The Geum Dynasty
- Thread starter tormsen
- Start date
Quite right, I'll change that. That's what my source said, but it now occurs to me that it's a translation and likely a mistake.
Death
Banned
At the end of the Manchu Korea war it will be interesting to see if the Manchu will the Manchu lose there blood lust for along and start another war with Ming. I know what id do if i was in Manchu situation after along bloody war with the Koreans. I would keep the hell out of Ming and concentrate on recovering and assimilating my new conquest if i was Manchu.
Great TL Tormsen you have successfully captured my imagination with the first few posts on this time line.
Great TL Tormsen you have successfully captured my imagination with the first few posts on this time line.
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The arrival of the more advanced cannons built on Chinese design at the siege of Ganghwa island allowed the Manchu to sink a number of Korean ships and forcing the Korean navy to pull back. Those that remained moved sailed away from the Manchu artillery to the far side of the island. Amin, having commandeered barges from upriver, thus sailed past an astonished Yoto and his bannermen to reach the island first. Amin’s objective in taking the island was to capture and either control or eliminate the king as an obstacle to his own ambitions of becoming the overlord of the peninsula. The sudden landing of Amin’s forces took Im Gyeong Eop and his garrison by surprise, but they enacted a furious defence. Until, that is, a Manchu cavalry force, landed on the north side of the island, was able to flank the defenders from behind. As the commandeered barges moved to and fro ferrying fresh invaders, the defenders were overwhelmed. On the western side of the island, a hasty evacuation of the royal family and Western faction members was underway. The king and his officials escaped by ship, but much of the royal household was captured before they could board. Amin, enraged at missing his chance to capture the king, ordered the beheading of the Queen Inryeol and the princes Sohyeon [1], Bongrim and Inpyeong, as well as most of the unlucky courtiers and hangers-on that remained.
When news of the summary execution reached Hong Taeguk, he summoned Amin and Yoto to Hanseong. In the luxury of Changgyeonggung (창경궁 | 昌慶宮) [2] palace, he berated Amin for his hubris and foolishness. Hong Taegeuk had planned to keep the royal family as hostages to force a peace, and then furthermore to keep the Joseon on a tight leash in the future. Now it seemed that continued war was inevitable, and what’s more the executions had caused an upset among the Korean populace and even among their Chinman allies. Although Amin was technically a co-ruler of equal rank with Hong Taegeuk, he found himself outnumbered: Yoto was a crony of Hong, and many of the surrounding Korean population, Chinman and Chinmyeong alike, wished him harm. He was forced to accept a loaded suggestion to relocate to the far north of the peninsula, to complete the pacification of Pyongan and to act as a check against any aggressive moves by the Ming general Mao Wenlong. This would prove to be a mistake.
Im Gyeong Eop had, fortunately for him, been captured by Yoto’s troops and was brought before Hong Taegeuk. Contrary to his expectations, he was spared execution: his defense of Ganghwa island had won the admiration of the Manchu leader. He was, instead, offered a chance to come over to the side of the Chinman. He refused, as the war was still not over, and Hong Taegeuk accepted this with some largesse. Im would be imprisoned in Hanseong, in relative comfort, until he came around to the Manchu's way of thinking. Many of his men, however, were less patriotic. A significant portion of those captured alive on Ganghwa came over to the Chinman side, though their questionable loyalty meant they were divided among the trusted Chinman troops.
Meanwhile, the Neungyanggun fled south to the island of Jindo, famous for a breed of loyal dog. Terrified and furious after hearing reports of the murder of his family and courtiers, he began to write frantic letters to the Shogun Tokugawa Iemitsu pleading for assistance. Further supplies of muskets and gunpowder were sent from Tsushima, but a formal intervention was blocked by the Ogosho Tokugawa Hidetata [3] for the time being. In any event, with much of the formerly powerful Westerner faction stuck in Namhansanseong fortress surrounded by Jirgalang’s bannermen and Chinman forces, and much of the remainder killed by Amin’s bannermen on Ganghwa island, the political influence of the king himself had diminished.
Most of the organized Korean resistance was based around the city of Jeonju, where the Minister of War, Jang Man (장만 | 張晩), dominated. As most of the surviving government was cowering in Namhansanseong fortress surrounded by the enemy, what was essentially a military government formed. The defenders realized that in order to defeat the invaders, it would be important to utilize naval power as much as practically possible. The Korean navy was advanced, having defeated the Japanese a generation earlier. Though they lacked a naval commander with the brilliance of Yi Sunshin, there was no Manchu naval force to challenge the Korean navy. Logistically and tactically the sea was the Joseon's greatest asset.
In Hamgyeong-do, Dasen’s main rival was the Korean general Yi Rip (이립 | 李立). Despite access to additional Manchu reinforcements from across the Tumen river, Dasen was unable to strike a fatal blow against the canny general. Korean irregular forces, the mountainous landscape and Korean naval control of the East Sea conspired against the invaders. However, as time passed the Korean forces were pushed back and forced to pull back to the safety of the Yukjin (육진| 六鎭), the garrisons established along the Tumen in the 15th century to safeguard against northern barbarian aggression. With aggression coming from both sides, however, these garrisons fell one by one. Though Korean irregular attacks continued, the bulk of the organized Korean resistance pulled south to Gangwon-do by land or via sea.
[1] I feel bad for young Sohyeon, but he's an interesting and tragic figure. In OTL, he was kept as a hostage by the Qing and ended up being exposed to Catholicism by Jesuits in Beijing. He is said to have had ambitions to bring Catholicism and Western ideas to Kore, but this ruffled way too many conservative feathers, including those of his father, the odious Injo (the Neungyanggun ITTL). He ended up dying of a "mysterious" head injury in the palace. I think a "Prince Sohyeon becomes king, 17th century Korea is opened to Catholic missionaries and Western trade, hilarity ensues" timeline has a lot of potential...
[2] Changdeokgung would have been a better palace to take over, but the Neungyanggun [Injo]'s coup resulted in arson and I doubt it was completely reconstructed by this point.
[3] The position of "Retired Shogun" still meant he had control of most of the power at this point.
When news of the summary execution reached Hong Taeguk, he summoned Amin and Yoto to Hanseong. In the luxury of Changgyeonggung (창경궁 | 昌慶宮) [2] palace, he berated Amin for his hubris and foolishness. Hong Taegeuk had planned to keep the royal family as hostages to force a peace, and then furthermore to keep the Joseon on a tight leash in the future. Now it seemed that continued war was inevitable, and what’s more the executions had caused an upset among the Korean populace and even among their Chinman allies. Although Amin was technically a co-ruler of equal rank with Hong Taegeuk, he found himself outnumbered: Yoto was a crony of Hong, and many of the surrounding Korean population, Chinman and Chinmyeong alike, wished him harm. He was forced to accept a loaded suggestion to relocate to the far north of the peninsula, to complete the pacification of Pyongan and to act as a check against any aggressive moves by the Ming general Mao Wenlong. This would prove to be a mistake.
Im Gyeong Eop had, fortunately for him, been captured by Yoto’s troops and was brought before Hong Taegeuk. Contrary to his expectations, he was spared execution: his defense of Ganghwa island had won the admiration of the Manchu leader. He was, instead, offered a chance to come over to the side of the Chinman. He refused, as the war was still not over, and Hong Taegeuk accepted this with some largesse. Im would be imprisoned in Hanseong, in relative comfort, until he came around to the Manchu's way of thinking. Many of his men, however, were less patriotic. A significant portion of those captured alive on Ganghwa came over to the Chinman side, though their questionable loyalty meant they were divided among the trusted Chinman troops.
Meanwhile, the Neungyanggun fled south to the island of Jindo, famous for a breed of loyal dog. Terrified and furious after hearing reports of the murder of his family and courtiers, he began to write frantic letters to the Shogun Tokugawa Iemitsu pleading for assistance. Further supplies of muskets and gunpowder were sent from Tsushima, but a formal intervention was blocked by the Ogosho Tokugawa Hidetata [3] for the time being. In any event, with much of the formerly powerful Westerner faction stuck in Namhansanseong fortress surrounded by Jirgalang’s bannermen and Chinman forces, and much of the remainder killed by Amin’s bannermen on Ganghwa island, the political influence of the king himself had diminished.
Most of the organized Korean resistance was based around the city of Jeonju, where the Minister of War, Jang Man (장만 | 張晩), dominated. As most of the surviving government was cowering in Namhansanseong fortress surrounded by the enemy, what was essentially a military government formed. The defenders realized that in order to defeat the invaders, it would be important to utilize naval power as much as practically possible. The Korean navy was advanced, having defeated the Japanese a generation earlier. Though they lacked a naval commander with the brilliance of Yi Sunshin, there was no Manchu naval force to challenge the Korean navy. Logistically and tactically the sea was the Joseon's greatest asset.
In Hamgyeong-do, Dasen’s main rival was the Korean general Yi Rip (이립 | 李立). Despite access to additional Manchu reinforcements from across the Tumen river, Dasen was unable to strike a fatal blow against the canny general. Korean irregular forces, the mountainous landscape and Korean naval control of the East Sea conspired against the invaders. However, as time passed the Korean forces were pushed back and forced to pull back to the safety of the Yukjin (육진| 六鎭), the garrisons established along the Tumen in the 15th century to safeguard against northern barbarian aggression. With aggression coming from both sides, however, these garrisons fell one by one. Though Korean irregular attacks continued, the bulk of the organized Korean resistance pulled south to Gangwon-do by land or via sea.
[1] I feel bad for young Sohyeon, but he's an interesting and tragic figure. In OTL, he was kept as a hostage by the Qing and ended up being exposed to Catholicism by Jesuits in Beijing. He is said to have had ambitions to bring Catholicism and Western ideas to Kore, but this ruffled way too many conservative feathers, including those of his father, the odious Injo (the Neungyanggun ITTL). He ended up dying of a "mysterious" head injury in the palace. I think a "Prince Sohyeon becomes king, 17th century Korea is opened to Catholic missionaries and Western trade, hilarity ensues" timeline has a lot of potential...
[2] Changdeokgung would have been a better palace to take over, but the Neungyanggun [Injo]'s coup resulted in arson and I doubt it was completely reconstructed by this point.
[3] The position of "Retired Shogun" still meant he had control of most of the power at this point.
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Yuan Chonghuan’s retirement did not last long, the death of the Tianqi emperor saw Yuan’s main enemy at court, the eunuch Wei Zhongxian, forced to commit suicide and posthumously disembowelled. The reinstatement was not immediate, however. The main impetus came in the next year with a raid on Beijing by the Chahar Mongols under the Khagan Ligden Khan. Having recently defeated a major revolt by a group of allied tumens and princes, the Khagan was lacking in both men and funds. The raid into China was intended to force the Ming to pay an increased subsidy for the service of defending the frontier, and in this aspect it was initially successful as the Ming promised to pay 81,000,000 taels to Ligden for services of "defending the frontier". Ligden intended to unify the Mongols under the banner of the Borjigin clan and the Northern Yuan dynasty. The Eastern Tumens, who opposed Ligden’s attempts, had aligned with the Manchus under Nurhaci. But as the Manchus were otherwise involved in their Korean invasion, Ligden believed that the time was ripe to eliminate his enemies.
As the Khagan prepared for an expedition across the Khinggan Range in early 1628, Yuan Chonghuan was recalled to Beijing by the young Chongzhen Emperor. Though Yuan’s first concern was the complete recovery of the frontier Liaodong province (taken by the Manchus under Nurhaci), the new Emperor reinstated him as commander of the northeast with the express instruction of punishing Ligden Khan for his impudence. Yuan accepted, calculating that by eliminating Ligden, the Ming would be able to establish control over the southern Mongolian steppes, yielding access to superior cavalry with which to challenge the Manchu. Thus would begin Yuan’s ambitious plan of solving the Ming’s security problems along the long and troubled northeastern frontier by eliminating both the Mongol and the Manchu threats permanently.
Ligden Khan’s Chahar forces had already crossed the Khinggan range and were engaged with the Khorchin and the Tümed[1] when word was recieved that a Ming army had marched north from Ningyuan and was threatening the Chahar capital of Hohhot. What followed became a war between the pro-Ligden and anti-Ligden tumens, with Yuan supporting the latter. Some of those who bore a grudge against Ligden remained on his side, for fear of domination by the Ming, and thus it was that the pro-Ligden forces outnumbered those of Yuan and the anti-Ligden Mongols. However, weakened by earlier wars against the Sunif, Uzemchin and Abaga in 1627 had weakened the Chahars, so despite a numerical advantage they were unable to take full advantage of it. Yuan Chonghuan played his cards cleverly, issuing orders to the guards along the Great Wall to kill any of his troops attempting to return to China in order to stave off desertions.
Unlike the Manchus who had learned quickly, the Mongols had little access to or skill with artillery, and this was an advantage that Yuan pushed hard. Eventually, Yuan's skill with artillery (which had been crucial to the defeat of the Manchu leader Nurhaci at the Battle of Ningyuan in 1626) played a crucial role: the Khagan himself was injured and withdrew from the field. Yuan sent letters asking of the Khagan's well-being and making suggestions for an honorable peace and these were accepted with relative good grace by the Khagan. An assemblage of tumen leaders gathered together with the Khagan and the Ming general in Hohhot to discuss Mongolia's future.
On the Yalu river island of Pidao, Mao Wenlong recieved words of Yuan’s success with some trepidation. He ruled what was essentially his own personal fief there where orders from higher up could be essentially obeyed or ignored at his pleasure, but if Yuan was to recapture Liaodong it could very well be ruined. In addition, Mao’s power rested on his good standing in court, and there was an increasing pressure that something be done to check the Manchu running riot in Korea. To maintain his position, he needed to act against the Manchus, but that ran the risk that his island base would be overrun. An opportunity presented itself with the presence in the nearby Pyongan province of Korea where a frustrated General Amin was suppressing Korean irregular forces and taking out his displeasure at being outmaneuvered on the local population. A number of letters were exchanged between Mao and Amin, and a conspiracy was formulated. Mao hoped to cause dissension between the Manchus and take credit for it at court. Amin, on the other hand, wished to strike a blow against both the Joseon and Hong Taegeuk in order to set himself up to be the warlord of Korea. Mao offered Amin the use of his fleet and some of his men to this end.
Amin’s grand scheme was simple: to capture and eliminate both the Gwanghaegun and the Neungyanggun, thus removing the two claimants to the Joseon throne. By using Mao’s fleet, he would be able to beat the other Manchu armies on land to the south, and claim the most glory. Two groups thus sailed south, the larger to Jin island, the other sailing to Jeju. The larger was sent to Jin island, but en route encountered a Korean fleet. The Koreans initially recognized the ships as Ming vessels, but with the realization that they were filled with Manchu soldiers the Korean admiral ordered an attack. The Korean fleet both outnumbered and outgunned Mao's modest fleet, but some of the vessels made it through to Jin island. The island was adequately defended and the Manchu roundly defeated, but the Neungyanggun fled once again regardless, this time east to Dongnae.
The smaller fleet that sailed to Jeju, however, successfully evaded Korean naval forces and several thousand Manchu troops were landed on the island. What followed was a comedy of errors, as the Manchu ran amock throughout the island in pursuit of the deposed Gwanghaegun without a clear understanding of where he was, in the meantime fighting the irregular forces. In the end, the Gwanghaegun found them. Assuming that they had come to bring him back to the capital and place him back on the throne, the Gwanghaegun escaped from his captors alone with the help of co-conspirators and made contact with the Manchu. Initially unsure of what to do, the Manchus almost killed him before deciding to return to Pidao and leave him to their general to decide what to do with him (though unbeknownest to them, Amin was already dead, killed in the botched raid on Jin island).
It is interesting to consider what would have happened if the Gwanghaegun had made it back to Pidao with Amin's soldiers. How the canny general Mao Wendong could have used him would be interesting to consider. If he had reached Hong Taegeuk in Hanseong, it likely would have resulted in his reinstatement as king, a peace treaty with lavish spoils for the Manchus, and the invaders return north to defend their territories against Yuan Chonghuan. The war between the Chinman and the Chingmyeong would have become simply a civil war. However, as it was, the Manchu and deposed king sailing in Chinese vessels were recognized by Korean ships off the western coast of Jeolla province. Realizing already that the Manchu had access to Ming ships, the Koreans immediately attacked and their superior naval artillery sent the deposed king to the bottom of the Yellow Sea.
[1] This is happening a couple of years earlier than OTL, Ligden wants to take advantage of the Manchus distraction to consolidate his rule.
As the Khagan prepared for an expedition across the Khinggan Range in early 1628, Yuan Chonghuan was recalled to Beijing by the young Chongzhen Emperor. Though Yuan’s first concern was the complete recovery of the frontier Liaodong province (taken by the Manchus under Nurhaci), the new Emperor reinstated him as commander of the northeast with the express instruction of punishing Ligden Khan for his impudence. Yuan accepted, calculating that by eliminating Ligden, the Ming would be able to establish control over the southern Mongolian steppes, yielding access to superior cavalry with which to challenge the Manchu. Thus would begin Yuan’s ambitious plan of solving the Ming’s security problems along the long and troubled northeastern frontier by eliminating both the Mongol and the Manchu threats permanently.
Ligden Khan’s Chahar forces had already crossed the Khinggan range and were engaged with the Khorchin and the Tümed[1] when word was recieved that a Ming army had marched north from Ningyuan and was threatening the Chahar capital of Hohhot. What followed became a war between the pro-Ligden and anti-Ligden tumens, with Yuan supporting the latter. Some of those who bore a grudge against Ligden remained on his side, for fear of domination by the Ming, and thus it was that the pro-Ligden forces outnumbered those of Yuan and the anti-Ligden Mongols. However, weakened by earlier wars against the Sunif, Uzemchin and Abaga in 1627 had weakened the Chahars, so despite a numerical advantage they were unable to take full advantage of it. Yuan Chonghuan played his cards cleverly, issuing orders to the guards along the Great Wall to kill any of his troops attempting to return to China in order to stave off desertions.
Unlike the Manchus who had learned quickly, the Mongols had little access to or skill with artillery, and this was an advantage that Yuan pushed hard. Eventually, Yuan's skill with artillery (which had been crucial to the defeat of the Manchu leader Nurhaci at the Battle of Ningyuan in 1626) played a crucial role: the Khagan himself was injured and withdrew from the field. Yuan sent letters asking of the Khagan's well-being and making suggestions for an honorable peace and these were accepted with relative good grace by the Khagan. An assemblage of tumen leaders gathered together with the Khagan and the Ming general in Hohhot to discuss Mongolia's future.
On the Yalu river island of Pidao, Mao Wenlong recieved words of Yuan’s success with some trepidation. He ruled what was essentially his own personal fief there where orders from higher up could be essentially obeyed or ignored at his pleasure, but if Yuan was to recapture Liaodong it could very well be ruined. In addition, Mao’s power rested on his good standing in court, and there was an increasing pressure that something be done to check the Manchu running riot in Korea. To maintain his position, he needed to act against the Manchus, but that ran the risk that his island base would be overrun. An opportunity presented itself with the presence in the nearby Pyongan province of Korea where a frustrated General Amin was suppressing Korean irregular forces and taking out his displeasure at being outmaneuvered on the local population. A number of letters were exchanged between Mao and Amin, and a conspiracy was formulated. Mao hoped to cause dissension between the Manchus and take credit for it at court. Amin, on the other hand, wished to strike a blow against both the Joseon and Hong Taegeuk in order to set himself up to be the warlord of Korea. Mao offered Amin the use of his fleet and some of his men to this end.
Amin’s grand scheme was simple: to capture and eliminate both the Gwanghaegun and the Neungyanggun, thus removing the two claimants to the Joseon throne. By using Mao’s fleet, he would be able to beat the other Manchu armies on land to the south, and claim the most glory. Two groups thus sailed south, the larger to Jin island, the other sailing to Jeju. The larger was sent to Jin island, but en route encountered a Korean fleet. The Koreans initially recognized the ships as Ming vessels, but with the realization that they were filled with Manchu soldiers the Korean admiral ordered an attack. The Korean fleet both outnumbered and outgunned Mao's modest fleet, but some of the vessels made it through to Jin island. The island was adequately defended and the Manchu roundly defeated, but the Neungyanggun fled once again regardless, this time east to Dongnae.
The smaller fleet that sailed to Jeju, however, successfully evaded Korean naval forces and several thousand Manchu troops were landed on the island. What followed was a comedy of errors, as the Manchu ran amock throughout the island in pursuit of the deposed Gwanghaegun without a clear understanding of where he was, in the meantime fighting the irregular forces. In the end, the Gwanghaegun found them. Assuming that they had come to bring him back to the capital and place him back on the throne, the Gwanghaegun escaped from his captors alone with the help of co-conspirators and made contact with the Manchu. Initially unsure of what to do, the Manchus almost killed him before deciding to return to Pidao and leave him to their general to decide what to do with him (though unbeknownest to them, Amin was already dead, killed in the botched raid on Jin island).
It is interesting to consider what would have happened if the Gwanghaegun had made it back to Pidao with Amin's soldiers. How the canny general Mao Wendong could have used him would be interesting to consider. If he had reached Hong Taegeuk in Hanseong, it likely would have resulted in his reinstatement as king, a peace treaty with lavish spoils for the Manchus, and the invaders return north to defend their territories against Yuan Chonghuan. The war between the Chinman and the Chingmyeong would have become simply a civil war. However, as it was, the Manchu and deposed king sailing in Chinese vessels were recognized by Korean ships off the western coast of Jeolla province. Realizing already that the Manchu had access to Ming ships, the Koreans immediately attacked and their superior naval artillery sent the deposed king to the bottom of the Yellow Sea.
[1] This is happening a couple of years earlier than OTL, Ligden wants to take advantage of the Manchus distraction to consolidate his rule.
Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy
Banned
When was Liaodong conquered? One minute the Ming use it to intervene in Korea and the next it was taken by Nurhaci.
If the Manchus do end up forming a new Korean dynasty, will they impose the queue?
If the Manchus do end up forming a new Korean dynasty, will they impose the queue?
At this point, ITTL and IOTL, most of the Liaodong peninsula is under Manchu domination (after being taken by Nurhaci a few years prior, he died pre-PoD), while parts of the east are still held by the Ming. In OTL at this point the Manchus would be encroaching on the Ming parts, but ITTL they're distracted in Korea.
Mao Wendong had a base on the border of Liaodong and Joseon that he used to raid the Manchus IOTL and ITTL, it was supplied by sea. Yuan Chonghuan's operations came from the parts of Liaodong still held by the Ming, and they marched through nominally Manchu-held areas to get to Joseon.
If the Manchus do end up forming a new Korean dynasty, will they impose the queue?[/QUOTE]
Still thinking about that. It depends on how the relative dynamic between Koreans and Manchus turns out vis-a-vis OTL's Han-Manchu dynamic.
Actually the Border of Korea and China on that time is disputed by the scholars in the present in fact there was a deal of Japan with China called the Gando convention where in China and Japan had a deal about Korea..
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Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy
Banned
That's just Korean nationalist nonsense. In any case, the Gando region has nothing to do with Liaodong, which is what tormsen was discussing.
Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy
Banned
Going by the assumption that the Jurchen end up in control of Korea, here's 3 suggestions:
(1) The Japanese may end up occupying Jeju and some other islands off the southern coast of the peninsula.
(2) The Jurchen may try to sever the cultural links between China and Korea by abolishing hanja and replacing it with either their own alphabet or hangul.
(3) Ruling Korea allows the Jurchen to trade with the West (meaning the Spanish and Dutch) and build a navy to menace Chinese shores. I'm assuming Western firearms are superior to anything they have; I don't know about artillery. This is assuming they don't decide to cut off Korea from the rest of the world.
If someone has a map of Jurchen expansion prior to the conquest of China it would be very appreciated.
(1) The Japanese may end up occupying Jeju and some other islands off the southern coast of the peninsula.
(2) The Jurchen may try to sever the cultural links between China and Korea by abolishing hanja and replacing it with either their own alphabet or hangul.
(3) Ruling Korea allows the Jurchen to trade with the West (meaning the Spanish and Dutch) and build a navy to menace Chinese shores. I'm assuming Western firearms are superior to anything they have; I don't know about artillery. This is assuming they don't decide to cut off Korea from the rest of the world.
If someone has a map of Jurchen expansion prior to the conquest of China it would be very appreciated.
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I think Hangul can replace Hanja like what they did in North Korea but the question is, is Hanja banned completely?
I don't really think so at this point, I expect that Manchu will end up taking over enough of the Korean navy and it's naval infrastructure to control their southern islands. That's the short term though, in the medium term Japan is going to play an interesting role.
Or something else
Manchu firearms are based on Chinese firearms, which are based on Portugeuse and Dutch firearms. But they aren't as widely used, and a rather large portion of the Manchu armies are still using longbows.
They may cut themselves off. Joseon Korea did OTL, and Qing China would have preferred to OTL as well. It depends on the political situation, and how useful trading with the West is.
I haven't seen a map of that portion of the expansion, I've just been going off more general maps of the region and what my sources tell me.
Hanja is probably not going to be banned completely but I suppose it's possible. But I have some other ideas relating to language and language scripts...
Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy
Banned
That's assuming the Koreans don't Scapa Flow their navy. If the Jurchen do end up with it though, things may turn out the opposite of what I suggested - they may try to seize Tsushima.
Something else, something else... The only alternative I can think of is a Korean alphabet based on the Manchu one.Or something else
Well you can't really base it on what the Joseon did, and Qing China is a very different beast, one that has had its fill. A Jurchen empire trying to conquer China would relate to the outside world pragmatically rather than ideologically IMO.
And on how much Confucian conservative influence the Jurchen are subjected to.
News of a Ming fleet assisting Amin’s attempts to eliminate the Gwanghaegun and the Neungyanggun, and the naval skirmishes between the Korean fleet and Mao’s vessels sent shock waves through the defending Korean forces. Coupled with relentless Manchu propaganda as well as confusion as to the location and condition of the Neungyangun, this caused increased numbers of the Chinmyeong forces to defect and join the ranks of the Chinman. The Manchu’s appreciation for martial valor had a seductive effect on many Korean generals, particularly when held in contrast to the traditional low position of the military in the eyes of the Joseon government. South of Seoul, the fortress of Namhansanseong where the larger portion of the civillian government cowered was breached, not by the artillery still en route from Ganghwa island but rather by traitors within the castle itself. The courtiers and various members of the Western faction were brought in front of Jirgalang and ordered to accept Manchu rule or die. The vast majority chose the pragmatic option, and were allowed to return to Hanseong where they would be under the strong thumb of the Chinman faction there.
It was thus that the armies of Yoto, Jirgalang and Hong Taegeuk combined with a significant Chinman Korean host began to march south toward the Chinmyeong stronghold of Jeonju, leaving a small but significant garrison of Manchu bannermen in Hanseong. The Chinmyeong generals stood their ground, but the open plains of Jeolla province were a playground to Manchu cavalry who had taken the eastern route through Chungcheong province to avoid the irregular-haunted Sobaek mountains. The more modern of the Manchu guns had greater range and accuracy than those of the Korean forces as well. The single most important factor, however, was that while surrendered Chinman forces tended to be summarily executed as traitors, the Manchus were willing to accept the surrender or defection of Chinmyeong forces with little quarrel. As the Manchus pushed their technical and tactical advantages, the ranks of the Chinmyeong began to slowly melt away, either joining with the Manchu or fleeing east to Gyeongsang-do in the case of the die-hards. The Manchu and their allies were soon able to consolidate their gains, and even secured control of part of the Korean navy as well as most of the ports along the eastern and southeastern edge of the country.
It is said that even at this point, Hong Taegeuk expressed a willingness to parlay with the Korean king, and sent a number of missives to the king ensconsed in Donghae. However, before either an overwhelming victory or a peace could be attained, word began to arrive from the north. Yuan Chonghuan had crossed the Liao river with a great Mongol host. The Ming general was making his play for the recovery of Liaodong, and the homeland of the Manchus was threatened even in this time of victory.
For the first time, the Chinmyeong Korean auxiliaries began to be formally organized into Banners in the Manchu fashion, and it is among these new bannermen that the Manchu fashion of the queue: a shaved head with a ponytail kept at the back; was first introduced to Korea. These new Banners were divided up in terms of their perceived loyalty or the length of time they had spent fighting alongside the Manchu. The most trusted of the Korean bannermen would be sent to assist Yoto and Daisan in the pacification of the Gangwon and Gyeongsang provinces. Those trusted less would accompany Jirgalang and Hong Taegeuk’s armies north to help defend the Manchu homeland and their territory in eastern Liaodong from the Ming and Mongol invaders. En route to the north, the banner armies used some of their newly won Korean vessels to capture Mao Wendong’s island base of Pidao. Mao sent urgent requests from reinforcements to Yuan, and recieved no reply: the silence spoke volumes. The island was taken with little trouble, though Mao himself escaped.
By the time the banner armies could cross the Yalu and enter the Liaodong region proper, the Manchu capital of Mukden had already fallen. The banner armies met the Ming and the Tumen coalition near the city of Liaoyang. To protect their own troops, the Manchu ordered the Korean bannermen forward. In an alien environment and poorly equipped to deal with the Mongol cavalry, the Koreans took heavy casualties. The bannermen withdrew, and for some time they played a slow game of attrition, sacrificing Korean soldiers to tire the Mongol and Ming forces while accumulating reinforcements. The sheer numbers of the Mongol host, however, made this seem impossible and it was at this point that Hong Taegeuk considered recalling Daisan and his red border banner army from the Korean peninsula. However, at a crucial moment, the Ming forces left the scene marching back toward the Great Wall. Some element of organization seemed to have left the Mongols after this, and the bannermen began to push them back. Contact was made with the Mongol forces, and they agreed to return to their own lands in peace. The Mongol host dispersed into it’s individual tumen elements and left west over the Liao river. The Manchus were left scratching their heads but relieved.
The truth of the matter was that Yuan Chonghuan had been able to have himself declared Kundulen Baatar ("Honored Hero", an initially honorary title) by the Mongols, both ally and former enemy alike as all admired his martial skill. The Khagan Ligden, who recovered from his injuries but remained weak, abdicated in favour of his son Ejei and left for Tibet to become a monk (albeit a monk who retained a significant coterie of bodyguards and courtesans). Yuan Chonghuan offered the Mongols a huge subsidy of taels and goods from the Ming in exchange for their assistance in reconquering the frontier province of Liaodong, though he was in no position to make such promises. This was the source of his mighty Mongol host, but word of his deeds had reached the capital and the ears of the suspicious Chongzhen Emperor. Mao Wendong and his allies in the capital spread rumors about Yuan Chonghuan, about his failure to relieve the base at Pidao. A message was sent ordering Yuan to return to Jinzhou.
Yuan Chonghuan and his army were weary, as the cost of defeating both Ligden Khan and then marching against the Manchu had proven more costly than expected. With perhaps less knowledge of his emperor than he should have had, Yuan expected to return to accolades and fresh reinforcement to continue the recovery of Liaodong, but instead he was arrested on his arrival. Accused of conspiracy against China for accepting a rank among the Mongols, he was placed in chains ready for transport back to Beijing for execution. His men, offended, were outnumbered by the fresh troops of the new Northeast District Commander: Mao Wendong. They were, however, left unwatched and when some of the scouts disappeared into the night they were not missed. Yuan's loyalists encountered the retreating Mongol forces, who retained enough respect and admiration for the general to take umbrage as well. The transport taking the prisoner Yuan Chonghuan to his execution was intercepted en route to Ningyuan, and the former Ming general vanished into the Mongolian wilderness. The Chongzhen Emperors suspicions were soon to become a self-fulfilling prophecy.
It was thus that the armies of Yoto, Jirgalang and Hong Taegeuk combined with a significant Chinman Korean host began to march south toward the Chinmyeong stronghold of Jeonju, leaving a small but significant garrison of Manchu bannermen in Hanseong. The Chinmyeong generals stood their ground, but the open plains of Jeolla province were a playground to Manchu cavalry who had taken the eastern route through Chungcheong province to avoid the irregular-haunted Sobaek mountains. The more modern of the Manchu guns had greater range and accuracy than those of the Korean forces as well. The single most important factor, however, was that while surrendered Chinman forces tended to be summarily executed as traitors, the Manchus were willing to accept the surrender or defection of Chinmyeong forces with little quarrel. As the Manchus pushed their technical and tactical advantages, the ranks of the Chinmyeong began to slowly melt away, either joining with the Manchu or fleeing east to Gyeongsang-do in the case of the die-hards. The Manchu and their allies were soon able to consolidate their gains, and even secured control of part of the Korean navy as well as most of the ports along the eastern and southeastern edge of the country.
It is said that even at this point, Hong Taegeuk expressed a willingness to parlay with the Korean king, and sent a number of missives to the king ensconsed in Donghae. However, before either an overwhelming victory or a peace could be attained, word began to arrive from the north. Yuan Chonghuan had crossed the Liao river with a great Mongol host. The Ming general was making his play for the recovery of Liaodong, and the homeland of the Manchus was threatened even in this time of victory.
For the first time, the Chinmyeong Korean auxiliaries began to be formally organized into Banners in the Manchu fashion, and it is among these new bannermen that the Manchu fashion of the queue: a shaved head with a ponytail kept at the back; was first introduced to Korea. These new Banners were divided up in terms of their perceived loyalty or the length of time they had spent fighting alongside the Manchu. The most trusted of the Korean bannermen would be sent to assist Yoto and Daisan in the pacification of the Gangwon and Gyeongsang provinces. Those trusted less would accompany Jirgalang and Hong Taegeuk’s armies north to help defend the Manchu homeland and their territory in eastern Liaodong from the Ming and Mongol invaders. En route to the north, the banner armies used some of their newly won Korean vessels to capture Mao Wendong’s island base of Pidao. Mao sent urgent requests from reinforcements to Yuan, and recieved no reply: the silence spoke volumes. The island was taken with little trouble, though Mao himself escaped.
By the time the banner armies could cross the Yalu and enter the Liaodong region proper, the Manchu capital of Mukden had already fallen. The banner armies met the Ming and the Tumen coalition near the city of Liaoyang. To protect their own troops, the Manchu ordered the Korean bannermen forward. In an alien environment and poorly equipped to deal with the Mongol cavalry, the Koreans took heavy casualties. The bannermen withdrew, and for some time they played a slow game of attrition, sacrificing Korean soldiers to tire the Mongol and Ming forces while accumulating reinforcements. The sheer numbers of the Mongol host, however, made this seem impossible and it was at this point that Hong Taegeuk considered recalling Daisan and his red border banner army from the Korean peninsula. However, at a crucial moment, the Ming forces left the scene marching back toward the Great Wall. Some element of organization seemed to have left the Mongols after this, and the bannermen began to push them back. Contact was made with the Mongol forces, and they agreed to return to their own lands in peace. The Mongol host dispersed into it’s individual tumen elements and left west over the Liao river. The Manchus were left scratching their heads but relieved.
The truth of the matter was that Yuan Chonghuan had been able to have himself declared Kundulen Baatar ("Honored Hero", an initially honorary title) by the Mongols, both ally and former enemy alike as all admired his martial skill. The Khagan Ligden, who recovered from his injuries but remained weak, abdicated in favour of his son Ejei and left for Tibet to become a monk (albeit a monk who retained a significant coterie of bodyguards and courtesans). Yuan Chonghuan offered the Mongols a huge subsidy of taels and goods from the Ming in exchange for their assistance in reconquering the frontier province of Liaodong, though he was in no position to make such promises. This was the source of his mighty Mongol host, but word of his deeds had reached the capital and the ears of the suspicious Chongzhen Emperor. Mao Wendong and his allies in the capital spread rumors about Yuan Chonghuan, about his failure to relieve the base at Pidao. A message was sent ordering Yuan to return to Jinzhou.
Yuan Chonghuan and his army were weary, as the cost of defeating both Ligden Khan and then marching against the Manchu had proven more costly than expected. With perhaps less knowledge of his emperor than he should have had, Yuan expected to return to accolades and fresh reinforcement to continue the recovery of Liaodong, but instead he was arrested on his arrival. Accused of conspiracy against China for accepting a rank among the Mongols, he was placed in chains ready for transport back to Beijing for execution. His men, offended, were outnumbered by the fresh troops of the new Northeast District Commander: Mao Wendong. They were, however, left unwatched and when some of the scouts disappeared into the night they were not missed. Yuan's loyalists encountered the retreating Mongol forces, who retained enough respect and admiration for the general to take umbrage as well. The transport taking the prisoner Yuan Chonghuan to his execution was intercepted en route to Ningyuan, and the former Ming general vanished into the Mongolian wilderness. The Chongzhen Emperors suspicions were soon to become a self-fulfilling prophecy.
maverick
Banned
Forgot about this one and then got lost.
Anyhow, you need more proof-reading.
Especially for names, as I've learned with names such as Luo Liangzuo (which I often misspell as Liangzou) or Zhang Xianzhong.
Anyhow, love the turn the TL is taking. Great use of Mao Wenlong and Yuan Chonghuan. Especially the last part: Mao as Commander of the Frontier and Yuan escaping to the Mongolian Wilderness, possibly to tell tales of how it was the Chongzhen Emperor the one to deny the Mongols the money Yuan promised! Very exciting conclusion to this last chapter.
Anyhow, you need more proof-reading.
Especially for names, as I've learned with names such as Luo Liangzuo (which I often misspell as Liangzou) or Zhang Xianzhong.
Anyhow, love the turn the TL is taking. Great use of Mao Wenlong and Yuan Chonghuan. Especially the last part: Mao as Commander of the Frontier and Yuan escaping to the Mongolian Wilderness, possibly to tell tales of how it was the Chongzhen Emperor the one to deny the Mongols the money Yuan promised!
Very exciting conclusion to this last chapter.Argh, that was a pretty terrible one. Yeah I'm not as strict about proof-reading as I really should be...
Anyhow, love the turn the TL is taking. Great use of Mao Wenlong and Yuan Chonghuan. Especially the last part: Mao as Commander of the Frontier and Yuan escaping to the Mongolian Wilderness, possibly to tell tales of how it was the Chongzhen Emperor the one to deny the Mongols the money Yuan promised!
I kept intending to kill those characters off at certain points and then finding some more interesting way of using them. You haven't seen the last of either of them. Yuan in particular...