Yes, but complete Japanese domination of the Panama canal and any territory remotely useful in protecting or invading it does make sense in a "Risk" or HOI sort of way. That way, what remains of the USA (no doubt pissed as hell) is no longer a significant Pacific threat no matter how big its navy becomes. Actually, it would make more sense for the Japanese to take over central america, all the pacific islands and let the US keep Alaska and Washington.
The Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere...what was it really supposed to be like?
- Thread starter Chris S
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Yes, but complete Japanese domination of the Panama canal and any territory remotely useful in protecting or invading it does make sense in a "Risk" or HOI sort of way. That way, what remains of the USA (no doubt pissed as hell) is no longer a significant Pacific threat no matter how big its navy becomes. Actually, it would make more sense for the Japanese to take over central america, all the pacific islands and let the US keep Alaska and Washington.
Amen. D:
Even if by some batshit insane series of events, and the US and Canada is forced to cede Alaska, Washington, Hawaii, and British Columbia, let alone waching a map of the Caribbean and central America turn yellow, I think the Japanese will be able to hold onto them for...about five minutes.
Teleology
Banned
If everything had gone right for the Japanese at Pearl Harbor AND they were somehow able to take the Panama Canal, how long would it take for a significant fleet to be assembled and sent around Cape Horn (if we assume the Europe First policy is still established to take up some of the Atlantic Fleet)?
Anyways, the idea of the Nazis supporting the Hindu Caste system of India seems interesting. If they took the view that the Persians are at least partially Aryan, even with their whole ridiculous Teutonic Aryan BS, than it would stand that the upper castes of India are partially Aryan, being of Iranic descent. Nazi-backed Iran dominating Middle East, Nazi-backed Caste aristocracy in India?
Or you get the Japanese inspiring a revolt in India, in which case the Indians might just be an ally, seen as a junior partner but one that the Japanese would not be able to outright sattletize or colonize. Of course if they, by being too big for the Japanese to oppress, begin to buy into the whole "Asia for the Asians" propaganda, by the time India goes from just too powerful to be colonized to more powerful than Japan (60's? later?) you might see them take up the banner of the Co-Prosperity Sphere and try their hand at being the benevolent dictators of Asia for Asia's own good, with Japan becoming the isolationist junior partner too powerful to be colonized.
Anyways, the idea of the Nazis supporting the Hindu Caste system of India seems interesting. If they took the view that the Persians are at least partially Aryan, even with their whole ridiculous Teutonic Aryan BS, than it would stand that the upper castes of India are partially Aryan, being of Iranic descent. Nazi-backed Iran dominating Middle East, Nazi-backed Caste aristocracy in India?
Or you get the Japanese inspiring a revolt in India, in which case the Indians might just be an ally, seen as a junior partner but one that the Japanese would not be able to outright sattletize or colonize. Of course if they, by being too big for the Japanese to oppress, begin to buy into the whole "Asia for the Asians" propaganda, by the time India goes from just too powerful to be colonized to more powerful than Japan (60's? later?) you might see them take up the banner of the Co-Prosperity Sphere and try their hand at being the benevolent dictators of Asia for Asia's own good, with Japan becoming the isolationist junior partner too powerful to be colonized.
On page 262, second image in my "Collins Atlas of World History" Northern Chinese puppet state out of Chahar, Shuiyuan, Shansi, and Shantung. I think the Philippines were also supposed to be a puppet government and wasn't there something about Madagascar?
Never to be blunt.
I'm sorry I misread your post. I thought you asked how long it would take the Japanese to build a fleet and send it around Cape Horn. Must be getting tired.
Anyway I don't see the Japanese being able to reach Panama, let alone occupy it as Hawaii alone would be almost impossible to take. But ignoring that then I think the US would try to take Panama back rather than go all away around the continents to go through a reasonably dangerous passage.
Yes, I recall seeing something to that effect in one of those online military atlases. I think the idea though got superseded by the implementation of Mengjiang which included Chahar and Shuiyuan.
I suppose rather like Hitler and the Nazis vision of what they wanted for Europe, the Japanese planes for Greater East Asia changed somewhat substantially as the war progressed as well.
Well, they did set up a puppet Republic in the Philippines during the occupation and there are references to plans for such a republic, but then there is the mention of the Philippines being part of a "Government-General of Formosa"....maybe that changed with the course of the war as well...
I'm sure there was, but it may have been more Allied fears and German hopes than any concrete plans by the Japanese, at least in relation to the GEACoPS.
Keenir
Banned
o-kay, so now we've seen the "too ASB for ASBs" map of the Co-Prosperity Sphere....whats a more realistic map of it look like?
given the Nazi belief in things like Atlantis (which, back then, was a supercontinent where true humans come frm)...they'd run into a wall with the Tamils, who also believe they are the descendants of the survivors of a supercontinent where true humans come from.
given the Nazi belief in things like Atlantis (which, back then, was a supercontinent where true humans come frm)...they'd run into a wall with the Tamils, who also believe they are the descendants of the survivors of a supercontinent where true humans come from.
Keenir
Banned
the only reference I've ever seen to Japan attacking Panama, was when they were building a super-submarine, and they sailed it out to Panama -- whereupon Americans took it over.
Well, for that one would need information. Apart from what has been given by about 4 or 5 posters there hasn't been any more info posted on here (unfortunately) to show what a realistic map would look like. If you happen to have any info though or recall any links about the Japanese Empire in the Pacific and the aims during the war, etc. then please post them.
That would make for some interesting encounters wouldn't it? Doubt it would shake the irrational Nazi belief system to the core, but it might give it a bit of jitters...
Keenir
Banned
if I had such info/links, rest assured I'd share them here.
as I don't, I'm asking here.
I suggest the book Supercontinent for further info.
Ah well, thanks.
I would have to guess though that a realistic map would have to be based on Japan winning a negotiated end to the war as it was in OTL or Japan doing things differently in 1941 such as taking the chance that their move into the East Indies wouldn't necessarily get the US involved and hence no need to attack American possessions.
In the former scenario, I would conservatively guess we would seem something like this:
Japanese-governed
Empire of Japan
-Japanese Home Islands including the Ryuku Islands, Southern Sakhalin, and the Kuril Islands, as well as Korea.
Kwantung Leased Territory
-Southern part of the Liaodong Peninsula.
Government-General of Formosa
-Formosa (Taiwan), Hong Kong, Macau (to be purchased from Portugal), the Paracel Islands, Hainan Island (to be purchased from the Chinese puppet regime).
South Seas Government Office
-Guam, Nauru, Ocean Island, the Gilbert Islands and Wake. And probably the Mandate territory including the Marianas, Carolines and Marshall Islands.
Melanesian Region Government-General or South Pacific Government-General
-British New Guinea, Australian New Guinea, the Admiralties, New Britain, New Ireland, the Solomon Islands, the Santa Cruz Archipelago, the Ellice Islands, and maybe the Fiji Islands, the New Hebrides, New Caledonia, the Loyalty Islands, and the Chesterfield Islands.
East Indies Government-General?
-Singapore, Dutch East Indies (minus Java), British Borneo, Labuan, Sarawak, Brunei, the Cocos and Christmas Islands, the Andaman and Nicobar Islands, and Portuguese Timor (to be purchased).
Siberia Government-General?
-(former?) USSR up to the dividing line with Germans? Depending on how the war ends. Could be that Germany and the USSR end up negotiating a peace somehow and then Japan gets to kickstart negotiations on ending the war in the Pacific through the USSR as an intermediary? In that case there may not be any involvement in the USSR.
Japanese-puppetized States
Manchukuo
-Chinese Manchuria.
Mengjiang
-Inner Mongolia territories west of Manchuria and maybe Outer Mongolia
Republic of China
-maybe if Japan approaches Chiang suspecting he's more concerned about the communists than the Japanese and say "let's make a deal...".
Republic of the Philippines
-the Philippines
East Indies Kingdom/Kingdom of Java
-Java (the Japanese seemed to foster Indonesian nationalism more on Java and less on the other islands, so maybe they would create a puppet Java state based on the promise that in the future Java would form the basis of an Indonesia state from Japan's East Indies holdings (and maybe through unification with Mahamalaya)?)
Kingdom of Burma
-Burma proper (minus the parts annexed to Thailand).
Kingdom of Thailand
-Pre-war Thailand, also expanded with portions of British Malaya, Burma, and French Indochina during the war.
Kingdom of Mahamalaya
-Remainder of the Malay states plus Sumatra.
Kingdom of Cambodia
-Cambodia.
Empire of Vietnam
-Annam, Cochinchina and Tongking.
Kingdom of Laos
-Laos
Thanks. What's the name of the author though?
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Keenir
Banned
*looks at this*
that's conservative?
I suspect New Guinea would be even worse than China for the Japanese to run.
if its a negotiated end, why does Japan want Hawaii? (or why would the US hand it over?...what does the US get in return?)
Ted Nield
Why?
The majority of the relatively small population would have been peopple living in Tribal societies, a far cry from the tens of millions of Chinese living in a modern (at the time) society.
*looks at this*
that's conservative?
Well it was based off what they actually controlled in OTL, more or less. Excepting the Eastern Pacific Government-General. I meant to remove that when copying the list from the first page.
No that was a mistake.
Double thanks.
Okay, ignoring the ASB military situation that would lead them to even get Siberia from the Soviets, would it be politically ASB for Japan to create a puppet White Russia based in the Russian Far East? They could even import Kerensky and have him lord it over there!
Keenir
Banned
there's a saying about how strange it is that a plot of land as small as New Guinea, has such a high percentage of the world's languages.
(in Occupied Korea, the Japanese at least knew that, no matter how far they went, there'd always be someone who understood Korean -- go an equivilent distance in New Guinea, and you'd run into languages as different from one another as Ubykh, Navaho, and Swahili. I probably fail at imperialism, but what's the point in having a subject population who can't understand what you're telling them to do?)
Really?
1) Its not real-time.
2) Politics are barely needed, except on the "international" level and even then its quite simplified.
3) Tech tree and military options ARE vastly simple and easy to understand (ie. conscript - basic inf - adv inf)
4) Economy is basically a sum game of adding or subtracting, with a look at long-term easily provided by the limitless time you have per round.
5) Almost non-existent need to stuff your armies with attachments, generals.
How is MH complicated than Doomsday?
Its turn based.
You have to micromanage so many little things.
So many units. Such detailed ordering.
Economy is very complex.
Its just...too complicated.
Incognito
Banned
Even though they presumably faced the same language problems Dutch, Germans and British all controlled the island at one point or another. Why couldn’t Japanese control the island than?