The Myth of Intervention and the ACW

The Saranac mounted 11 shell guns of 8 inch calibre.
This is why you can't always trust Wikipedia, particularly on US navy matters. According to the ORN, as of 30 January 1862 she actually carried eight broadside 8in shell guns and one pivot. With Tartar's suggested armament, that gives Tartar a 8in gun for each of Saranac's, plus two more 8in guns, 1 110pdr and two 40pdrs. Which is basically another sloop firing at her.

She was a sidewheeler able to make 9 knots under steam alone and 13 knots sail and steam
As for speed, in 1850 when she was brand new and carrying only six guns (2 8in pivots, 4 8in broadside) she still only made 12 knots maximum. By 1867 she was down to 10 knots maximum and 7 average, and the ORN suggests her Civil War maximum was 8.75 with an average of 5. Whether that was down to the length of her commission,* a serious problem with the 1857 engine overhaul, the weight of additional guns (and presumably men to fight them) or the poor training of her crew or captain is unclear. However, there's no wonder you object to her fictional treatment if you think she had two guns and four knots of speed more than she historically did.

*She had already been in commission for four years by the time of the Trent, around the time that most Royal Navy ships would be decommissioned, and would stay in commission until 1869.
 
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Saphroneth

Banned
However, there's no wonder you object to her fictional treatment if you think she had two guns and four knots of speed more than she historically did.
To me the bigger surprise is that the Tartar (with at least five rifles and about a dozen shell guns) is compared to the Asp (one gun).

ED: Tartar at Shimonoseki is listed as 20 guns. So roughly twice the broadside of Saranac, and some of those are rifles - while they're all contact fuzed.
 
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To me the bigger surprise is that the Tartar (with at least five rifles and about a dozen shell guns) is compared to the Asp (one gun).
Plus Tartar is thirty years younger and not a paddle ship. Looks like I have ended up saying it again:
Said it before, and I'll probably end up saying it again:
It must be a relief to find out that the story people take offence at isn't the one you've actually written.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
Armstrong gun production as of mid-1863.

From the appendix to the evidence given to the Armstrong and Whitworth committee, 1 Aug 1863. Noted to be incomplete.
Separate rows with the same gun included often have "overlaps" - that is, the same gun serial number appearing in both.


Gun type, Largest serial number shown
RGF (Royal Gun Foundry)
6 pounder, 95
9 pounder, 201
12 pounder land service 8.5 cwt, 364
12 pounder sea service 8 cwt, 260
20 pounder sea service, 255
20 pounder land service, 62
40 pounder long, 208
110 pounder, 696
110 pounder light, 77
40 pounder wedge short, 1

EOC (Elswick Ordnance Company)
12 pounder 8 cwt, 91
20 pounder land service, 27
20 pounder sea service, 221
40 pounder, 603
70 pounder, 34
110 pounder, 258


Issued to HMS Warrior
EOC 40 lber 186,202,204
EOC 110 lber 7,40,87,90,102,113,116,119
EOC 12 lber 8 cwt 83
RGF 20 lber 20,190/191 (unclear)
(From this we can confirm that guns are missing from the table.)
 
Yes, certainly - I'd thought the salient point was that it happened in Hong Kong, and got all mixed up and turned around. Saginaw, Seneca, Saranac - what's wrong with giving all your ships simple, easy to understand names like Invincible, Inflexible and Indomitable?

(At some point there's going to be a HMS USS, just to screw with some heads.)

There's already been an HMS President!
(One of which was one of the "Big Six" Captured in the War of 1812, the circumstances of which do not make the USN appear very honourable, she Struck Her Colours and then tried to sneak off!?)
And there's one of them in service in 1862, which saw action during the Crimean, admittedly as an RNR Drill Ship.

The current HMS President is an RNR shore establishment near Tower Bridge.
 
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Saphroneth

Banned
Given that I couldn't find a reference to Asp in your timeline, some confusion is inevitable.
True.

Though I think that if I wanted to take exception with a naval battle in a Trent TL, I could do worse than look at the Mississippi and the Racoon - the Mississippi being an 1841 side-wheeler with 2 old-style 10" shell guns and eight old-style 8" shell guns as armed OTL (list speed on wikipedia: 10 knots), and the Racoon being an 1857 Pearl-class sloop with (as built) 20 8" old-style shell guns and 1 10" old-style shell pivot, and having subsequently recieved:
EOC 40 lber 263, 244
RGF SS 12-lber 20, 27
RGF 110 lber 335, 567

In other words, a ship with (at least) four heavy breechloading rifles and with about fourteen-sixteen other guns, a three knot speed advantage over Mississippi, percussion shells, and screw instead of paddle.

In the Trent TL of which I speak, the Racoon is rather easily disabled by the Mississippi, with the Mississippi's crew firing two or three broadsides to each one of Racoon (quite an achievement given Racoon has so many breechloaders). This engagement starts with the Racoon having her T crossed by the slower ship, so perhaps the Racoon's captain was drunk driving*

Though what makes it odder is that the text of the TL mentions that the Mississippi has been rearmed and refitted to have 22 guns, of which at least two are 10" pivots.
By my calculations the Mississippi's guns OTL total (at most) (8x63) + (86x2) cwt; that is, 676 cwt. With 22 guns that's an average of 30 cwt per gun, and that means that most of her guns are (must be) 32-lbers of 27 cwt.
If the 10" guns are retained, then there's 504 cwt left for the remaining 20 guns and so the ship is actually overweight just carrying 32-lbers! Though given the size of the paddles a larger broadside would be hard to fit anyway. (If the 10" Paixhans guns have been replaced by 10" Dahlgren guns, they're even heavier and so the spare weight is down to 436 cwt - enough for a 24 pounder broadside.)

So we have a ship with 2 10" pivots and a 32-lber broadside handily defeating a ship which is armed with as many heavy guns as she has light guns, more rifles than she has heavy guns, percussion fuzes to her time fuzes, and which has screw instead of paddle, and doing so by firing two to three times as fast as a ship with breechloaders for her heavy guns (which, by my calculations, means that the Mississippi is firing a 10" gun about once every twenty seconds or so if Racoon is doing as well as RN gun crews could).
Did I mention that the Mississippi is also being fired upon by HMS Edgar (liner) and Terror (ironclad)? And that her shells are noted to be just as damaging to them as they are to the corvette? (Yes, that includes the ironclad, specifically noted as such; from that I can only assume that they're penetrating with shell - since this is impossible for any US gun of the time, this means she's armed with guns stolen from the future. The alternative is that the Racoon is actually undamaged by the Mississippi, but sank out of pity.)



I apologize if this is slightly off topic; it seemed to be a useful example of how people rate the USN and the RN at times.

*an odd thing to do if the captain's got Prince Alfred on board.
 
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Saphroneth

Banned
And a note on counter-battery fire in the Americas.

There were four steel Whitworth rifles at the north end of the Confederate line at Gettysburg, under Hardaway. They used solid shot (the fuzes of the Confederate ammunition were not reliable) and were firing from 2,000 yards away; nevertheless, they knocked out five Union guns, from out of the range at which any Union guns could reply, and their fire could reach all parts of the field.

If these guns were British-Army Armstrongs, they would have been firing percussion shells - and there would have been a lot more than four of them. Thus I take from this example that long range counterbattery fire was quite possible on a black powder Civil-war era battlefield.
 
Armstrong gun production as of mid-1863.

From the appendix to the evidence given to the Armstrong and Whitworth committee, 1 Aug 1863. Noted to be incomplete.
The evidence of the 1863 ordnance select committee might be more helpful, particularly when read in combination with the 1862 data. They do reconcile to yours fairly well, though.

Manufactured and supplied at Elswick up to 31 March 1863:
300pdr: 20 (15 outstanding)
110pdr: 261 (16 outstanding)
70pdr: 101 (87 outstanding)
40pdr: 633 (39 outstanding)
20pdr: 30
12pdr: 92

Manufactured (issued) by the Royal Gun Factory to 31 March 1863:
6pdr: 96 (86)
9pdr: 202 (181)
12pdr: 625 (618)
20pdr: 319 (318)
40pdr long: 250 (183)
40pdr short: 39 (0)
40pdr wedge: 12 (1)
70pdr: 154 (0)
110pdr light: 79 (59)
110pdr heavy: 696 (682)
110pdr, proof vent: 1 (0)
110pdr, wedge: 8 (0)
300pdr: 4 (0)

So that's 1,520 guns in 13 months:
356 110pdr
168 70pdr
697 40pdr
43 20pdr
35 12pdr
170 9pdr
51 6pdr

ED: Tartar at Shimonoseki is listed as 20 guns. So roughly twice the broadside of Saranac, and some of those are rifles - while they're all contact fuzed.
Apparently Tartar only had a single 110pdr pivot on board: RGF No. 169, which she took on in July 1863 from HMS Bacchante (although HMS Sutlej took it out to the Pacific for her, and it's listed as being with Sutlej in August 1863). So I guess that in a Trent war she would have had her original armament of 2 68pdr pivots and 18 8in.

the Mississippi being an 1841 side-wheeler with 2 old-style 10" shell guns and eight old-style 8" shell guns as armed OTL)... Though what makes it odder is that the text of the TL mentions that the Mississippi has been rearmed and refitted to have 22 guns, of which at least two are 10" pivots.
ORN as of 27 May 1861: 1 9in pivot, 10 8in broadside, 1 light 12pdr. As of 21 November 1861 she had 1 10in pivot, 19 8in, and 1 20pdr Parrott. 22 guns is not completely unreasonable, though it does seem a heavier load than she managed historically.

the Racoon is rather easily disabled by the Mississippi, with the Mississippi's crew firing two or three broadsides to each one of Raccon (quite an achievement given Racoon has so many breechloaders).
The guns are pretty much the same weight on each side (although the British 8in shell had a bursting charge 20% larger than the American version). Raccoon's crew are presumably regular sailors with the benefit of HMS Excellent/Cambridge training. And yet the Mississippi fires three times as fast as Raccoon does? At least we British exceptionalists only claim that British regular infantry would fire more accurately than the Union ones, not that they were capable of 12 shots a minute with a rifled musket.

perhaps the Racoon's captain was drunk driving*
Someone's been taking the 'rum, sodomy and the lash' quotation a little too literally.
 
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Saphroneth

Banned
ORN as of 27 May 1861: 1 9in pivot, 10 8in broadside, 1 light 12pdr. As of 21 November 1861 she had 1 10in pivot, 19 8in, and 1 20pdr Parrott. 22 guns is not completely unreasonable, though it does seem a heavier load than she managed historically.
Ah, okay - thanks for that. I suppose I was a little too pessimistic on possible rearming - though frankly being able to damage a liner's sidewalls and an ironclad as heavily with that kind of gun as you can damage a corvette seems... odd.


The evidence of the 1863 ordnance select committee might be more helpful, particularly when read in combination with the 1862 data. They do reconcile to yours fairly well, though.
Useful - though my main purpose was to look up what guns went where, and the numbering was a helpful bonus I resorted to when the original purpose turned out incomplete (as only an average of half the guns were reported with their current position).
 
the Mississippi is firing a 10" gun about once every twenty seconds or so if Racoon is doing as well as RN gun crews could
Funny you should say that: '25 rounds "single shotted" were fired from an 8-inch 65cwt gun with 5lb charges,by the new system in 10min. 55 sec, which gave an interval of 26sec. between each round.'
So Mississippi may well have been firing once every eight seconds, which I think we can all agree is entirely reasonable and not physically impossible in the least.

frankly being able to damage a liner's sidewalls and an ironclad as heavily with that kind of gun as you can damage a corvette seems... odd.
I mean, it's still pretty ridiculous:

Edgar: 1x110pdr RBL pivot; 2x40pdr RBL, 52x32pdr, 34x8in shell broadside
Raccoon: 1x110pdr RBL, 1x68pdr pivot*; 18x8in shell, 2x40pdr RBL broadside
Terror (ironclad): 16x68pdr broadside
versus
Mississippi: 2x10in shell pivot, 20x8in shell broadside

Result: Union victory, 1 British ship sunk.

*As per Army and Navy Gazette 28 June 1862, though a 2x110pdr layout seems more logical. However, as Tartar received only one 110pdr but had previously had two 68pdr pivots, it might have been fairly standard.
 
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Posted by Saphroneth, 31 May 2016 on the "If they will not meet us on the open sea" (a Trent TL) thread

27 December
Lyons is informed that Mason and Slidell will not be released from captivity. (PoD.)

29 December
Lyons leaves the US via New York on the sloop Rinaldo. (n.b. Detaining him would be contra to all diplomatic standards.)

3 January
First tranche of Canadian militia officially completes mobilization. 38,000 rank and file (>40,000 All Ranks) are mobilized, in addition to the 5,000 Class A active militia and additional newly raised volunteers. These troops are all armed with Enfield rifle-muskets, and begin drill and target practice with training from NCOs of the 30th and 47th Foot.
At about the same date, the US begin calling up additional volunteers to form into a field army in case it is necessary to invade Canada. The projections are for ~200,000 troops, though there are significant concerns about the number of small arms available - it was only a month ago that Cameron asked Northern governers not to send any more regiments unless called for (due to the shortage of small arms; most regments thus raised have been armed with smoothbores rather than rifles) - and about paying for these additional soldiers, since the crisis has already caused the banks of the Union to suspend specie payments.

5 January
Immortalite arrives at the Chesapeake. The captain discovers Lyons has quit the country, and in response lights her boilers and sails hard for Bermuda. The USN blockading squadron does not engage her - at this point the two nations are not at war - and in fact informed Immortalite of the movement of the ambassador.

8 Jan
Immortalite makes Bermuda, and conveys the news to Adm. Milne. Milne orders his ships to concentrate ahead of the declaration of war, and has their coal bunkers topped off from the Dromedary hulk as they come in. (Due to the geometry of the Bermuda harbour basin, the battleships cannot enter the basin to coal in bad weathers and must use lighters - fortunately the pause is long enough that Hero and Donegal have time to enter and coal fully.)

8/9 Jan
Overnight Cabinet session in the United Kingdom on whether to declare war. The decision is made in the affirmative.


9 Jan
A fast steamer leaves the UK carrying the news of the war to Bermuda. It will make the crossing in ten days.
Other steamers head for Jamaica, Halifax, South Africa, and the Pacific - among other destinations.


Tuscaroa is in harbour in Southampton when war is declared. She is originally not aware of the decision, being more concerned with keeping watch on the Nashville, but her captain (Tunis A.M. Craven) discovers the state of war when HMS Dauntless (guardship) steams up to her and levels her broadside.
Tuscaroa is captured without fuss and will become HMS Troubridge.

12 Jan
Orders are tendered in Britain for ironclads to pass through the Canadian canals and operate on the Great Lakes. Their maximum length, beam and draft are defined by the dimensions of the locks on the Welland Canal, and they are to deliver in 90 days. To speed construction they will use plates rejected from the Warrior - lower quality, but still rolled armour.

15 Jan
HMS Mersey takes on Prince Albert to carry him back to Bermuda and out of harms’ way. Dunlop is alerted that there may be a state of war soon existing.



16 Jan
More orders are tendered in the US for various ironclads - these include the Passaic class of five, the Casco class of eight and another four broadside ironclads (which will complete the 20-ironclad navy). First delivery is expected for the summer, pending availability of guns and armour plate.


17 Jan
It is noted that a worrying proportion of British subjects serving in the armies of the Union (approx. 30% of the total ~100,000) are thought likely to either desert or resign at the prospect of facing their fellow countrymen. This is not considered a major problem by the Department of War as, while these men tend to be reasonably skilled (indeed many of them are ex-British soldiers) the main constraint on the size of the Union armies is rapidly becoming not manpower but firearms. Every arms shipment is being used almost straightaway without any reserve building up,and the figure of 200,000 (i.e. 230,000 new recruits, requiring 200,000 new firearms over wastage) has not yet been achieved and does not look close to being achieved by the end of the month.

18 Jan
A second tranche of troops is ordered to Canada from the United Kingdom (the last of the 18 battalions already ordered to Canada will leave next week). The 1/8th, 2/18th, 2/19th, 2/21st, 2/25th, 26th, 29th, 31st, 32nd, 41st, 49th, 53rd, 1/60th, 61st, 78th, 84th and 86th are all ordered to make ready for movement - in addition, requests are made for militia battalions to go overseas and relieve British colonial garrisons. It is hoped that the Mediterranean alone - if stripped down to Crimean levels of regular battalions - can release a further 11 battalions of infantry.
Preliminary estimates conclude that as many as 8 divisons of infantry may be in Canada by the time of the thaw in April - all well armed and trained, being prewar Regulars and many of them with Crimean or Indian experience.


20 Jan
Milne recieves confirmation of the declaration of war, along with confidential orders - he is to aggressively raid the US east coast and destroy fortifications where possible, to attempt to draw off as much manpower as possible from the expected invasion of Canada. This is considered to be a more immediate priority than throwing a blockade across the coast - that can wait a month or two. (This strategic assessment is perhaps in error, as it was made without understanding of the critical shortage of small arms the Union is finding itself with)


21 Jan
Greyhound sets off to carry the war order to Rum Key. When it arrives there, Bulldog will carry it on to Dunlop.
The news of the declaration of war arrives in Halifax. It reaches Upper and Lower Canada, the Maritimes - and Washington - within hours by telegraph.

22 Jan
A paddle steamer sets off from the Potomac to Port Royal, carrying orders to recall the blockading squadrons in the South Atlantic and the Gulf.
In discussion with the captain of broadside ironclad HMS Terror, Frederick Hutton, Milne informs the captain that he will be expecting Terror to participate as soon as possible as he feels it will be impossible to reduce the US forts without her.
Hutton is proud of his vessel, but he was also proud of his previous - Neptune - and sailed her in the Baltic in the Russian War. He respectfully reminds Milne of the lessons of Bomarsund, in which sailing vessels with steam power sufficed to reduce the very modern fortifications in the Aland islands.
Milne considers this, and tells Hutton a final decision will be made tomorrow.


23 Jan
Agamemnon arrives at Bermuda, and quickly begins recoaling. Her arrival gives Milne three battleships - one short of the four he considers necessary.
Captain Hutton seeks out Milne, and hands him a report he has borrowed from one of his gunners. It is the Journal of the Royal Artillery, specifically a section on the artillery experiments performed against a Martello tower in early 1861.
Milne reads, impressed, and informes Hutton that he has made his decision - he will try one attempt without ironclads, and see how this eventuates.
Hutton is pleased to be vindicated, though admits he may have shot himself in the foot by making it less likely his ship will be used!

24 Jan
Aboukir arrives, and starts taking on as much coal as possible.


25 Jan
Milne sets sail for the Chesapeake. His fleet consists of Hero, Donegal, Agamemnon, Aboukir, Immortalite, Melopmene, Liffey, Spiteful, Rinaldo, Medea, Cygnet and Racer, plus colliers and support vessels, and HMS Terror is left in Bermuda as harbour defence vessel.
Diadem and Landrail will soon arrive in Bermuda, and will be redirected on to join Milne when possible.

26 Jan
HMS Orpheus and HMS Hydra sail into the undefended Saco Bay and drop the railroad bridge across the Saco River, thus isolating Maine and allowing Nova Scotia militia to in future capture the railway west towards the Windsor Corridor.


27 Jan
The HMS Chesapeake stops the Saginaw from leaving Hong Kong. The news of the declaration of war had come in on a steamer from India only a few hours before, and Chesapeake is to stop Saginaw leaving port by any means necessary.
Saginaw has three medium guns on the broadside; Chesapeake has 26. The US ship surrenders.



28 Jan
Dunlop - Sans Pareil, St George, Ariadne, Phaeton, Challenger, Jason, Desperate, Barracouta, Bulldog, Steady - leaves Vera Cruz.

29th
Milne's squadron arrives off the Chesapeake bay. His arrival makes it certain to the USN that the war is not a bluff, and in the face of superior firepower the vessels withdraw to protect the entrance to the Potomac.

30th
Minnesota and HMS Liffey exchange fire at long range. The Minnesota scores four hits with her 9” guns and one hit with her 8” guns, taking in return three 8” shells and two 32-lber hits. The RN shells are slightly more effective due to their better fuzing (with Moorsom fuzes detonating reliably inside the enemy ship, as opposed to the fixed-time Dahlgren fuzes) and larger bursting charges, but at the extreme range (over 2,000 yards) the main damage is to the sidewalls - neither ship has been disabled.
Minnesota withdraws when Hero fires a broadside which comes close to ranging her, throwing a further forty-plus projectiles in a single salvo - the Union vessel is now outweighed in broadside 2:1, and HMS Donegal is also visible moving in.
It is believed the Minnesota was attempting to break out, though this is unclear.
Ironically, this is perhaps the most favourable moment for the US ships to force a confrontation - both Agamemnon and Aboukir are still taking on coal to top up their bunkers - but the combined RN force still has approx. 80 heavy shell guns per broadside in addition to their 32-lbers.
Also on this date, the Monitor is launched.

You have my apologies. I misread your post and conflated it with another I can no longer find. Again my apologies. BTW the HMS Chesapeake was a 51 gun steam frigate completed in 1855.
And your Canadian militia timeline needs severe editing.

In spite of its proud record—or perhaps because of it—the Canadian militia had been allowed to decline into a mere paper force. By law the entire male population between eighteen and sixty was liable for service but the vast majority of these, the sedentary militia, had no existence beyond enrolment. The only active force, the volunteers, received a mere six or twelve days' annual training according to the arm of the service, and of the 5,000 authorized there were only some 4,422 in June 1861 – a "miserable small force! And many of them but ill-trained, unless greatly improved since last year", was Newcastle's comment.[104]

On December 2, at Williams' urging, the Canadian government agreed to raise its active volunteer force to 7,500. The risk of war pushed the number of volunteers to 13,390 by May 1862, although the number of "efficient" volunteers was only 11,940.[107] On December 20, Williams also began training one company of 75 men from each battalion of the Sedentary Militia, about 38,000 men in total, with the intention of raising this to 100,000.[108] Warren describes the Sedentary militia on their initial muster, before arms and equipment were served out to them:

Untrained and undisciplined, they showed up in all manner of dress, with belts of basswood bark and sprigs of green balsam in their hats, carrying an assortment of flintlocks, shotguns, rifles, and scythes. Their officers, prefacing orders with "please", recoiled in horror as formations of the backwoodsmen zigzagged on command to wheel to the left.[109]

By the summer of 1862, long after the crisis had subsided, the available Canadian volunteers numbered 16,000; 10,615 infantry; 1,615 cavalry; 1,687 artillery; 202 volunteer engineers besides new corps not yet accepted into service and the militia.[110

Williams' task in raising, arming and disciplining this army was not dissimilar to the one that the Union and Confederates had faced at the beginning of the Civil War, a year earlier. In the Province of Canada there were 25,000 arms, 10,000 of them smoothbores, and in the Maritimes there were 13,000 rifles and 7,500 smoothbores: though weapons were readily available in England, the difficulty was in transporting them to Canada.[105] 30,000 Enfield rifles were sent on December 6 with the Melbourne, and by February 10, 1862 the Times reported that modern arms and equipment for 105,550 had arrived in Canada along with 20 million cartridges.[106]

But as far as some of your other statements:

1. I don't know where you got your story about wrought iron shot and half charges as it applies to the battle on 8 March 1862. The USS Congress was armed 4 x 8" shell guns and 22 x 32pdr medium weight long guns on her spar deck and 26 x 32pdr heavy long guns on her gun deck. The USN did not produce wrought iron shot for its 32pdr guns. The USS Cumberland was armed with 22 x IX-in Dahlgren shot/shell guns in broadside and a X-in Dahlgren shot/shell gun in pivot aft and a 60pdr Parrott rifle in pivot on forward, all on her gun deck. The USN did not produce wrought iron shot for either the IX or X inch Dahlgrens for the simple reason that by the time such shot could be produced it was obvious that these guns, even at full charge, were unable to deal with even the first generation of Confederate ironclads. The IX inch Dahlgren was retained as a broadside gun because its shell and shot were still effective against wooden ships and fortifications and had a higher rate of fire than the larger Dahlgrens. There is no official or substantiated history of the battle claiming that either ship had wrought iron shot or used half charges in preference to full charges for some reason of economy. I can only think that some memoir or letter written by a participant claimed such a situation because of the ineffectiveness of the fire of both USS Congress and USS Cumberland against CSS Virginia. The fact is, with full charge and even wrought iron shot, the IX-in and X-in Dahlgren would not have penetrated the armor and oak backing of the CSS Virginia's casemate. On 9 March 1862, when USS Monitor engaged the CSS Virginia. During the battle, the USS Monitor used 15lb charges (half charge) in its XI-in Dahlgrens at the direction of the Chief of Ordnance, Dahlgren himself, as the gun had not finished its proofing tests. The Monitor did use wrought iron shot, but did not have cored shot, which would have increased the velocity. The result was to damage but not penetrate the CSS Virginia's casemate. After the battle, the XI-in Dahlgren was cleared for full charges (30lbs), at which, with wrought iron shot, it could penetrate a 4" wrought iron plate and 24" of oak at point blank range. Cored shot, at a higher velocity, would have performed somewhat better. For this reason, the XI-in Dahlgren became the primary pivot gun on US wooden warships, to provide an anti-armor capability. The XI-in gun would have had difficulty penetrating the second generation Confederate and British ironclads with even cored shot, but at the Battle of Mobile Bay, the captain of the USS Chickasaw, a two turret river/coastal monitor with the XI-in gun, up the charge to 50lbs on his own authority, and the cored shot could be seen to nearly penetrate the casemate of the CSS Tennessee. The XI-in gun when proofed to destruction handled 60lb charges without any signs of distress.

2. The Franco-Prussian War is a classic case study of armies misinterpreting the events and outcomes of battles and wars. The French artillery was equipped the La Hitte rifling conversion of the bronze 12pdr light gun-howitzer (NOT smooth-bores) and the mitrailleuse, a mechanical form of machine gun. The Prussians used Krupp steel barrel breech-loading 6pdr in their batteries. When new, the Krupp guns had a slight advantage in rate of fire, maximum range and accuracy. This advantage became more noticeable as the guns were fired for any length of time. As the US found out by 1862, bronze is a poor metal for rifled artillery. It stretches as the pressure of each firing pushes into the metal. After 100 rounds, the rifling could no longer securely grip the projectile and both velocity (as gas passed up the barrel around the projectile) and accuracy suffered. The French adopted the conversion because of its economy in producing rifled artillery quickly and cheaply. Still, neither gun had a recoil mechanism and both used black powder and bag charges, which meant that the rate of fire was similar for both guns. Once battle was joined, both guns were restricted in using their maximum ranges due to masking terrain and black powder clouds. The superiority of the Prussian artillery lay not in its guns but in its organization and use. The French dissipated their artillery power by dispersing their batteries among their formations. The Prussians retained artillery reserves at corps level which allowed them to concentrate guns and fire at critical points. This allowed them to drive off the French artillery and then pound the French infantry, which up to that point had held its own, as Prussian infantry tactics, based on the presumed fire superiority of their Dreyse needle guns, exposed them to the fire of the better French Chassepots. But the real point of the war was the quicker mobilization of larger forces by the Prussians enabled by their staff system and their positioning of their railroads which allowed the Prussians to repeatedly flank French forces which were holding their own tactically at the operational and strategic levels finally forcing the surrender at Sedan. Foreign armies picked up on the use of railroads for mobilization and trained conscripts for larger formations, but saw the use of the Krupp guns as the point of Prussian artillery superiority, not their organization and doctrine. Had the French and Prussians exchanged guns, the Prussians would still have won.

3. I have a very extensive library and access to the Combined Arms Library at Ft. Leavenworth (CG&SC), the Army War College and the Army Center for Military History, along with lending privileges from the libraries at the Pentagon and the USMA. I cannot find one instance where entire battalions were rotated through Hythe before 1878. Until that time, from 1855, a Corps of Instructors, 100 1st class and 100 2d class, were maintained by the School and distributed to the regiments and the regimental depots as required to provide training in marksmanship. If you have a reference that contradicts this, post it. But this system makes sense as the cost of rotating battalions from their garrisons even in England would have been unsupportable.

4. Other than the Guards, the peacetime establishment of a British Army regular infantry regiment of was reduced by retaining the required numbers of officers and NCOs and reducing the numbers of enlisted men to as low as 400 per battalion in garrison in England. Somewhat higher levels of manning were maintained in Ireland, and overseas garrisons, but when a battalion departed for overseas duty, its strength was brought up by recruits and drafts from other regiments/battalions in England/Scotland. The battalions that arrived in Canada after a transit at sea and a movement from Halifax to Montreal, Quebec or even farther to Toronto would have numbers of sick and infirm Soldiers, so that field strength would not exceed 800 men in the deployed companies. Up to 25% of these Soldiers would be new recruits, being trained on the job, which would have been difficult while the battalion was in transit. The standard shoulder arm would be a .577 Enfield rifle-musket or rifle, muzzle loading with a percussion lock. Rate of fire and effective range would be similar to a veteran US or Confederate infantry regiment, no more than 3 rounds per minute, declining as the barrel fouled and the Soldier tired. The maximum effective range at a formed opposing unit on a clear day, with the first volley across open terrain, for those Soldiers recently trained by an Instructor from Hythe, might be as far as 1,000 yards, but more likely 600. A recently recruited US volunteer infantry regiment would have around 800 men and officers after strategic attrition, such as sickness, death or disablement from accident or desertion. The attack would be carried out with two companies forward and skirmishing and eight companies in a two rank line. The skirmishing company, at the least, would have rifles or rifle-muskets. These could be the .54 or .58 M1841 "Mississippi" rifles (over 125,000 still in service as of 31 Jan 62), the .69 M1842 musket rifled between 1856-61 (50,000 in service 31 Jan 62), the .58 M1855 rifle or rifle musket (about 30,000 still in service), the .58 M1861 rifle-musket (Springfield, of which 50,000 had been received by the US Army by 31 Jan 62), the .577 Enfield rifle or rifle-musket (over 300,000 had reached the US by 31 January 1862, bought by the US and state governments, Massachusetts and NY among them, from the British government production, which meant they had interchangeable parts, as the government manufactured Enfield was produced on machinery bought from the US in 1856), or the .54 Lorenz rifle or rifle-musket (over 100,000 imported from Austria by 31 Jan 62). Even in 1864, the New York regiments of the "Irish" Brigade retained the .69 M1842 musket as it produced significant close range firepower with the "buck and ball" cartridge, while the 28th Massachusetts in the brigade carried the .577 Enfield to act as brigade skirmishers. This was because despite the theoretical range achievable by the rifle or rifle-musket with the conical bullet, combat conditions often limited the effective range to under 200 yards. Start with Paddy Griffiths for a re-evaluation of the impact of the rifle on Civil War tactics. The US volunteer infantry regiment would be accompanied by a similar regiment on both flanks. If the British regular battalion maintained its focus on the regiment to its front, it would produce 14,400 rounds for the 6 minutes it would take the US regiment to cross 600 yards. That's 18 rounds per Soldier in the attacking US regiment. Accuracy would increase as range diminished, but even if only 50% of the rounds hit something, it would stop the US regiment before it reached 100 yards. But if the British regular battalion refused its flanks, with 200 men on each flank, the number of bullets produced against the frontal attack falls to 9 per attacker and maybe 4 hits per attacker. The refused flanks are producing 3600 rounds against 800 Soldiers, so 4.5 rounds per attacker and maybe 2 hit each attacker. If the US regiments are armed with rifles and stop and engage in a firefight at 500 yards, they produce at least 2 rounds per minute, so they are sending back down range, 4,800 rounds per minute versus 2,400 from the British. You reduce the hit rate for the US regiments to 25% and they get 600 hits per minute versus 1,200 for the British. In one minute of firing, there would be 200 British regulars left versus 1,200 US volunteers. In the next minute, the British produce 300 hits and the US volunteers produce 250 hits, leaving no British regulars and 900 US volunteers. If only 600 US volunteers are armed with rifles, the first minute would see 1,200 rounds from the US troops in skirmish line and 2,400 from the British in line. If we send skirmishers forward from the British, they would be 100 skirmishers versus 600. If the entire British battalion broke completely down into a skirmish line (which isn't doctrinal, the manual calls for retaining a formed reserve if other formed troops are not available to provide support), we would have 800 British skirmishers against 600 American, which would be 2,400 rounds versus 1,200, both being in open order and using cover, the hit rate falls, so after a minute the British have 680 men left and the US skirmishers are down to 360. Another minute and there are 608 British left and 156 American skirmishers, with the main US line now 300 yards away. Another minute and there are 577 British left and the American skirmishers have been eliminated. But the main line of 1,800 Americans is now 200 yards away. Both sides exchange fire and in a minute later there are 217 British troops left and there are 935 US troops left at 100 yards. One minute later there are no British troops left standing and 610 surviving US troops occupy the defended position, even if only 600 American troops are armed with rifles or rifle-muskets. Certainly the factors can be adjusted, but I gave the British a 100% advantage in hit rate and a 50% advantage in rate of fire. As some Soviet general, or supposedly Lenin or Stalin said, "Quantity has a quality all its own".

5. As far as the Canadian theater, the St. Lawrence River is iced over in winter and navigable by deep water ships only as far as Montreal because of the Lachine Rapids. While the locks built for the Lachine Canal were enlarged to 200' x 44' , they were only 8.9' deep. Even the British armored batteries were to wide in beam and to deep in draft, except HMS Aetna. Smaller wooden steam powered warships below the class of steam gunboats such as the "Britomart" class which drew too much water for the locks. Therefor, both the US and Britain would have to rely on local resources on the Great Lakes. The Rush-Bagot Treaty of 1818 had demilitarized the Great Lakes after they had been a major theater of war in 1812-15. Each country was allowed a single warship with a constrained armament (no more than 100 tons burthen and with 1 x 18pdr gun) and limited military facilities on the Lakes. With the US-British détente that begin with the Monroe Doctrine in 1823, both sides closed and converted the significantly large naval facilities and yards built up during the War. Warships were left on stocks (USS New Orleans, 120 guns) was still on the stocks in 1862), sunk in fresh water for preservation (USS Niagara was one such) or dismantled or sold off, armament and equipment being stored locally. The ships on the stocks could be launched and completed or modified and completed in 3 to 9 months depending on levels of completion and modifications, by which time crews would have been found. Sunken vessels, being sailing ships, might not be worth raising, but they could be modified to steam ships, which would take 6-9 months. Commercial ships could be requisitioned and armed inside 30 days and steam powered paddle and screw gunboats could be completed in 3-4 months. The initial armament would be that in storage, which for both sides, would be muzzle-loading, smooth-bore cast iron guns and carronades. Such guns could be refurbished and remounted on wooden or iron carriages in 30 days or so. They could also be rifled, as could the surplus Army guns and "columbiads" in storage in the Atlantic Coast ports. Such guns would be available by rail or steamship up the Hudson or Lake Champlain in 2-3 weeks for the Americans. Guns for British ships on the Lakes not already in storage would have to come from Halifax by steam ship, barge and rail from Halifax should surplus guns be available there. In the winter, such movement could take 3 weeks. If guns had to come from England by steamship at 6 knots cruising, the trip, in good weather, would take 20 days in transit, should the guns be immediately available in Liverpool, with 2 days to load and 2 days to unload. So a 32pdr gun or a 68pdr could reach Montreal in 26-28 days if everything went right in good weather. With the repeal of the Navigation Acts in 1849 and the introduction of railroads (1,800 miles in 1860), shipbuilding along the Canadian lake shore declined to such a point that most Canadian flag vessels on the lakes were built in the US. Canadian shipbuilding at Halifax and St. Johns, however, grew with trade between Canada and Great Britain, especially the transport of immigrants. Still, it was cheaper to ship and receive imports through the US as the customs duties were imposed at Montreal, which dominated the St. Lawrence river and rail lines to the disadvantage of Upper Canada. There were but three foundries on the Canadian side, as Canada exported wheat and flour to Britain after the repeal of the Corn Laws. While there was plenty of wood and quantities of iron, coal and coke were imported and it would take time to rebuild the yards and expand the foundries. There was no manufacturer of small arms or cannon in Canada or of black powder. On the American side, there were shipyards in Erie, Chicago, Detroit, Buffalo, Cleveland, Toledo and Milwaukee, all able to build wooden steamships and even iron steamships (the single permitted US warship, USS Michigan, had an iron hull). There were foundries both in these cities and in nearby Pittsburg, Akron, Cincinnati, and St. Louis. Iron, coal, coke, wood, steam engines and guns were all available depending on priorities. Canada's population in 1861 was 3,112,169. The population of the states remaining in the Union was bordering Canada and the Lakes was 16,071,275 in 1860. Those same states produced 413, 048 tons of iron products and 805,323 tons of pig iron in the year ending 1 June 1860. The US had more than 1,300 sailing and over 600 steam ships on the lakes, the average length of the steam ships being 160' on the main deck. In 1857, Canadian flagged vessels amounted to 43 steamships and 184 sailing ships and craft.
Bottom line: There was no way that the British could seize control of the Lakes, not in February 1862 or June 1864. With US control of the Lakes, there was no possibility of the British starting and sustaining any invasion of the US from Canada. The US could maintain small forces to man the fortifications of their main ports to protect against raids, but without water transport, there was no way for the British to conduct offensive operations into the US. Even more, with the head waters and Montreal under blockade, all supplies coming from Britain would come down a single track railway from Halifax which was in many places within five miles of US territory, so subject to raids, unless the British garrisoned every mile of track. Once it realized this fact, the US could ignore Canada for the moment and concentrate on suppressing the Southern insurrection, the war at sea (the US did not sign the Treaty of Paris outlawing privateers) and the along the Atlantic and Gulf Coasts.

6. Distance from Liverpool to Halifax - 2,727 miles. Halifax to Montreal - 770 miles
Distance from Boston to Plattsburg - 244 miles, to Montreal - 308 miles
Distance from NYC to Plattsburg - 310 miles, to Buffalo - 374 miles, to Montreal - 371 miles, to Quebec - 517 miles, to Erie - 431 miles, to Toronto - 490 miles
Distance from Buffalo to Montreal - 398 miles, to Kingston - 274 miles, to Toronto - 98 miles
Distance from Erie to Kingston - 361 miles, to Toronto - 194 miles
Distance from Cleveland to Toronto - 290 miles
Distance from Detroit to Toronto -235 miles
Distance from Chicago to Toronto - 520 miles, to Detroit - 282 miles
Distance from Boston to Halifax - 407 miles
Distance from NYC to Halifax - 869 miles, to Kingston, Jamaica - 1,582 miles
Distance from Philadelphia to Erie - 421 miles, to Halifax - 964 miles, to Kingston, Jamaica - 1,523 miles,
Distance from Pittsburg to Erie - 127 miles, to Cleveland - 132 miles, to Buffalo - 214 miles
Distance from Cincinnati to Cleveland - 248 miles, to Detroit - 264 miles
Average speed of a steamship 10 mph
Average speed of a river boat 8 mph
Average speed of a train 20 mph
Average daily movement of a force of 50,000 men - 10-20 miles
Average daily movement of a wagon or siege train - 10 miles
Now consider the time and distance factors for a Canadian theater circa 1862.
 
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Saphroneth

Banned
*As per Army and Navy Gazette 28 June 1862, though a 2x110pdr layout seems more logical. However, as Tartar received only one 110pdr but had previously had two 68pdr pivots, it might have been fairly standard.
I think I know why - it's the poor AP performance of the 110 pdr I suspect to be behind it.
 
You have my apologies. I misread your post and conflated it with another I can no longer find.
Thanks for posting the whole first month of Saph's TL- it'll really help the thread's readability.

1. I don't know where you got your story about wrought iron shot and half charges as it applies to the battle on 8 March 1862.
As was clarified here, it applies to the battle of 9 March 1862.

Still, neither gun had a recoil mechanism and both used black powder and bag charges, which meant that the rate of fire was similar for both guns.
Are you seriously telling us that the Prussians could have done what they did with the 12pdr Napoleon, just so you don't have to admit that British artillery might have been better? That is some serious cognitive dissonance.

3. I have a very extensive library and access to the Combined Arms Library at Ft. Leavenworth (CG&SC), the Army War College and the Army Center for Military History, along with lending privileges from the libraries at the Pentagon and the USMA. I cannot find one instance where entire battalions were rotated through Hythe before 1878.
Do you also expect the US army to rotate entire battalions through the Army War College? What you said was that "The main influence was in training new recruits, given the constraints on training in the battalions in the field". This is patently false. Hythe taught officers, those officers went back to their regiments and taught them musketry. Every year, every soldier in a battalion would shoot a musketry qualification on a local firing range according to army-wide standards. His grade would be recorded, and his battalion would get put in a league table. Not recruits: the whole army.

The only difference between recruits and trained soldiers is that the former gets 110 rounds and the latter 90. They fire the same course, but the recruits get an extra 20 rounds to fire from a rest at the start of their training. If you think that the difference between 110 practice rounds and 90 is significant, but don't think the same about the difference between the 90 rounds that trained British infantry fired every year and the 0 rounds a Union infantryman generally got to practice with, then that's American exceptionalism.

4. Other than the Guards, the peacetime establishment of a British Army regular infantry regiment of was reduced by retaining the required numbers of officers and NCOs and reducing the numbers of enlisted men to as low as 400 per battalion in garrison in England.
Citation please. Infantry battalion establishments as of 1861-2, from an official government source. Not 'well this is from 1875 but it must have been more or less the same'.

The attack would be carried out with two companies forward and skirmishing and eight companies in a two rank line. The skirmishing company, at the least, would have rifles or rifle-muskets.
The following New York regiments were armed wholly with domestic smoothbores in 1861:
1st, 2nd, 4th- 10th, 12th- 17th, 19th-27th, 29th-38th, 40th, 43rd, 47th, 49th, 50th, 51st, 75th, 82nd, and 86th.
Find out when they were reissued with rifles, then see if those rifles were imported from Europe and wouldn't be available in a Trent War.

Smaller wooden steam powered warships below the class of steam gunboats such as the "Britomart" class which drew too much water for the locks. Therefor, both the US and Britain would have to rely on local resources on the Great Lakes.
Here is a picture of the Britomart-class HMS Cherub on Lake Huron. How did it get there?

6. Distance from Liverpool to Halifax - 2,727 miles. Halifax to Montreal - 770 miles...
Average speed of a steamship 10 mph...
Average speed of a train 20 mph
2727 miles divided by 240 miles per day = 11.36 days
300 miles overland march = 10 days
470 miles train to Montreal at 480 miles a day = 0.979 days.
Total = 22.339 days.
What happened to:

The Yeomanry and Volunteers were 45 days away, at a minimum, given winter weather, just addressing time in transit.
 
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Saphroneth

Banned
And your Canadian militia timeline needs severe editing.

By the summer of 1862, long after the crisis had subsided, the available Canadian volunteers numbered 16,000

Your posts support my timeline! You note the calling out of 38,000 militia was planned - what you miss is that the callout was cancelled when the US backed down. You want the British to keep mobilizing for six months after the US climbdown - by that logic we can use the US force size after demobilization to judge their maximum deployment.

In case you've not noticed, the difference between a militia callout (which is what I mean by the 38,000) and volunteers is that volunteers volunteer and the militia can be compelled to serve; but since it's expensive to mobilize nearly 40,000 militia without need, the Canadians cancelled the callout.


On 9 March 1862, when USS Monitor engaged the CSS Virginia. During the battle, the USS Monitor used 15lb charges (half charge) in its XI-in Dahlgrens at the direction of the Chief of Ordnance, Dahlgren himself, as the gun had not finished its proofing tests. The Monitor did use wrought iron shot, but did not have cored shot, which would have increased the velocity. The result was to damage but not penetrate the CSS Virginia's casemate.

The XI inch gun had 15 lbs as the authorized charge for all except battering fire:

US+Service+Charges.bmp



15 lbs is not half-charge. It's ordinary.(This chart is from 1864 or later - in 1862 the only authorized charge was 15 lbs. Dahlgren later claimed 30 lbs, but the USN only authorized 20 lbs and that in 1864.)
In any case, it would be frankly ridiculous for the XI" Dahlgren to not be through proofing given that it was first cast in 1856 and given that the guns loaded into Monitor were the ones that had previously been in Dacotah.

In any case, if 15 lbs is the half charge then the crew of Monitor are not willing to risk their ship to defeat the enemy.

As for the use of wrought iron shot, do you have a citation to that effect? My source suggests that they were not fired for fear of bursting the guns.


The French artillery was equipped the La Hitte rifling conversion of the bronze 12pdr light gun-howitzer (NOT smooth-bores)

Yes, the French guns were superior to smoothbores on account of their rifling. And yet the Prussians outshot them, including achieving counterbattery fire - you may claim it's because they used them differently, and that may be part of it, but since the Prussian guns also destroyed the French positions (which would have stopped the French guns) then it's hard to argue that the Prussians would have won with French bronze guns.

the .577 Enfield rifle or rifle-musket (over 300,000 had reached the US by 31 January 1862, bought by the US and state governments, Massachusetts and NY among them, from the British government production, which meant they had interchangeable parts, as the government manufactured Enfield was produced on machinery bought from the US in 1856)
Citation needed for the 300,000 figure - the OR
http://ebooks.library.cornell.edu/c...rameset;view=image;seq=867;page=root;size=100
shows 116,000 Enfields acquired by 30 June 1862.


Start with Paddy Griffiths for a re-evaluation of the impact of the rifle on Civil War tactics.
The main point he makes is that the US didn't actually train to use their rifles - the British did. As did the French and the Prussians, which is why I asked you to explain the whole Franco-Prussian War because firefights in that war were certainly not limited to a hundred yards or so.

The US volunteer infantry regiment would be accompanied by a similar regiment on both flanks. If the British regular battalion maintained its focus on the regiment to its front, it would produce 14,400 rounds for the 6 minutes it would take the US regiment to cross 600 yards. That's 18 rounds per Soldier in the attacking US regiment. Accuracy would increase as range diminished, but even if only 50% of the rounds hit something, it would stop the US regiment before it reached 100 yards. But if the British regular battalion refused its flanks, with 200 men on each flank, the number of bullets produced against the frontal attack falls to 9 per attacker and maybe 4 hits per attacker.

Sorry, but you seem to assume that four bullets hitting every man is not going to stop them?
Wouldn't happen anyway. I'd say 6% hit rate for British regulars would be pretty accurate, by the way - it's about what they got at Inkerman and the Alma.

If the US regiments are armed with rifles and stop and engage in a firefight at 500 yards, they produce at least 2 rounds per minute, so they are sending back down range, 4,800 rounds per minute versus 2,400 from the British. You reduce the hit rate for the US regiments to 25% and they get 600 hits per minute versus 1,200 for the British.

Most US regiments couldn't hit anything at 500 yards - especially not the large majority armed with smoothbores in Jan 1862. Indeed, a hit rate below 1% would not be surprising for the US troops (e.g. at Gettysburg). Thus your entire numerical argument falls apart - it assumes US troops hit half as often as British regulars, when 1/6 as often would not be surprising at 100 yards and at 500 yards the ratio would be near infinite. (Don't agree? Data, please - my source is the Battle of Antietam, where the Confederate gunners only suffer from "sharpshooter" fire within 100 yards and can fire at 200 yards with impunity.)
Using 1% for Union and 6% for British...

As such, with two British companies firing at each attacking regiment at 500 yards, the Federals take about ~24 casualties per regiment per volley and the British take nought. If the Federals close to 100 yards and open fire, then in addition to the casualties they suffered when closing (which could be about a dozen or so volleys) then each regiment inflicts ~8 casualties per volley (if uninjured) and the British inflict ~24 per regiment in turn.
Three Union regiments of 600 men each would be cut down to about 360 each by the time they closed through ten volleys. They would then inflict an average of 3-4 casualties per volley, and continue to take about 24 per volley in turn for each regiment - thus they're taking six times the casualties in absolute terms.
Three Union regiments of 800 men each would be cut down to about 560 each by the time they closed through ten volleys. They would then inflict an average of 5-6 casualties per volley, and continue to take about 24 per volley in turn for each regiment - thus they're taking four times the casualties in absolute terms.
This is the point I'm making - the sheer potency of the British rifle fire means that two companies of theirs inflict greater than even casualties on an enemy regiment - both absolutely and in proportion.
This is why they trained so much. Though I can understand why you think so little of the British and so much of the Union, if you think the difference between a completely untrained rifleman and a fully trained one at 500 yards is the difference between 25% accuracy and 50%... though it does rather beg the question as to why there were two million bullets fired at Gettysburg without depopulating Pennsylvania.

It's also why it's quite likely the British would actually stop the Union before they even reached firefight range - attacks in America had a problem of losing momentum, often after far lighter casualties than each of the three hypothetical regiments here is taking... and note that in both simulations I've only used 600 British infantry, so the other 400 can move as reserves to support whichever wing is underperforming these simulations.

Certainly the factors can be adjusted, but I gave the British a 100% advantage in hit rate and a 50% advantage in rate of fire. As some Soviet general, or supposedly Lenin or Stalin said, "Quantity has a quality all its own".

Yes, this is the problem - you're significantly underrating the British. They had 6-12 times the accuracy and about five times the range (citations: Inkerman and the Alma versus Antietam and Gettysburg).




Smaller wooden steam powered warships below the class of steam gunboats such as the "Britomart" class which drew too much water for the locks. Therefor, both the US and Britain would have to rely on local resources on the Great Lakes.

Vessels that are fast enough can shoot the rapids - and a lot of gunboats were. A large fraction of the British gunboats can climb to the lakes that way. Your argument here falls apart too, as Cerebro has shown.

Bottom line: There was no way that the British could seize control of the Lakes, not in February 1862 or June 1864.

As noted, the British can surge gunboats onto the lake at any time after the thaw. They can't sieze control in Feb 1862 because it's an ice rink, but May 1862 is another matter.

Average speed of a steamship 10 mph

Distance from Liverpool to Halifax - 2,727 miles

Time taken for transit under this logic = 272 hours = 11.5 days. A bit over the average for transports in Trent, at least those who didn't hit a storm... but a far cry from a month.



Please format your posts better, and in addition perhaps answer the question about overseas US squadrons.


Thanks for posting the whole first month of Saph's TL- it'll really help the thread's readability.

It's barely even a free advert - no link!




BTW the HMS Chesapeake was a 51 gun steam frigate completed in 1855.

Yes, I'm aware of that - I say that Chesapeake has 26 guns on the broadside. This is her 25 port side guns, plus her pivot. (If I were describing her entire armanent I would just say she was a 51, or that she had 51 guns aboard, or the like.)

I'm.. not sure why you're telling me this, as if I got it wrong.
 
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RobCraufurd actually neatly summarised the Hythe system and provided the annual scores of some sample battalions from 1861 in case anyone is interested

Wrapped In Flames(Where is explained the Hythe scoring system)

Would the figures from the Annual Report for the Inspector-General of Musketry for 1859 help? Just to explain, the Hythe system sorts soldiers out into three classes. You start in the third class, shooting at targets from 150 to 300 yards, and you have to achieve a certain number of points in the third class before you pass into the second where you shoot at targets from 400 yards to 600 yards. And yes, that does mean that the average range of a Civil War firefight (141 yards, per Paddy Griffith) was shorter than the range at which British soldiers started practicing.

Third Class
150 yards- 85.60%
200 yards- 72.91%
250 yards- 60.32%
300 yards- 55.87%

Second Class
400 yards- 65.12%
500 yards- 55.60%
550 yards- 46.67%
600 yards- 47.73%

First class
650 yards- 53.79%
700 yards- 60.07%
800 yards- 32.40%
900 yards- 23.56%

Based on these figures, your numbers seem about right: they also match the results of a trial held in 1855, in which skirmishers firing at a thirty-file column between 820 and 550 yards achieved a 34% hit rate. More numbers about musketry, while I'm here: The proportion of first class shots in a battalion ranged in 1861 from 63% (2nd Battalion, Coldstream Guards) to 5% (32nd Foot); 3,636 men achieved the marksman badge in 1860, from which we can conclude that c.36,000 men shot the course that year.

Note the above is RobCraufurd's hard work note my own, I have merely republished it here for ease of useage


Wrapped In Flames (being a good place to find out how well some British battalions actually did)

If it'll help, here are the 1861 musketry scores for some units relevant to the timeline. I feel sorry for the Excelsior brigade- 1/60th must have been having a better day than usual!

1. 2nd Battalion, Scots Fusilier Guards- 49.42 figure of merit, 56% first class shots
2. 1st Battalion, Grenadier Guards- 49.13, 61%
3. 2nd Battalion, 20th Foot- 48.19, 41%
5. 55th Foot- 47.79, 55%
7. 1st Battalion, Coldstream Guards- 47.72, 53%
11. 1st Battalion, 11th Foot- 46.30, 41%
12. 2nd Battalion, 19th Foot- 46.29, 46%
13. 47th Foot- 45.95, 43%
16. 63rd Foot- 44.93, 39%
21. 32nd Foot- 43.26, 35%
25. 96th Foot- 42.47, 39%
26. 30th Foot- 42.41, 45%
27. 1st Battalion, 16th Foot- 42.35, 36%
28. 1st Battalion, Rifle Brigade- 42.06, 38%
29. 1st Battalion, 15th Foot- 42.01, 34%
40. 84th Foot- 40.70, 24%
45. 2nd Battalion, 17th Foot- 40.36, 42%
46. 1st Battalion, 60th Rifles- 40.32, 25%
50. 4th Battalion, 60th Rifles- 39.76, 27%
64. 2nd Battalion, 16th Foot- 37.22, 27%
69. 1st Battalion, 17th Foot- 34.81, 56%
71. 32nd Foot- 34.48, 5% [see also no.21; I would have demanded a recount if I were them]
77. Royal Canadian Rifles- 30.38, 9.5%
79. Royal Newfoundland Companies- 28.51, 3%

Those who are interested how the figure of merit was arrived at can continue reading; those who couldn't care less can take the official rule of thumb, which was that 40+ was acceptable; 30-40 was "needs work" (or in the language of the time, "affords evidence of a deficiency in some quarter which calls for increased exertion on the part of all concerned in the efficiency of the troops") and less than 30 was "bad".

Each target is 6ft x 2ft with a 2ft diameter outer and an 8in diameter bull. Multiple targets were placed together, except for skirmishing where they were placed six paces apart. There were four components to the score:
"First Period": 5 rounds each at 150, 200, 250 and 300 yards, at two targets. 1 point for a hit, 2 points for a centre, 3 points for a bull.
File firing: 10 soldiers maximum, firing ten rounds at 300 yards at eight targets. 1 point for a hit, 2 points for a centre, 3 points for a bull; squad average to be taken.
Volley firing: 10 soldiers maximum, firing ten rounds at 400 yards at eight targets. 1 point for a hit, 2 points for a centre or bull; squad average to be taken.
Skirmishing: Firing ten rounds, advancing and retiring between 400 and 200 yards (judging distance and adjusting sights as they go) at eight targets per file. 1 point for a hit, 2 points for a centre or bull; file average to be taken.

The total possible was 130 (60+30+20+20); the best score I've found was 65.60 by five sergeants of the 22nd Depot Battalion at Stirling (29.4+13.2+13.2+9.8; 86.6% hits). The 1859 average score apparently broke down as 18.36+10.74+9.89+5.46=44.45, which gives you an indication of how accurate the average British infantry battalion might have been when volley or file firing at 300 yards.

If you made it to the end, congratulations! You can now rest assured that, if transported back to the early 1860s and made the guest of honour at a musketry competition, you know whether to praise or admonish the participants in your speech.

And again RobCraufurd's work reposted here as some are allergic to links. Worth pointing out though it is rewarding going to the original posts as there is a bit more detail and some fun links. in the first.
 
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Saphroneth

Banned
In addition to the above, one of the few examples of target practice like statistics we have from the Union was when a patrol of forty men literally fired at the broad side of a barn (100 yards away) for a lark. Of these, they got four hits - only one of which was within the height of an infantryman.

If we take this admittedly impromptu trial where the Union men achieved a 2.5% hit rate in target shooting conditions at 100 yards (n.b. better figures appreciated!) and compare it to where the British achieved a 34% hit rate on a similarly broad target at 500+ yards, we can see that giving the British a 2:1 advantage in hit rate seems substantially under what the actual case was. This is why training is so important.
 
As for the use of wrought iron shot, do you have a citation to that effect? My source suggests that they were not fired for fear of bursting the guns.
'We fired nothing but solid cast-iron shot' (Chief Engineer Alban C. Stimers, Ironclad Monitor, 17 March 1862)
'In answer to your enquiry I have to report that the Monitor expended forty-one solid cast-iron shot in her engagement with the Merrimack, equally divided between guns 27 and 28... The wrought-iron shot I shall send on shore to remove the temptation to fire them.' (Lieutenant William N. Jeffers, commanding US Cased Battery Monitor, 16 March 1862)

Books and libraries are great, but there's no substitute for actually knowing how to find information.
 
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