The Great Crusade (Reds! Part 3)

[teg]

My guess is that Stimson isn't a major figure in the UASR government and therefore there isn't anyone advocating to preserve Kyoto's cultural treasures for the future.

Given that the war lasts into '46, I'd have expected that Germany eats a nuke or two as well. Probably before Japan, in fact; the only reason Germany didn't get hit IOTL is they fell before any nukes were ready. Nuremberg seems a likely target.

And I still think that ITTL Japan would have to be an earlier priority, because an invasion of the Kuriles and South Sakhalin is pretty much required if the UASR and USSR want to keep any sort of supply line between them open during the first four years or so of the war.

Actually I suspect that the focus will still be on Germany as in OTL, although there might be limited American operations in the Kuriles and Sakhalin Island to re-open the supply line to the Russian Far East. It honestly wouldn't surprise me if Magadan gets built up as a supply port, although it may not be ice-free all year round (I'm not an expert on historical or present day climate sadly).

I doubt Germany will get nuked, indeed it wouldn't surprise me if they collapse around the same time as in OTL. On the other hand, it is hinted in previous updates that Japan is invaded by both the Soviets and the Americans, which could delay the end of the war until the latter half of 1946.

Neat, I actually get to be there for the start of a threads rather than playing catch up.

A very nice, if somewhat terrifying, look into the 'Great Crusade,' Jello. I was literally gawking at Orwell's implication of 100 million dead from this. Even with a Holocaust that's not quite as severe as OTL, that's almost beyond words. Especially when, even if it was likely hyperbole, that the Soviets and Americans are going to bear the brunt of it as they're 80% of the casualties.

It's also a bit shocking to hear about the liquidation procedures, even if I rather suspected that would be the case. I'm guessing that this is one of the things posters in Reds!' future point to, if they're in the FBU, to say that the UASR and USSR were almost as bad as Nazi Germany? I really like the quotes by Arendt and Lewis, too.

It's an absolute shame that Kyoto goes up in a mushroom cloud. I'm guessing that this will be a definite point of contention between the Japanese and Americans, even if they become official allies after the war.

P.S. Does Anne Frank have a bright future ahead of her ITTL? I'd assume that's a reason she got a nod in the preview...

There is part of me that suspects that Anne Frank will avoid her OTL fate, it is a strange thing to add right at the end unless it hints towards something, I just hope Jello doesn't make it cheap in some way. (I'm sure he won't...)

I have a funny feeling that the motivations behind Kyoto will be the real point of contention ITTL. I suspect that the reason Kyoto is chosen is to facilitate the revolution in Japan, which will obviously cause tensions between the Comintern and Japan, and controversy within both the UASR and the FBU.

teg

 

[LHB]

Sweet it's back! Onward with the Great Crusade, subscribed!

 

[Winston Smith]

A billion deaths from WW2?!!

Also, how are civil rights in the Alt US? Are you allowed to walk around NYC and say "I don't like how things are done"?

 

[eliphas8]

A billion deaths from WW2?!!

Also, how are civil rights in the Alt US? Are you allowed to walk around NYC and say "I don't like how things are done"?

Hundred million according to the quote actually.

 

[Killer300]

A billion deaths from WW2?!!

Also, how are civil rights in the Alt US? Are you allowed to walk around NYC and say "I don't like how things are done"?

No, "just," 100 million, although not sure how it got that bad.

 

[Winston Smith]

Hundred million according to the quote actually.

Which is still terrible, and the other question still stands.

 

[eliphas8]

Which is still terrible, and the other question still stands.

On the second question, yes you are. Although people who want a return to capitalism are probably derided similarly to communists in the OTL US.

 

[Winston Smith]

On the second question, yes you are. Although people who want a return to capitalism are probably derided similarly to communists in the OTL US.

Understanable. As long as they are allowed to hold and express those views, that's fine by me .

 

[Edward_Elric]

A billion deaths from WW2?!!

as the others said, 100 million. Probably due to more American casualties and an even more brutal Far East theater

Also, how are civil rights in the Alt US? Are you allowed to walk around NYC and say "I don't like how things are done"?

Yes. There are also multiple parties to vote for (albeit all in between OTL's center-left to far-left).

It's not like Americans ITTL are going to instantly forget all the good stuff of the original US constitution - especially when the old US's last administration basically scrapped it and made Gen. MacArthur a de facto dictator in response to the 1932 Worker's Party election victory.

 

[Soup]

Oh man, am I excited for this! Especially how you sound like you're going to be taking a leaf out of my new favorite TL (This one) with all of the stories and history book elements.

To add actual content though, I'd argue that the Anne Frank quote doesn't necessarily mean that she will survive, but rather that it represents what will (if I may presume) be one of the themes of this section, and all of Reds!, really: that human beings are capable of great good and evil in the world, if given the opportunity to do it, which is supported by on one of the other quotes about "necessary evils" on the Soviet front. You can argue that the USAR's system allows for greater good than OTL or not (I think it does, but it's neither here nor there), but really that's what I get out of the Reds! series.

 

[ANARCHY_4_ALL]

To add actual content though, I'd argue that the Anne Frank quote doesn't necessarily mean that she will survive, but rather that it represents what will (if I may presume) be one of the themes of this section, and all of Reds!, really: that human beings are capable of great good and evil in the world, if given the opportunity to do it, which is supported by on one of the other quotes about "necessary evils" on the Soviet front. You can argue that the USAR's system allows for greater good than OTL or not (I think it does, but it's neither here nor there), but really that's what I get out of the Reds! series.

I think Jello best sums up what you're saying here....

Alternate history loves grimdark and nuclear war as much as it does futurism.

This TL has equal parts futurism and grimdark, so it's natural that one would bring out the other.

 

[Thon Taddeo]

A variety of anti-Stalinist Marxists came up with a variety of ideas as to what went wrong with the USSR. For example, Trotsky believed that the USSR was a "deformed" workers' state, whereas Tony Cliff and others claimed it to be state capitalist. Post World War Two, does the government of the UASR promote either of these views? Or something else?

Also, Do America and Russia cooperate on developing the bomb? The Sakharov quote seems to suggest so.

In America how much opposition to the war exists? OTL saw thousands of conscientious objectors imprisoned (more so than WWI, if I remember correctly), what happens to COs here? Is there internment of Japanese-Americans?

 

[Edward_Elric]

A variety of anti-Stalinist Marxists came up with a variety of ideas as to what went wrong with the USSR. For example, Trotsky believed that the USSR was a "deformed" workers' state, whereas Tony Cliff and others claimed it to be state capitalist. Post World War Two, does the government of the UASR promote either of these views? Or something else?

Considering the presence Trotsky has in the UASR ittl (he moved from Mexico to the New York ASR during and after the revolution IIRC), I'd imagine that the anti-Soviet (but still anti-FBU) parties would go with his degenerated workers' state thesis.

Also, Do America and Russia cooperate on developing the bomb? The Sakharov quote seems to suggest so.

JB apparently hinted that despite the close war-time alliance, America still keeps its nuclear program under wraps. This'll certainly act as a prime reason (besides the different political-economic situations) for the post-war split in the Comintern.

In America how much opposition to the war exists? OTL saw thousands of conscientious objectors imprisoned (more so than WWI, if I remember correctly), what happens to COs here? Is there internment of Japanese-Americans?

For COs, I'd imagine even harsher punishment for them, getting the dreaded counterrevolutionary label stuck to them until well after the war ends. As for the Nisei, keep in mind that, outside the deep South, the UASR's propaganda stressed the anti-racist aspect of the struggle against fascism. So sending Japanese-Americans off to internment camps simply because of war against their ancestral land likely won't happen. Anybody who suggests that idea would get replied to with something along the lines of: "Yeah, but why didn't you also include all the German and Italian-Americans in your plan, you closet Klansman?"

 

[Derekc2]

For COs, I'd imagine even harsher punishment for them, getting the dreaded counterrevolutionary label stuck to them until well after the war ends. As for the Nisei, keep in mind that, outside the deep South, the UASR's propaganda stressed the anti-racist aspect of the struggle against fascism. So sending Japanese-Americans off to internment camps simply because of war against their ancestral land likely won't happen. Anybody who suggests that idea would get replied to with something along the lines of: "Yeah, but why didn't you also include all the German and Italian-Americans in your plan, you closet Klansman?"

I actually heard the german and Italian-americans were also sent to interment camps.

Which means it's possible that the person who suggests it would also suggest that.

 

[Mr.J]

I actually heard the german and Italian-americans were also sent to interment camps.

This is a semi-common misconception, but it didn't happen (in large part because there were tens of millions of German and Italian-Americans, including prominent politicians and generals).

There were some Italian merchant sailors and Italian citizens who'd come over to work on the '39 World's Fair and overstayed their visas who were interned - I'd assume the same was true of Germans. But it's not like we could let them go back to the Axis powers and get conscripted to fight against us, and AFAIK they were treated pretty well. Fort Missoula interned some Italians during the war* - one married a local woman, stayed after the war to run a deli and died just recently.

*It was involved with Japanese-American internment too, I don't remember exactly how but mostly as a transshipment point rather than a camp IIRC.

 

[Derekc2]

This is a semi-common misconception, but it didn't happen (in large part because there were tens of millions of German and Italian-Americans, including prominent politicians and generals).

There were some Italian merchant sailors and Italian citizens who'd come over to work on the '39 World's Fair and overstayed their visas who were interned - I'd assume the same was true of Germans. But it's not like we could let them go back to the Axis powers and get conscripted to fight against us, and AFAIK they were treated pretty well. Fort Missoula interned some Italians during the war* - one married a local woman, stayed after the war to run a deli and died just recently.

*It was involved with Japanese-American internment too, I don't remember exactly how but mostly as a transshipment point rather than a camp IIRC.

Oh. Ok. Well I had read a book about a person who had the main character be an italian american who's father had been an Italian who live most his life in america having died in one of the interternment camps.

If you like, I could explain the entire situation.

Also before you ask I think the name was Raining pennys or something like. I can't remember.

 

[eliphas8]

I actually heard the german and Italian-americans were also sent to interment camps.

Which means it's possible that the person who suggests it would also suggest that.

Which would be ridiculous in its own way, German is one of the official languages of the UASR and German speakers are a siginifigant enough percentage of the population that imprisoning them would be next to impossible.

 

[Urban fox]

I wonder where the 100 million losses come from, the Soviet's & Chinese suffered more losses than anyone OTL.

But the massive swarm of buttrflies caus by the changed world situation with a Red USA being at least a luckwarm Soviet ally & the implication of an early Soviet A-bomb or a joint Soveit/US A-bomb projects. Means WW2 wont be anything like OTL.

The part about nuking Kyoto, also leads m to think Japan is going to be the big loser ITTL.

 

[Whanztastic]

A good deal of new casualties could come from possible fronts in Latin America.

 

[Workable Goblin]

Actually, the quote from Orwell implies that significantly more than 100 million people are killed during the course of the war, as the population is 100 million people lower six years later. Even though birth rates will be suppressed by the conflict, they won't go to zero...