That Wacky Redhead

[Glen]

On Jane Fonda - I think it would take some very, very strong and specifically targeted butterflies to take her out career-wise when it has already made a significant change in her favor. Fonda will not have the PR issues she had IOTL, and she will have a very successful career. This is one thing I am afraid is pretty inevitable barring some serious monkeying - basically a second POD.

 

[Richter10]

Hum... maybe a chance of an upcoming big-budget adaptation of Thomas J. Ryan's "The Adolescence of P1" (of 1977)?

 

[phx1138]

this timeline hasn't really focused on literature to any great extent

I, for one, have no problem with it. I find myself wondering if that would mean "serious literature" or the likes of Robbins & Suzanne, or Butterworth (better known as W.E.B. Griffin & cowriter of the M*A*S*H novels), or Pendleton. (Don was well on his way to fame in '70 with Bolan...but without The Quagmire {for which I took Bolan's War as allegory}, he might not be, or might feel less inclined to write more. If true, a switch to Joe Copp PI novels might be due soon.)

Can I suggest a small cheat? Mention (in passing) films based on non-OTL books? Or real writers, like Isaac, Arthur, Beam, & Robert A., selling better because of TTL's movies?

Obviously, a prototype is much harder to field than one for SPS/Microwave.

Prototype is still impossible today. In the '70s, even moreso.

No, Sellers very much shied away from dramatic roles IOTL (Quilty in Lolita is about as close as he came). I'm allowing Fouche for two reasons: he's in a very desperate place at this point in his career, and needs the work; and he'll be allowed by Kubrick to play the character in a very dark comedic vein.

I did not know he avoided serious stuff. Tho with his success in comedy, I guess, "if it ain't broke..."...

I'm willing to accept that people would watch war films because it encapsulates the "glory days". Why else would period pieces be so popular in Britain?

A valid point, & IRL, there are many reasons war films get made. As said, in-TL, it's a matter of creative approach. I guess, it's me thinking, would I make a war film in this period or not? Especially given the failure of "M*A*S*H". OTOH, that was an anti-war statement OTL; TTL, what seems to be criticism of "the greatest generation" (tho the term hadn't arisen yet...) would probably not go over so well. (So, frex, "Kelly's Heroes" would likely also bomb, if made now TTL.)

Funny you should say that...

That will require further investigation on my part.

To be clear, beyond advocating for Beam becoming better known, & classic SF getting more attention, I'm not advocating in particular. I'll say, tho, The Iron Heel could be AH SF, almost; it's a fascinating treatment of a dystopia. (It fails on its economics, tho--but you have to think about it to realize why.) It's a bit dark for TTL, IMO, unless you want a cautionary tale. The others are pretty awful. (I once came across a list of Canadian SF novels of the 19th Century, none of which I've ever heard of, & apparently rightly so. That Quebec one was a fantastic "Independent Quebec conquers the Martians" kind of tale, as it was described, while Copper Cylinder was tedious {I know, I actually read it} & less well done than Wells' Hollow Earth.) I won't defend Burroughs becoming bigger, either; John Carter is pretty cardboard IMO. So, too, Kim Kinnison.

 

[NCW8]

That is a very fine suggestion, but the seasons are on the shorter side (only 13 episodes each), and extending them to a workable length for American consumption might capsize the intention to maintain strict historical accuracy (which is admirable, but definitely not something that Americans cared about, even with as sacrosanct a topic as WWII, until the 1990s). Also, I can't help but think that inevitable comparisons to Hogan's Heroes might emerge (yes, they're very different - but executives might not think so).

That's a shame. By "strict histroical accuracy" I guess that you mean that there would have to be more American POWs.

The minister in question was part of the Tory government elected in 1970 IOTL, and telling you now would thus prematurely reveal the results of that election ITTL. Therefore, I behoove you to wait for the very next update, which will reveal those results. At that point, I'll allow you to infer his career trajectory ITTL.

Ah well, it was worth a try . He would probably do something to get himself fired anyway - IOTL he was actually fired twice by the BBC and then they gave him a tv series.

Here's one of his tv sketches - an interview with the Bee Gees which gives you some idea of what he used to do on his radio show. And here he is on the Parkinson talk show (Michael Parkinson was THE british talk show host of the seventies). If you're wondering about the line describing a talkshow host being attacked by an emu, it refers to this interview with Rod Hull.

Just a final note that Kenny Everett seems to have played an important role in getting Bohemian Rhapsody released as a single. He also gave William Shatner's version of Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds some air play (as part of his "Bottom 30").

It was also he who proposed The Two Ronnies as progenitor of the "Captain Kirk Interrupts" parody.

And a very good suggestion it was. I could see that sketch happening on Morecombe and Wise as well, with Kirk and Spock interupting one of Ernie's little plays. I don't think that Mike Yarwood ever impersonated Kirk or Spock, but he might have had a go if Star Trek was a bigger hit (as it is TTL)

Yes, I've read the same, and apparently it's true, if Nigel is to be trusted.

Of course I can be trusted However, I have to admit that it's more of a case that I read the same thing, but many years ago - I was a little young to pay much attention when BBC2 started broadcasting.

Cheers,
Nigel.

 

[Thande]

And a very good suggestion it was. I could see that sketch happening on Morecombe and Wise as well, with Kirk and Spock interupting one of Ernie's little plays. I don't think that Mike Yarwood ever impersonated Kirk or Spock, but he might have had a go if Star Trek was a bigger hit (as it is TTL)

I don't think Eric and Ernie would have done a sketch about Star Trek, it's not their style. The Two Ronnies tended to do the more up-to-date stuff, while Eric and Ernie's parodies were almost always about classic films and musicals from the fifties that they (and much of the audience) watched growing up.

 

[Thande]

Also I haven't yet praised Brainbin for the update in question--while I did help him out, a lot of it is original research on his part, and very well researched it is too. I always like using working titles as alternate titles when I do art/pop culture stuff myself (though it's easy to overuse--a lot of these titles were working ones because they couldn't think of anything better at the time ). Using The Library Mob for Last of the Summer Wine is eminently plausible though because apparently it was even on the shooting scripts and was changed at the last moment. Funny how they came up with the much better OTL title just on the spur of the moment. Anyway, if you want the show to stay significantly different from OTL, you can butterfly away Michael Bates' untimely death from cancer and have him remain as Blamire--which of course means that Brian Wilde won't join the cast as his replacement Foggy, so Wilde will go on to have a different comedy role (probably just as iconic) after Porridge concludes and he's out of a job.

(You might want to mention in a footnote that Those Were The Days is TTL's equivalent of All in the Family--I know you said it's the American remake of Till Death Do Us Part just the same, but few people in the US seem to realise that All in the Family was a foreign remake in the first place).

 

[Glen]

Thande's point about letting the reader know those were the days was I all in the family version from this timeline in that both were inspired by a British television series is a good idea. I know I did not know that until Brame been educated me here.

 

[NCW8]

I don't think Eric and Ernie would have done a sketch about Star Trek, it's not their style. The Two Ronnies tended to do the more up-to-date stuff, while Eric and Ernie's parodies were almost always about classic films and musicals from the fifties that they (and much of the audience) watched growing up.

Not a sketch about Star Trek, but a sketch which is interupted by the Star Trek characters. I admit, they would be far more likely to do that if they could actually get Shatner and Nimoy to appear - so it isn't very likely.

Cheers,
Nigel.

 

[Thande]

Not a sketch about Star Trek, but a sketch which is interupted by the Star Trek characters. I admit, they would be far more likely to do that if they could actually get Shatner and Nimoy to appear - so it isn't very likely.

Cheers,
Nigel.

Oho, I see what you mean. Yes, they might do that, and it could happen. Their producer, John Ammonds, was famous in the business for being able to get anyone as a guest star, no exceptions.* Eddie Braben says in his book that sometimes he half suspected that Ammonds had a collection of blackmail photos on every great theatrical actor and TV superstar in the United Kingdom. Getting Shatner and Nimoy would be hard but if anyone could do it, it would be Ammonds.

They would probably have them interrupt the most incongruously olde-world setting/parody possible, something from the "Singing in the Rain" era perhaps...

* The only time he failed was when he tried to get Prince Charles. And even then apparently Charles himself was willing but the government advised him not to take the risk.

 

[NCW8]

Oho, I see what you mean. Yes, they might do that, and it could happen. Their producer, John Ammonds, was famous in the business for being able to get anyone as a guest star, no exceptions.* Eddie Braben says in his book that sometimes he half suspected that Ammonds had a collection of blackmail photos on every great theatrical actor and TV superstar in the United Kingdom. Getting Shatner and Nimoy would be hard but if anyone could do it, it would be Ammonds.

They would probably have them interrupt the most incongruously olde-world setting/parody possible, something from the "Singing in the Rain" era perhaps...

With Spock wearing a woolly hat to cover his ears ?

The best way for it to happen would be if the actors were already in the UK for a Convention. It seems that James Doohan and George Takei did attend a Star Trek Convention in the UK in 1974 OTL, so it's not impossible.

* The only time he failed was when he tried to get Prince Charles. And even then apparently Charles himself was willing but the government advised him not to take the risk.

<Close up on Prince Charles>
Charles: I appeared in an Ernie Wise Play and look what happened to me!

<Pull back to reveal Charles driving a rag-and-bone cart>


It's a shame - it might have actually improved Charly's image. More people used to watch the Morcambe and Wise Christmas show than the Queen's Speech ... Ah - I see what the problem was !

Anyway, if you want the show to stay significantly different from OTL, you can butterfly away Michael Bates' untimely death from cancer and have him remain as Blamire--which of course means that Brian Wilde won't join the cast as his replacement Foggy, so Wilde will go on to have a different comedy role (probably just as iconic) after Porridge concludes and he's out of a job.

You know, I've only just realised that Mr Barraclough and Foggy Dewhurst were played by the same actor. Now that is slow on the uptake.

If we could put in requests to butterfly away the early deaths of British comic actors then I would nominate Richard Beckinsale. Sadly his heart condition seems to have been congenital, so probably can't be altered.

Cheers,
Nigel.

 

[Thande]

You know, I've only just realised that Mr Barraclough and Foggy Dewhurst were played by the same actor. Now that is slow on the uptake

Well he does look very different with and without glasses...though his voice is exactly the same, which can lead to some incongrunuity if you listen to either show with the visuals off.

And of course as well as playing Blamire, Michael Bates was also Rangi in It Ain't Half Hot Mum, but one could definitely be forgiven for not making that connection given the whole makeup controversy

 

[vultan]

Due to my lack of knowledge on anything related to British television, I can't really say much. That being said, interesting update!

 

[Thande]

Due to my lack of knowledge on anything related to British television, I can't really say much. That being said, interesting update!

Pretty much all the programmes we've mentioned have plenty of clips on Youtube if you want to put some faces to the names and so forth.

 

[pbaustin2]

Don't forget Tommy Cooper.

"How did Tommy Cooper die?

Just like that.

 

[NCW8]

And of course as well as playing Blamire, Michael Bates was also Rangi in It Ain't Half Hot Mum, but one could definitely be forgiven for not making that connection given the whole makeup controversy

That one I did know. I wouldn't say it was the most controversial case of blacking-up. I felt that he handled the charcater sympathetically.

Don't forget Tommy Cooper.

"How did Tommy Cooper die?

Just like that.

Sadly that's true. Tommy Cooper had a heart attack and died while performing on live television. The audience and his assistant thought that it was part of the act.

Cheers,
Nigel.

 

[unclepatrick]

Hum... maybe a chance of an upcoming big-budget adaptation of Thomas J. Ryan's "The Adolescence of P1" (of 1977)?

If I remember right, There was a Canadian adaption of The Adolescence of P1 in the early to mid 1970's. It was low budget and only deal with the first part of the book.

OK I was wrong it was made in 1984 and Called Hide and Seek

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0256073/

Still it one of the forgoten TV sci fi
alone with the Half hour Pilot of The House with a Clock in the Wall based on the John Bellairs
The Finish Lord of the RIng adaption call the Hobbits
and the Play of the Day two part adaption of William Gibson Neuromancer
All in the OTL

 

[Glen]

On butterflying away early deaths - anything is possible but Brainbin has a pretty causal timeline here with little in the way of secondary chaos effects.

Murder, Accidents, and Infections should be pretty easy to butterfly away if desired.
Heart Attacks and Cancer less so without a causal lifestyle change, though the timing of death could be different by months even a year or two. Once we get into the 1980s with some people liviing different lives even more is possible.

 

[Glen]

On butterflying away early deaths - anything is possible but Brainbin has a pretty causal timeline here with little in the way of secondary chaos effects.

Murder, Accidents, and Infections should be pretty easy to butterfly away if desired.
Heart Attacks and Cancer less so without a causal lifestyle change, though the timing of death could be different by months even a year or two. Once we get into the 1980s with some people liviing different lives even more is possible.

Oh one thing you can do with these is have a detected sentinal event that lead to earlier detection and treatment and that could make a significant difference in life expectancy.

 

[phx1138]

you can butterfly away Michael Bates' untimely death from cancer

Unless that's caused by something he stops doing after POD, I don't see how you manage that...

Murder, Accidents, and Infections should be pretty easy to butterfly away if desired.

Or, one might argue, butterfly in, if desired... (Did somebody say "Jane Fonda"?)

 

[vultan]

On butterflying away early deaths - anything is possible but Brainbin has a pretty causal timeline here with little in the way of secondary chaos effects.

I'm not sure I agree with your analysis here- after all, Brainbin managed to elect Hubert Humphrey president in his story using "secondary chaos effects" sprouting from his pop culture POD!