously in the Week of Padua, in which nearly 600 people were murdered. Word was sent to Louis-Philippe, Carlo Alberto and Francis of Modena that Austria was willing to talk. The Pope was not informed.

Meanwhile, Francis had drawn up a list of liberal and Carbonari leaders, to be arrested once peace had been agreed. He was not going to let a group of charcoal-burners interrupt his plans to become master of northern Italy with their "democracy" and their strange ideas. He was already having Ciro Menotti trailed.

And so it was. In November 1831, at the Treaty of Bellanzona in Switzerland, the following were agreed upon:
- Francis IV of Modena was recognised as ruler of Parma and Romagna, as the provocatively-titled King Francis I of Padania, with his capital at Modena.
-Lucca was to remain an independent duchy. As the French were unwilling to accept a Habsburg nor the Habsburg to accept a Frenchman, it was agreed that Prussia and Britain would arbitrate to choose a monarch. Their eventual choice was Prince Frederick of the Netherlands, who had been an original choice to be king of Greece. Duke Frederico I would arrive the next year.
- Austria was to make almost no territorial concessions to Sardinia, to Carlo Alberto's great chagrin.
-France was to have full, tariff-free trading rights in Padania and Lucca.
-Austria's control of Lombardy-Venetia was not in doubt.

It wasn't as bad as Austria had imagined it would be, but still it had been a slap in the face for Franz and for Gregory XVI.

 

[SteveW]

The clamour for a constitution began in early December of that year in Bologna with protests in the streets. The new King Francis replied not with an acceptance of the demands, but with a bloody repression on the 4th December. Ciro Menotti was publicly executed days later. Francis ordered his troops to hunt down liberals and gaol them. He was going to assert his God-given divine rights.

But the Padanian army was not monlithic. Only a month earlier it had been forced together from disparate elements in disparate duchies. The troops in Parma outright refused to join in the repression. Carbonari, feeling betrayed by their former great hope, began to organise. The other thing Francis had forgotten was the presence of many volunteers from overseas, who were anticipating a further campaign of liberation elsewhere, but also he had assumed that the French troops would be withdrawing soon.

He was wrong.

On Christmas Day, a detachment of Polish and Prussian volunteers under the exile general Jozef Chlopicki took control in Ferrara after three days of bloody fighting against a loyal garrison. Parma itself declared against Francis.

Louis-Philippe and Lafitte watched with concern. French troops were ordered north to make sure Austria did not try to take advantage.

In his first act to rein in the volunteers, New Year's Day of 1832 saw Francis disarm and execute fifty foreign volunteers. His mistake was the chosen nationality: half were British volunteers. Earl Grey was not going to be impressed when he found out, even if they WERE generally radical types. Plus, Britain could do well out of throwing her weight around in this mess...

 

[SteveW]

As revolt fermented in Padania, an event in the north of the Continent momentarily diverted attention away from the Italian peninsula. On the 8th January 1832, whilst out riding, the one-eyed Duke George of Cumberland fell and died. His father, the Duke of Cumberland and Teviotdale, Ernest Augustus, was the presumptive heir to the crown of Hanover once William IV died, Salic Law preventing William's British heir, Victoria, from becoming Hanover's queen.

William and Ernest had to resolve the issue. The next heir would have to be their younger brother, Augustus, Duke of Sussex. However, he didn't want the throne (although records seen since suggest that he was leaned on not to want it, being somewhat dubious of character). Thus, Ernest Augustus's new heir would be the next brother, Adolphus, who was already Viceroy of Hanover.

 

[LordKalvan]

The plot thickens, and the duke of Modena (I will not grace him with an usurped royal title) has taken off his liberal mask very quickly. I am looking forward to him getting his deserts. With some 10-15,000 "freedom fighters" in his newly acquired lands and the dissatisfaction of the regiments from Parma (not to mention pissing off lord palmerston) it will be not long.

I would anticipate the same kind of repression in Piedmont too: it's what Carlo Alberto did on his accession to the throne, and here he's also been slapped in the face at the peave table. Genova and Savoy will be up in rebellion both. In OTL Louis Philippe played the role of the fish in a barrell, allowing revolutionaries to find haven in southern France, but also allowing the secret agents of Modena and Piedmont to infiltrate them, and to sabotage their plans. Should not be very different in TTL. However, the British might decide to make an example of someone...

 

[SteveW]

The plot thickens, and the duke of Modena (I will not grace him with an usurped royal title) has taken off his liberal mask very quickly. I am looking forward to him getting his deserts. With some 10-15,000 "freedom fighters" in his newly acquired lands and the dissatisfaction of the regiments from Parma (not to mention pissing off lord palmerston) it will be not long.

I would anticipate the same kind of repression in Piedmont too: it's what Carlo Alberto did on his accession to the throne, and here he's also been slapped in the face at the peave table. Genova and Savoy will be up in rebellion both. In OTL Louis Philippe played the role of the fish in a barrell, allowing revolutionaries to find haven in southern France, but also allowing the secret agents of Modena and Piedmont to infiltrate them, and to sabotage their plans. Should not be very different in TTL. However, the British might decide to make an example of someone...

Cheers for the tip on Piedmont- I'll use that, I think.

As for Modenese agents- Francis won't even get that luxury. He's well-overplayed his hand here. Padania will remain in existence after he goes, but it will end up a liberal place, with a constitutional monarch. And Britain will also extract some benefits from what has happened, with French conivance (Louis-Philippe was on excellent terms with the British, and Guizot too later, and it was a step too far in their favour which brought him down).

 

[SteveW]

In Sardinia, Carlo Alberto was afraid of what was happening in Padania, and set about rounding up liberals and in particular supporters of Mazzini. This he did with a great deal of success.

On the 8th February, a British gunboat appeared off Ancona. It was Francis's worst nightmare: Earl Grey had clearly decided that the lives of the radicals were worth something. Grey had spotted an ideal opportunity: throwing Britain's weight around would distract from some of the rows at home and give him more moral support to push through his plans, and showing some sympathy might also mollify the radicals back at home. Louis-Philippe was satisfied enough- after all, Britain had been wronged, and it would be useful to have the British onside.

On the 9th,a message was brought ashore, demanding compensation for the British deaths. No reply was received. Thus, the next morning at dawn, the bombardment began. In addition, British marines from Corfu were roughly a day away.

In Modena itself, there was havoc. Volunteers were roaming the streets, looting, robbing, and attacking the state apparatus. It was mayhem. Francis had left the city and was attempting to regroup near Bologna. The Parman troops were heading east and marching on Modena.

On the 12th February, fleeing Anconans were on the roads west. The news was disturbing- British marines had landed at Ancona. This was the ultimate signal to Padanian troops. For miles around, nearly two-thirds of the garrisons deserted. Francis's tenure as King Francis I of Padania was nearly over, after a matter of months.

 

[LordKalvan]

Francesco is just reaping what he sowed. I'm looking forward to see who will get the crown (I would frankly prefer a republic, but can understand that it would be too contentious, placed in the heartland of Norther Italy, and bordering Lombardy, Venetia and what remains of the papal states).
Just a couple of minor nitpicks:

• it's "Parmesan", and not "Parman". Just like the cheese with the same name, which comes from Parma
• I suggested "Cis-Padania", same as the republic created in 1796: the lands south of the Po river.. "Padania" would describe all the Po river basin, i.e. include also Piedmont, Lombardy and all Venetia west of the Adige. Quite a claim, isn't it?

I'm surprised that the pope is completely silent at this stage. Did he keep Umbria, or was his territory limited to Latium only?
Another thing: the newly-created stated borders with Two Sicilies too on the Adriatic. Another open sore: I would say that Ferdinand is also quite unhappy.

In OTL, a number of powers participated in the suppression of the 1830-34 insurrections. In TTL, France is with the good guys, and also Britain is starting to make ripples. Austria has been slapped on the wrist 9and it might have been much worse - maybe it will be much worse in the close future ).
Spain too sent a couple of regiments to support the pope, as Naples did. I would expect Spanish troops to be sent to Rome in TTL too. A papacy which feels betrayed by France, and let down by Austria: so it turns for support to the Bourbons.