The Dakai Dynasty: Rise of the Heavenly Kingdom

[eliphas8]

Rather than blaming "True" democracy, the blame should fall on the multiple political parties claiming themselves as representing the public and fighting among themselves and their real loyalties lie on each of their own party.

A 100% recipe for disaster as in OTL.

"Democracy" is the result of a good government, not some governments claiming their governmental system as being "democratic", having a knee-jerk reaction to other form of governments, denouncing them as "undemocratic" and they themselves 'magically' become democratic. It also doesn't stay like that forever and the governments must keep reforming themselves.

Non-partisan democracy is a myth, it is utterly impossible to have a democratic system where fundamental disagreements on what's right emerges. In that sense the emperor is right, but at the same time I have to say that he's missing the forest for the trees. This crisis can squarely be blamed on the Popular party, it was their manipulation over and over again which saw a situation that could have been a peaceful transfer of power turn into a rabid witch hunt or riots in the streets.

Also for such a huge nation the assembly was ridiculously tiny, thirty people representing a nation of hundreds of millions. I'd have thought they'd eventually shift to one a province.

 

[Sabot Cat]

Non-partisan democracy is a myth, it is utterly impossible to have a democratic system where fundamental disagreements on what's right emerges.

Equally true, and I'm glad this is sparking discussion.

In that sense the emperor is right, but at the same time I have to say that he's missing the forest for the trees. This crisis can squarely be blamed on the Popular party, it was their manipulation over and over again which saw a situation that could have been a peaceful transfer of power turn into a rabid witch hunt or riots in the streets.

Then again, it took the entire Imperial Congress to pass the crucial amendments which enabled Chairman Sung to eventually attain the Chancellorship, and Emperor Yonghuo is not blameless in the famine crisis.

Also for such a huge nation the assembly was ridiculously tiny, thirty people representing a nation of hundreds of millions. I'd have thought they'd eventually shift to one a province.

Hmm...

 

[Used-to-be Song Chinese]

Interesting, nice to see another TL that focused on China

But can you stop using Simplified Chinese please? Because firstly as it was a form of writing only appeared after PRC reigned, so it is inappropriate for the Chinese before the 40s to use up Simplified; secondly, which us quite personal actually, is that Simplified Chinese is a form of writing that just completely ignored the linguistic rule of Chinese language, as I am a ethnic Chinese and a lover of Chinese culture, I just dislike this form of writing.

But still, a good TL through, keep it going

 

[06294086]

I don't have much to add here other than to say that your assessment rings true for me, and that I'm thankful for your continually insightful commentary.

Thanks

Glad to see someone else agree with this "common sense" and sincerely admit it instead of going knee-jerk reaction and hitting me back.

 

[Sabot Cat]

Whoooo likes retcons?

[cricket chirping]

Well too bad, because a 24 seat parliament for China was ridiculous! It's been increased to 622 seats, although I'm still in the process of triple-checking the numbers and everything.

Thanks to eliphas8 for pointing this out.

Interesting, nice to see another TL that focused on China

But can you stop using Simplified Chinese please? Because firstly as it was a form of writing only appeared after PRC reigned, so it is inappropriate for the Chinese before the 40s to use up Simplified; secondly, which us quite personal actually, is that Simplified Chinese is a form of writing that just completely ignored the linguistic rule of Chinese language, as I am a ethnic Chinese and a lover of Chinese culture, I just dislike this form of writing.

But still, a good TL through, keep it going

Thanks, I appreciate your encouragement and nice comments; I hope you enjoy further updates.

Also from your user title, I'm guessing the establishment of an anti-Qing monarchy is an appealing prospect?

Mm, as for the use of Simplified Chinese, I'm not personally familiar with the language and I've relied on assistance for translation; are the characters on the flag Simplified?

Thanks

Glad to see someone else agree with this "common sense" and sincerely admit it instead of going knee-jerk reaction and hitting me back.

Mm, I didn't find anything antagonistic in your contributions to hit back at or have knee-jerk reactions to, so no thanks is necessary.

 

[Used-to-be Song Chinese]

Thanks, I appreciate your encouragement and nice comments; I hope you enjoy further updates.

Also from your user title, I'm guessing the establishment of an anti-Qing monarchy is an appealing prospect?

Mm, as for the use of Simplified Chinese, I'm not personally familiar with the language and I've relied on assistance for translation; are the characters on the flag Simplified?

The flag is fine, yet as I have mentioned earlier when you posted it on the Flag Thread before, that it is not a typical Chinese flag, as the symbolism and the structure is way too European actually, but no, that is Traditional Chinese, which is fine for me.

And if you cannot define the difference between the Simplified and the Traditional, just use Google Translate when you wanted to translate the words into Chinese, or I can offer help if you need it, I am a native speaker and I am ease to provide translation for you

For the sig, well I am deciding to change it, as I am not that hating Qing, instead I am more like depressing for the losing of the Traditional Chinese culture which has begun since the moment that the Qing emperor ordered every ethnic Chinese male have to adopt the Manchu hair style and dress code or else got beheaded It is more like a sentiment on the culture heritage that I and this generation is preserving, rather than a simple, idealistic political thought.

 

[deviatesfish]

Huh, that's interesting. Usually, I find no problems with writing in simplified in China, and it's usually the Taiwanese teachers I meet in the USA that get really hard on writing in simplified rather than traditional. Personally, I think simplified is great, but that's because it's my second language and a bother to learn to write. Though a lot of the Chinese I speak with usually say it's a good thing because it allows more people to be literate in Chinese. Interesting perspective though, I haven't actually met anyone face-to-face with that opinion. They usually just use it to back some kind of weird political agenda and that gets annoying after a while.

On that note, I was wondering if there would be some kind of reforms for Chinese language in some form of pinyin in this TL?

 

[Used-to-be Song Chinese]

Huh, that's interesting. Usually, I find no problems with writing in simplified in China, and it's usually the Taiwanese teachers I meet in the USA that get really hard on writing in simplified rather than traditional. Personally, I think simplified is great, but that's because it's my second language and a bother to learn to write. Though a lot of the Chinese I speak with usually say it's a good thing because it allows more people to be literate in Chinese. Interesting perspective though, I haven't actually met anyone face-to-face with that opinion. They usually just use it to back some kind of weird political agenda and that gets annoying after a while.

On that note, I was wondering if there would be some kind of reforms for Chinese language in some form of pinyin in this TL?

Chinese is a sophisticated, interesting language, and it is largely because the "zi", or the Chinese characters, are holding both vocal and connotational means, e.g. 心 , Chinese translation of Mind-heart, contained in 愛, or Love, because you cannot love without your heart and mind right? But in Simplified, 愛 becomes 爱, the mind and heart is gone, the meaning is lost; also, we got 鍾 and 鐘 in Traditional, which the former usually is used as surname, and the latter contains the meaning of Clock, but in Simplified, both are written as 钟 , which obviously would cause confusion when in communication, and people with either used 鍾 or 鐘 as surname would got embarrassed.

What I want to say is that, there do have a reason that the Chinese characters did not had big, nationwide changes after the sweeping unification of Qin dynasty.

 

[deviatesfish]

Well, this is a matter of opinion, so there's no right answer. Some people say it's good, some say it's bad, but it's not objective whether the switch to simplified is good or not on an emotional level as you put it. Cuz, you know, it's emotions.

Still, I think that for the purpose of the TL, it should be using traditional Chinese. Come a change of regime however, with new reforms, I think the likelihood of Chinese being simplified one way or another will be inevitable, since governments will eventually push for more people to be literate. On that level, you've got words like 廣 reduced to 广, and utility-wise, that's a great thing, or else you've got a bunch of people scratching their heads trying to remember the stroke order for a lot of words.

'Sides, if languages don't change, then we'd all be stuck with writing in old, old English or something.

 

[Used-to-be Song Chinese]

So let's clarify something: first, Chinese and English are two different systems, and that means things are radically different between simplifying Chinese and simplifying English, so you cannot just put them together to prove your point; second, I am not trying to oppose to any changes on the Chinese language, only if one can simplifying the zi and able to remain the meaning of the zi at the same time, and if you cannot keep the meaning, the zi contains no utility, thus the function of the language as a whole is negatively affected, and actually for thousand of years there were simplification on the zi, but it is a slow and natural change from the lower class of the society（e.g.衞→衛，豔→艷）, not a policy enforced by a strong government, like the Simplified I gave examples about at my last post, it did nothing to improve the utility of the Chinese writing, but just making it more confusing and inconvenient for people to communicate and study.

And if the Simplified Chinese was so effective at helping more people to become literate, then why do developed societies like Hong Kong and Taiwan will still used Traditional Chinese?

I am trying to be as calm and rational as I can, if I have offended you, I am really sorry about that.

 

[Sabot Cat]

The flag is fine, yet as I have mentioned earlier when you posted it on the Flag Thread before, that it is not a typical Chinese flag, as the symbolism and the structure is way too European actually, but no, that is Traditional Chinese, which is fine for me.

I maintain that the use of text on the flag is in line with the style of OTL Taiping flags, although I can see how the cross design is European; nonetheless I wasn't sure how else to represent that this is a Christian regime other than the cross, and I'm imagining that Chinese flag-makers would be faced with a similar conundrum.

And if you cannot define the difference between the Simplified and the Traditional, just use Google Translate when you wanted to translate the words into Chinese, or I can offer help if you need it, I am a native speaker and I am ease to provide translation for you

Mm, I appreciate that. What would Dakai Dynasty be in traditional characters? I'm unaware of the usage of Chinese characters outside of that part.

For the sig, well I am deciding to change it, as I am not that hating Qing, instead I am more like depressing for the losing of the Traditional Chinese culture which has begun since the moment that the Qing emperor ordered every ethnic Chinese male have to adopt the Manchu hair style and dress code or else got beheaded It is more like a sentiment on the culture heritage that I and this generation is preserving, rather than a simple, idealistic political thought.

Ah, I see.

On that note, I was wondering if there would be some kind of reforms for Chinese language in some form of pinyin in this TL?

It's a possibility, but I would want to be able to precisely articulate the essentials of the reforms, and I don't know enough about that subject right now to do it justice; I'm not ruling it out though.

Well, this is a matter of opinion, so there's no right answer. Some people say it's good, some say it's bad, but it's not objective whether the switch to simplified is good or not on an emotional level as you put it. Cuz, you know, it's emotions.

Still, I think that for the purpose of the TL, it should be using traditional Chinese. Come a change of regime however, with new reforms, I think the likelihood of Chinese being simplified one way or another will be inevitable, since governments will eventually push for more people to be literate. On that level, you've got words like 廣 reduced to 广, and utility-wise, that's a great thing, or else you've got a bunch of people scratching their heads trying to remember the stroke order for a lot of words.

'Sides, if languages don't change, then we'd all be stuck with writing in old, old English or something.

There's already been major pushes for wide-spread literacy starting with the beginning of Chancellor Wing's tenure, and although simplification of Chinese characters came up, the Imperial government ultimately decided against it because it would make the logistics of the literacy campaign more complex than it had to be.

 

[Seleucus]

On the simplified Chinese language thing: Apologies; I was the one who helped Sabot Cat with the language, and being Chinese-American, I go with simplified by default since that's what I learned (it didn't even occur to me until you brought it up.) So if anyone should take the blame for the mixup, that would be me.

Corrected version: Dakai Dynasty = 達開朝 in traditional Chinese; I believe that's the only use of simplified.

 

[Sabot Cat]

On the simplified Chinese language thing: Apologies; I was the one who helped Sabot Cat with the language, and being Chinese-American, I go with simplified by default since that's what I learned (it didn't even occur to me until you brought it up.) So if anyone should take the blame for the mixup, that would be me.

Corrected version: Dakai Dynasty = 達開朝 in traditional Chinese; I believe that's the only use of simplified.

Yaay, fixed, thank you

Also don't be sorry, everything's good, and it even prompted some interesting discussion on the language

 

[deviatesfish]

Hey, bringing up that language thing is pretty great.

Shows how interesting your TL is! Though, hopefully, this sort of discussion won't be cut off by the change in government in the TL. This should trigger some stranger reactions still!

Also, you shouldn't fret over such a thing, Seleucus. Chinese-Americans yay!

And if the Simplified Chinese was so effective at helping more people to become literate, then why do developed societies like Hong Kong and Taiwan will still used Traditional Chinese?

The debate on this has given a lot of 'evidence' to discredit both sides, though as a user of the language, I found it easier and so did many of my fellow students when given a choice. It's personal experience, but with the sort of evidence used by both sides, I'd rather use personal experience.

As to why Taiwan and Hong Kong use traditional, isn't it political now? Though since you seem very against government backed change, I guess there's political reasons for your view point too? I don't actually care where the change comes from as long as it's good. I don't see why government backing is a bad thing, but I guess that's a totally different thing and it doesn't really belong here anyway.

If we had to wait thousands of years for Chinese to simplify into a more modern form, with so many people resisting it at the same time... oh boy. Can't blame me for being thankful for easier Chinese while still in school. I probably can't wait a thousand more years for Chinese to be simplified naturally, as you say.

 

[Used-to-be Song Chinese]

Well, government change is not inherently a bad thing, but it must be careful enough such that the comprehendsiveness of the language is preserved. Seemingly Simplified Chinese had the comprehendsiveness affected. It is not a matter of opinion, but a matter of fact.

Why waiting thousands of years to change is a bad thing, when the change that we see now is a bad one?

 

[Sabot Cat]

 

[Used-to-be Song Chinese]

Let's see... Great Unity sounded like rightists.

 

[deviatesfish]

Well, government change is not inherently a bad thing, but it must be careful enough such that the comprehendsiveness of the language is preserved. Seemingly Simplified Chinese had the comprehendsiveness affected. It is not a matter of opinion, but a matter of fact.

Why waiting thousands of years to change is a bad thing, when the change that we see now is a bad one?

In a word, yes. It is an opinion to say that the change is an absolute negative. Why is waiting one thousand years a bad thing? Because there are always outside forces no matter how isolationist we Chinese become, and they will force us to change whether we like it or not. This is an eventuality. Besides, for far too many families, simplified is the first language they were able to read in, this isn't opinion either. By the vast majority, people did not learn traditional and then switch over to simplified, and none of them have reason to revert to a more complex, slower writing style once they did finally become literate.

To be honest, in China, I don't any of this comprehendsiveness problem you are talking about. What is it? People comprehend simplified just fine and the only place I've encountered comprehension problems is in the USA, but that's usually because Chinese is usually a third language and both traditional and simplified seem to be equally incomprehensible in that respect to students.

 

[Sabot Cat]

Let's see... Great Unity sounded like rightists.

They caucused regularly with the more leftist Agrarian Bloc and sought progressive reforms, although they did take over many Royalist Party seats due to the expanded franchise.

 

[Used-to-be Song Chinese]

In a word, yes. It is an opinion to say that the change is an absolute negative. Why is waiting one thousand years a bad thing? Because there are always outside forces no matter how isolationist we Chinese become, and they will force us to change whether we like it or not. This is an eventuality. Besides, for far too many families, simplified is the first language they were able to read in, this isn't opinion either. By the vast majority, people did not learn traditional and then switch over to simplified, and none of them have reason to revert to a more complex, slower writing style once they did finally become literate.

To be honest, in China, I don't any of this comprehendsiveness problem you are talking about. What is it? People comprehend simplified just fine and the only place I've encountered comprehension problems is in the USA, but that's usually because Chinese is usually a third language and both traditional and simplified seem to be equally incomprehensible in that respect to students.

Well, what I am trying to say all the time is that what the Chinese language ought to be, and that the Simplified had affected this "ought-ness". If you are alright with the Simplified, it's ok, it's none of my business. Sorry that I may have misinterpreted my thought, and possibly yours, at the first place.