Lateknight
Banned
If French didn't lose so many wars this stereotype wouldn't exist. It probably wouldn't even that hard for this to happen the wars they lost were near run things.
Switch Perceptions of French and German Military Prowess
- Thread starter Delta Force
- Start date
Driftless
Donor
Even though Napoleon eventually lost on a grand scale, he had enough grand scale victories where his army and his method are the adjective for their era.
Where the wheels got pretty wobbly, was the Franco-Prussian War. Make the POD alter the outcome there?
Lateknight
Banned
That could be done I don't know much about the Franco-Prussian war but it seems like I could ended better for France what happened Otl was a worst case scenario for France.
Interesting quote given that they won most of them. Have a look at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milita...a/File:Frontiere_francaise_985_1947_small.gif
The began with a much smaller "state" and they're stille here and larger 1500 years later.
Lateknight
Banned
It's the recent ones that matter though it's sort of funny how a few defeats basically erases centuries of victory in the publics view.
Reverse holds for HYW. Even though French won that war all people remember is Agincourt.
People pay more attention to the news, where the French are more militaristic, and the German military really sucks (we all know the broomstick fiasco, right?)
........................................................................................
If all you wanted to change was perception, they all you need to change is media coverage. Send the right European journalists to cover the exploits of white, European-born French soldiers crushing colonial rebellions during the 1920s and 1930s. Publish lots of photos of white, French troops abusing rebels, burning rebel camps and marching captured rebels into prison.
Meanwhile, quietly ignore the hundreds of thousands of hours of scouting and patrolling and intelligence-gathering by French-allied native forces (Druze, Gwoums, Zoaves, etc.) to pin-point rebel forces.
White, French troops would look victorious.
it's like the romans and hannibal.
take a beaten enemy, praise him, make him look more dangerous, build him up to be a legend no matter the failings. thus making yourself look even grander for beating that enemy.
It's
Banned
I think the scathing assessment of French military prowess by anglophone countries compared to say, Italians, is that italians generally do not describe themselves as having the best army in the world; the French have this self perception which is frankly ludicrous given their military record- and they have been conquered many times, despite for centuries being both the richest and most populous nation in Europe. Incidentally, these conquerors included the English (later British) , who did not seem to find the lack of a land bridge insurmountable when invading France and campaigning in Europe generally. Or crossing much larger bodies of water to build the (by far) largest empire.
CthulhuFhtagn
Banned
Agreed. Sure, France had the best army for centuries, but it hasn't had the best army in the world since 1871. It's like if the British still believed that they had the most powerful navy in the world after 1945, or Americans in 2080 still believing that we have the most powerful military in the world.
Or the fact that Anglophones tend not to fight Italians while they were frequently fighting French.
marathag
Banned
After 1871, the Japanese sent many of their French advisers home and got German ones instead.
They wanted to learn from the Best.
Saphroneth
Banned
I don't think it's that, since the most recent war we had with the French lasted about two decades and involved most of the planet...
Delta Force
Banned
However, they retained their French naval advisers until the 1890s before going to the British to request assistance in developing their navy.
usertron2020
Donor
I do not see the switch as viable. The French are the French who sent hundreds of thousands if not 1,000,000+ into the trenches of WWI never to return. They are the French who as the Free French had the Germans every bit as terrified of being captured by as the Soviets. They are the French whose idea of "peace-keeping" is to kick-ass and take numbers, which stands in stark contrast to the Italians, Dutch, Spaniards, and Belgians. They are the French who did most of the real fighting in the Crimean War. They are the French of Joan of Arc, and they are the French who WON the Hundred Years War. They are the (Norman) French who were the last to conquer England.
Oh yeah, and if you want to say that these are only the exploits of the French Army, not the French Navy?
At Yorktown
the British could not retreat
Bottled up by Washington
And the French Fleet!
They are the French whose idea of "peace-keeping" is to kick-ass and take numbers, which stands in stark contrast to the Italians, Dutch, Spaniards, and Belgians. They are the French who did most of the real fighting in the Crimean War. They are the French of Joan of Arc, and they are the French who WON the Hundred Years War. They are the (Norman) French who were the last to conquer England.Oh yeah, and if you want to say that these are only the exploits of the French Army, not the French Navy?
At Yorktown
the British could not retreat
Bottled up by Washington
And the French Fleet!
Yes, but prior to that England and France were frequently at war or Cold war. Looking at history English/British are more likely to be at war with France than Italy (or anyone that later formed Italy)
It's
Banned
In Ww1 the French had plenty of help from British and empire soldiers, while the Royal Navy was quietly sStrangling Germany through economic blockade.I do not see the switch as viable. The French are the French who sent hundreds of thousands if not 1,000,000+ into the trenches of WWI never to return. They are the French who as the Free French had the Germans every bit as terrified of being captured by as the Soviets.
Oh yeah, and if you want to say that these are only the exploits of the French Army, not the French Navy?
At Yorktown
the British could not retreat
Bottled up by Washington
And the French Fleet!
Glad you qualified the Norman (ie not french- they were bloody (and lucky) Vikings for gods sake, not franks or Gauls) conquest. In the American woi, France was reduced to the role of spoiler; not a serious rival in the empire game. It's a sad commentary on France's military prowess if their backing of mostly British descended colonists successfully rebelling against British government forces is regarded as a French military victory!
usertron2020
Donor
I do not see the switch as viable. The French are the French who sent hundreds of thousands if not 1,000,000+ into the trenches of WWI never to return. They are the French who as the Free French had the Germans every bit as terrified of being captured by as the Soviets.
Oh yeah, and if you want to say that these are only the exploits of the French Army, not the French Navy?
At Yorktown
the British could not retreat
Bottled up by Washington
And the French Fleet!
For WWI you failed to mention the USA, Italy, Japan, and Russia. In terms of the level of fight in them, which is what I believe we are talking about, the 3rd Republic French of WWI had plenty of it.
The distinction is not absolute. The Normans had been in France as settlers (by agreement with Charles the Simple, or Straightforward) for some time by 1066.
Uh, incredibly disagree. French military supplies and $$$ kept the Colonies afloat long after exhaustion without their help would have brought the Americans to heel (probably after the 1776 campaign). The fact that the French didn't do more was because they couldn't, not because they didn't try.
While the British faced a real possible of invasion, risked an Irish revolt, found themselves locked into a heavily fortified New York City that could not be exploited, had Cornwallis running all over the American Southern interior with little support, the French and Spanish fleets sortied and free to operate, Gibraltar under siege, Florida falling to the Spaniards, African colonies being lost, India at risk to an unusually aggressive French admiral, the British had obsessed from Day One to Day Last (meaning Yorktown) on maintaining the blockade of the 13 Colonies and destroying supplies in the West Indies destined for Washington's Army.
For a WWII example, its kind of like a strategy of building an Atlantic Wall on steroids and leaving the Luftwaffe plus security and static divisions to cover the whole of the Eastern Front.
The RW Americans were not about to be landing in Southampton. But the Franco-Spaniards were stopped only by disease, and that not even Lord North was stupid and arrogant enough to abandon Southern England coastal fortifications and send the English Militia to deal with troublesome Irish.
1) And...?
2) And...?
3) The woman who reduced the English to beef-eating surrender monkeys
4) The war that produced the Black Prince and Henry V also produced Charles the Wise, Joan, and Charles VII
5) The Royal Navy didn't fight WWI on the high seas by itself
Shame on me for missing the thousand pound gorilla in the room...Revolutionary and Napoleonic France. YES, they lost in the end. But it took a full generation to run the French to ground, and mainly on the basis of one man's megalomania of never being able to say "enough", and his enemies' skills (after 1808) at finally learning how to exploit that fact. Imagine what we'd have to say about the Imperial Germans if they had conquered BOTH France and Russia and WWI had lasted in one form or another until 1939!
for missing the thousand pound gorilla in the room...Revolutionary and Napoleonic France. YES, they lost in the end. But it took a full generation to run the French to ground, and mainly on the basis of one man's megalomania of never being able to say "enough", and his enemies' skills (after 1808) at finally learning how to exploit that fact. Imagine what we'd have to say about the Imperial Germans if they had conquered BOTH France and Russia and WWI had lasted in one form or another until 1939!
Last edited:
marathag
Banned
I do not see the switch as viable. The French are the French who sent hundreds of thousands if not 1,000,000+ into the trenches of WWI never to return. They are the French who as the Free French had the Germans every bit as terrified of being captured by as the Soviets.
When did they claim to be the most awesome warriors in recent memory?
Really, if you want better French reputation in the USA, you need a larger French force in the Korean War, not kicking US forces from French territory in 1966, and a larger force than the UK in the Gulf War, and showing up for Iraq.
It's often underestimated how much de Gaulle hurt US relations and views of the French.
That's not what I meant...I mean the reality nowadays is like the opposite of what the stereotypes are I think...