The Mongols Conquer Most of Europe.......

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by Malta, Nov 19, 2007.

  1. Malta Kirked

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    ......what next?

    As you can see from the map The Black is the extent of the Mongol Empire around the time of Ogadai's death. The Grey portion of the map the proposed extent of Mongolian conquest within a few years. Around the 1240's

    [​IMG]

    Now taking a look at this proposed map and scenario, the Mongolians have a few options here.
    But first lets review Europe so far. Pretty much under Mongolian conquest the whole thought that could have been the Re-Birth of culture, wiped out as cities from Moscow to Rome to Antwerp and Paris, all the way to the Pyrenees has been leveled, what survives of the European population in these areas crushed under the book of the Mongol Yoke, living in small scattered villages and towns, in ever fear.

    So taking a look at the map, the Mongols have a few options here.

    1:They could go South into the Balkans, crushing the various Serbian-Bulgar Kingdoms. Then going on to take Constantinople. Maybe even linking up across the Anatolia?
    Or could they have? The terrain of the Balkans could have worked against the Mongols possibly aided the Serbian-Bulgars Kingdoms, and could the Mongols have taken one of the greatest cities in history?

    2:They go south of the Tiber river and into southern Italy, crushing
    Hohenstaufen rule in southern Italy to the boot tip? Hoping over into Sicily?

    3:Crossing the Pyrenees would they have crushed the various Spanish Christian States and moved on to Granada, making the Mongolian Empire strech, from the Pacific to the Atlantic, the longest empire that history would ever know. Or could the Spanish Kingdoms united? Maybe even Granada could have helped and somehow tried to stop the Mongols at the Pyrenees.

    4:Invading England, would they? Would Edward (Longshank's) relationship have paid off and spared the Isles from conquest? Maybe making them a simple ally-vassal and saving England as the last bastion of the European culture? If they had would England be saved from the Mongols, much similarly in a fashion that Japan was saved, or how England would later be saved from the Spanish Armada? If not, how would they have faired fighting up to the Scotlands? Would the Welsh, Scots, and others have allied with he Mongols to backstab everyone else? Would they have bothered with Ireland? Or Scandinavia?

    5:How while all this was happing, would Islamic Middle East and North Africa have viewed all of this? After seeing the easy destruction of Europe would they have united to face off against the Mongols? (Specially after the fall of Baghdad in mind). Would they have instead simply fell upon with full force onto the Crusader States? Would these states have recieved a influx of population, refugees escaping Europe. After Consolidating over Europe would the Mongols (Presuming they had not broken up) have crossed into the Middle East more sucessfully? From the Anatolia or from the Iberia?
     
  2. Mars Well-Known Member

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    The same thing that happened in OTL would happen here i would think. Eventually the mongols would split up into various successor kingdoms and fight amongst themselves. The khanate of Europe would eventually break up into independent European kingdoms again. It would be interesting to see the response of the rest of the west. Maybe crusades would be mounted against the mongols. Maybe the mongols in europe would convert to Christianity. Maybe the west would adopt more mongolian style tactics afterwards. Who knows.
     
  3. Malta Kirked

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    Though by the point of the map, who would be strong enough to launch crusades? Unless of course the Pope managed to flee, (Unless the Mongols hadn't put him in a carpet like they did the Caliph). somewhere else, maybe the Crusader States, but would they have been strong enough to launch a crusade? Specially with the Islamic States breathing down their necks.
     
  4. Elidor Well-Known Member

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    It will be interesting when the Mongol Khanate breaks up. If the Mongols do a good job of destroying the pre-invasion order, Europe's border will be redrawn. The HRE will probably be cease to exist, speeding up formation of Nation-states.

    Or The Mongols can claim to be The Holy Roman Emperors themselves, and have a caste system with a mongolian-born nobles ruling over Europeans. Even after a mongol break-up/overthrow, European rulers might try to claim to be Genghis' decedents.
     
  5. NapoleonXIV Banned

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    We've looked at this before. It's doubtful the Mongols could have gotten very far into Germany. For all their vaunted invinciblity it took the Mongols decades to conquer Southern China because they had to get off their horses and take broken land and this was close to home base. In Europe they were heavily overextended as well and they knew it. I think they were glad to go home and there was good reason they never returned in force.
     
  6. Dave Howery laughs at your pain

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    the Mongols could probably have ridden through and devastated that area... but hold it as part of the empire? I think not... too far away from their center, too rough terrain, too many small castles to take down.

    None of which means they couldn't have gone where they pleased and killed and looted wherever they wished... the Europeans proved time and again that they couldn't stand up to them in open battle. The warlords might have forted up in their various castles, but that wouldn't win them the war....
     
  7. Mars Well-Known Member

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    The Mongols could have taken parts of eastern europe, like the huns did by settling on the hungarian plains, there is pasture there for their horses - though definitely not as much as in the steppes, so yeah, their cavalry force will be sufficiently smaller. Still, it think it is possible for them to control at least eastern Europe. France and the HRE are a different matter, could they have done it? Im sure it as possible, they had the siege technology and manpower. But it probably would have been a daunting task. It would make for an interesting TL though. Very interesting. :rolleyes:
     
  8. woodlin Member

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    yet the Mongolian empire collapased in less than 2 decades.it was impossible for them to go further west.how can they rule the vast land of china where rebellions came in a row while their own population kept falling after years of war.the total population of Mongolians at that time was no more than a million. it was already a miracle that they conquered from west pacific to east europe.france? a dream
     
  9. Malta Kirked

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    Thats why they use their most powerful weapon of all: Fear.

    Fear, more like a promise, if you rebel we will come to you anmd put your head onto a spike. By now, Europe is still reeling from it's utter crushing, which I think would be more complete in Europe, as it was just a emerging civilization, it didn't have the long noble sophisticated history of China. It was divided and semi-barbarian at this time period. Pretty much everywhere the population is scattered into backward villages living in fear and uncapable of organizing.

    Also the Mongols would use a few to govern, as they did in Russia. But the breakup is inevitable, it would happen after Europe's flame sputtered and died.
     
  10. Hannibal.Caesar Well-Known Member

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    Debates about the Empire aside, I can't see the Mongols leaving Denmark totally alone while conquering the rest of Europe.
     
  11. The Sicilian I'm Not Dead Yet, Bastards

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    Was there a whole lot in Europe that the Mongols would find appealing? More so that the riches of the ME, India and SE Asia?
     
  12. panzerjay Lord of Subversive Armaments

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    IHMO, in time the mongols would become christenize and then the whole "heartland" would be too. if they dont smash things up too much
     
  13. Ridwan Asher Jungle Arab

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    Don't think the "whole heartland" part is likely though....
     
  14. Umbral Member

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    This is an interesting subject. I started a "Norse in north america" TL, where this invasion caused a large Norwegian/Scandinavian migration to Vinland. Which suddenly looked a bit more enticing when the Mongols seemed set to kill everyone in europe.

    It got put on the back burner when I realized what an enormous amount of work it would be to just get an accurate idea of what happened in europe in the meantime.

    I also agreee that the southern portion of Denmark at least got off too lightly. Alps might have held out.


    I would have thought there would be a couple of cities that surrendered without combat. At least the first would probably get good terms. Its the sort of thing a sensible conqueror wants to encourage, after all.

    They would be mongol-dominated, of course.

    The Mongols had a poor history of seabourne invasions. If they did manage to cross the channel, I could see them taking England, leaving Scotland and Wales.

    However, I think the last bastion of european culture would be Norway. At the time, we had our maximum size on, and was well governed by one of the most competent Kings in pre-modern history, Håkon IV. Covering Iceland and Greenland, the combination of sea, navy, forests, mountains and winters would probably be too much for the Mongols. A sensible change of capital city would probably suffice to keep the Mongols at bay.

    Not sure how Sweden was doing at the time, but I can't see the Mongols easily getting to them without both naval and forest crossings.

    I was planning to have the Mali become more involved in mediterranean trade, and "enter play" from there.
     
  15. Mars Well-Known Member

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    IMO the most important thing that is going to determine what land the mongols conquer is geography. Look at the area surrounding a specific place, if that area has wide espanses of grassland, then the mongols are surely to conquer it. If its mountainous and heavily forested, they are not. They would definetly settle in the hungarian plain as the huns, avars and alans did year before. I doubt they would conquer the central, mountainous areas in northern italy and switzerland. Besides, why do they want europe? The middle east is richer at this time - why not go after that? You have to explain not just how they would win in this rough terrain unsuitable for horse archer nomadic warfare, but why they decide to ignore the richer lands in egypt and go for europe. One reason could be that there is a different mongol Khanate controlling egypt already or blocking their path to it. As to how they are going to feed thousands upon thousands of steppe horses on the lands of europe (remember mongol horses lived off the land, they did not have a train of horse food supplying them), you're on your own.
     
  16. WhatIsAUserName Professional Catatonic

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    Mongols weren't invincible, of course, but you have to look at all the facts. It took the Mongols decades because China, under the Song, comprised one of the most powerful states in the world at the time. If the Mongols were the world's most powerful empire at the time, Song China would have taken second place. Southern China at this time was a disorderly mess with some of the worst political leadership in the world, and but it was strong enough that it managed to hold out relatively long (oftentimes held inexplicably together by luck, to be honest).

    Europe, at this time, was weaker, divided, and (IIRC) less technologically advanced. Of course, in Europe, the Mongols would be overextended, but I think that this isn't as significant a problem as it never hindered the conquests of Persia, Russia, etc.

    After Ogadei's death, the Mongol Empire already started to splinter, which is a key reason why they didn't just go forth and invade Europe.
     
  17. Tyr air in space

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    I'd agree they wouldn't get far due to all the forests and castles.
    Even Poland has a lot of these...They could probally destroy Poland but permanently conquer it? The HRE would probally challenge them once they've suffered their first big losses.

    The suggestion they would head to the middle east does suggest something else- they start attacking eastern Europe but then are drawn in towards Constantinople.
     
  18. Malta Kirked

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    1:Aye, i saw that TL, I liked where it was going I hope you can get things up and going again.

    2: They would allow any surrendered cities' inhabitants to leave safely, but then pretty much burn the place to the ground. Like with that saying, that a year after the Mongolians conquered a city, you could drive a horse over the spot smoothly (At least I do think for Ghengis in cases).

    3:Well the whole question of Mongols invading comes from that Edward the 1 had a alliance with one of the Khanates. So maybe he could get England off better when facing them at his doorstep.


    Edit:Well if not totally conquer Europe they could the least have a lot of free reign in it. They go in pretty much put a torch to everything and tear down a lot of the major cities (They had engineers from China to destroy the castles with gunpowder! Thats how they did things back east, bringing gunpowder in earlier), their are areas in Europe proper that the Mongols with their steppe horses could settle down pretty well, along the Po River maybe.
    The overall fact is that they have pretty much wreaked Europe, and with sacking cities like the North Roman cities and Paris and such, they have either delayed or ruined the Reniassance.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2007
  19. The Sicilian I'm Not Dead Yet, Bastards

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    You need a cause before people start rampaging across Europe.
     
  20. Malta Kirked

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    Ogedei lasted longer, he already had plans on invading Western Europe in OTL. Subutai's attacks on Hungary and Poland were crushing in OTL, if you can take a easy target, why not?

    Also, it was after the Mongolian invasion ended OTL that stone castles were widely built.