Spanish Civil War: WI the Anarchists go it alone?

[Aranfan]

Anarchist Catalonia. It's generally agreed here that the most direct reason for their loss was that they were back-stabbed by the Communists.


What if the Anarchists hadn't joined with the Republican government and thereby put themselves in a position to be back-stabbed? Or if they had broke completely with the Communists after the Barcelona May Days?


How would the results bode for WWII?

 

[yourworstnightmare]

Well, if the Anarchists hadn't joined the Republicans, they'd soon find themselves fighting both Nationalists and Republicans.

 

[Cook]

Well, if the Anarchists hadn't joined the Republicans, they'd soon find themselves fighting both Nationalists and Republicans.

So no change there then.

 

[TheCrow__]

Why don't you alter events so the anarchists and communist do ally. And there is no back-stabbing. Now that would be interesting. Anarchists and communists coming together to liberate Spain from fascism, statism, and capitalism. It could have the abilities to become a good anarcho-commie country that lasts. I'm more down for this than anarchists having to battle it out alone.

 

[Aranfan]

Why don't you alter events so the anarchists and communist do ally. And there is no back-stabbing. Now that would be interesting. Anarchists and communists coming together to liberate Spain from fascism, statism, and capitalism. It could have the abilities to become a good anarcho-commie country that lasts. I'm more down for this than anarchists having to battle it out alone.

Marxists are statist. When Bakunin accused Marx about being an Authoritarian, Marx responded by enthusing about hierarchy.

So no change there then.

Well, the Anarchists will be preparing to fight both, instead of only the fascists.

 

[TheCrow__]

Marxists are statist. When Bakunin accused Marx about being an Authoritarian, Marx responded by enthusing about hierarchy.



Well, the Anarchists will be preparing to fight both, instead of only the fascists.

I know Marxist are statist. That's why I'm saying it would be far more interesting for you to have the anarchists and communists in Spain to come together under one banner of true freedom. They could have the opportunity to create a truly free society. I have no clue how you could achieve this but I'm sure some well to do propaghanda, the evil of fascism, the struggling economy, and the disaster of the USSR. Could help institute this.

 

[Aranfan]

I know Marxist are statist. That's why I'm saying it would be far more interesting for you to have the anarchists and communists in Spain to come together under one banner of true freedom. They could have the opportunity to create a truly free society. I have no clue how you could achieve this but I'm sure some well to do propaghanda, the evil of fascism, the struggling economy, and the disaster of the USSR. Could help institute this.

The hierarchy of the Communist parties has Stalin in charge of the purse and supplies. I'm not seeing any way for this to happen.

 

[Sachyriel]

Atomic Weapons might allow anarchists to win... I'm just sayin' it would, not saying it's entirely plausible but you know it would....

 

[mrmandias]

a long term anarchist, Communist state? Right.

The butterflies would include a Randian Nazi Germany, where the jews get tax breaks to eliminate themselves, plus St. Buddha is made Pope.

 

[Goldstein]

I know Marxist are statist. That's why I'm saying it would be far more interesting for you to have the anarchists and communists in Spain to come together under one banner of true freedom. They could have the opportunity to create a truly free society. I have no clue how you could achieve this but I'm sure some well to do propaghanda, the evil of fascism, the struggling economy, and the disaster of the USSR. Could help institute this.

Setting aside what you understand for "true freedom" (for a start, Communism in that time meant Stalinism for most of them, and they were responsible for most of the atrocities in the Republican side), this is absolute ASB. There's no way you can alter events so Anarchists and Communists stop hating each other to the core. The Anarchists were as anti-communists as anti-fascists. You are deliberately ignoring the post-2nd International political climate, and that in Spain, anarchism had filo-Trotskyst sympathies, not without a reason. And even if ASB technology brainwash them so they cooperate, they're still not strong enough to overcome the Republic, let alone the Nationalist side.

Then again, I guess there's a way you can have an Anarchist Spain, but it would take a pre-Civil War POD, without any doubt.

As for the WI, then the Anarchist would be crushed by the Republican government, which would divide the Republican effort and guarantee an earlier Nationalist victory. The long-term effects would be mostly limited to Spain, and they wouldn't be very drastic unless some key Francoist figure gets off the equation.

 

[Aranfan]

As for the WI, then the Anarchist would be crushed by the Republican government, which would divide the Republican effort and guarantee an earlier Nationalist victory. The long-term effects would be mostly limited to Spain, and they wouldn't be very drastic unless some key Francoist figure gets off the equation.

How are they going to pay for it? At the start of the Civil War the Anarchists were in control of the Spanish Treasury. The Anarchists were the ones guarding the Republican gold reserves that were used to pay the USSR for arms that never went to the Anarchists.

 

[TheCrow__]

Spread Kropotkin's ideas to Spain some how. Maybe have him migrate there after he escapes from the Peter and Paul. Possibly you could have him set up a commune based on his principles. Then there could be a seperate side the (anarcho-communists) in the Spanish Civil War. This could cause a large ammout of anarchists to join them as well as communists. Seeing as they are fighting the same establishments. Perhaps you could have the communists see the tyranny of the Communist Party under Stalin. And see that true communism can only go hand in hand with anarchism. As many had said before. All it would take is for more support for the cause. I could definately see lots of intellectuals on their side as well as the people. Fuck even bring Makhno into the picture.

 

[Urban fox]

Anarchists are the main reason the republic lost the civil war they didnt play well with other and were useless in combat expanding their role hands Franco a victory quicker that is all.

For all their flaws the Stalinist factions were better armed and far more capable in combat.

 

[Aranfan]

Anarchists are the main reason the republic lost the civil war they didnt play well with other and were useless in combat expanding their role hands Franco a victory quicker that is all.

For all their flaws the Stalinist factions were better armed and far more capable in combat.

Durruti was useless in combat? Or at the beginning when it was only the Anarchists who had prepared for the army coup at all?

And you don't think that the Stalinists were better armed only because Stalin was the only one who would sell the Republicans anything?

 

[Goldstein]

How are they going to pay for it? At the start of the Civil War the Anarchists were in control of the Spanish Treasury. The Anarchists were the ones guarding the Republican gold reserves that were used to pay the USSR for arms that never went to the Anarchists.

Still, the disbalance of resources and organization in both sides would doom the Anarchist try. They need to get stronger in all Spain, not just Catalonia, where they're literally surrounded by Republican territory.

 

[Aranfan]

Still, the disbalance of resources and organization in both sides would doom the Anarchist try. They need to get stronger in all Spain, not just Catalonia, where they're literally surrounded by Republican territory.

The Anarchists also controlled most of Aragon. In fact, almost all of the Republican territory in the north east of Spain was Anarchist.

 

[Goldstein]

The Anarchists also controlled most of Aragon. In fact, almost all of the Republican territory in the north east of Spain was Anarchist.

True, but Aragon means very little in terms of manpower, and it served as a frontline for the most part.

 

[Aranfan]

True, but Aragon means very little in terms of manpower, and it served as a frontline for the most part.

So, in fact, the Anarchists in the North East weren't surrounded by the Republicans?

 

[Goldstein]

So, in fact, the Anarchists in the North East weren't surrounded by the Republicans?

I don't know to which extent Aragon was in Anarchist hads, and I don't know if Aragon was fully Anarchist, but if it was the case, it wouldn't make a difference regarding the fate of the Anarchists. They would face two fronts; one against the Nationalists, definited by the Ebro River, and against the Republicans, going north From Castellón and Teruel. Given the strategic importance of the northeast, in terms of industrial power and (for the Nationalists) setting a single Northern front and definitely isolating the Republican areas in the Basque Country and Asturias, that's a given, I suspect.

 

[Aranfan]

Do you think this would result in the Nationalists and Republicans working together to crush the Anarchists?

That would have immense political effects. Anarchism was still respected as a form of Socialism at the time, and if the Communists worked with Fascists to put it down, then that would have a huge political effect.