Never thought about that, but your absolutely right. Majority of the high-level scientists and intellectuals probably died quickly. Except for the universities and such in isolated college towns.
So I'm nearing the end of the 3rd Emberverse book and I really dislike them
- Thread starter Drachasor
- Start date
Never thought about that, but your absolutely right. Majority of the high-level scientists and intellectuals probably died quickly. Except for the universities and such in isolated college towns.
I wish stirling added more of Corvallis viewpoint to the story since realistically there a big part of Montival
That wouldn't meet his goal in the series. A Wiccan wank. Even former core groups like the Bearkiller A-listers have been marginalized.
Remember: Nobody "switched" from Democratic systems. The Old System was just gone.
There was nothing, and then the Founders came along with little islands of Authority and Order in the postChange madness.
The Founders simply didn't restructure their newly-established systems to democratic ones (though a couple at least thought about it).
There was nothing, and then the Founders came along with little islands of Authority and Order in the postChange madness.
The Founders simply didn't restructure their newly-established systems to democratic ones (though a couple at least thought about it).
But that's not true in all cases. Iowa and Kirksville (why southern missouri is all a death zone is beyond me if Iowa could survive I35 from Kansas City metro area that leads across flat lands straight to Iowa, then the Ozarks should have whethered I44 just fine) should still have been republics. Neither of these areas suffered the total break down of civil authority. Neither should the small towns in Kansas, Nebraska and the west. at worst they should have gone through rule by "emergency committees" for a while then returned to elected governments.
Stirling jumped the shark once again with Iowa. Formal dress being denim bib overalls and feed store ball caps? That's just shows how little he understands the culture of the areas outside of his little New Mexico world.
How did you justify that? Off the top of my head it seems real rough.
The place is fifteen hours easy biking from Miami. A fit biker might be able do that in a day if they were desperate, or more likely two, and there's maybe a hundred thousand such people in the city. Even on foot it's only three-and-a-half days' walk for a healthy person with a dying city behind them. In March weather I'd have guessed anyone who thought to pack enough water, was less than obese, and tried would make it to Key West.
I'm curious, just how much fish comes into Key West?
Edit: Was that the game with that loopy "Kingdom of Los Angeles" in San Francisco?
Ayup.
I am curious about your so-called Conch Republic. Would you mind sharing your thoughts on how they'd manage to survive?
A little reflection suggests my estimate was a little excessive - more like two long days by bike and at least five on foot, even for the athletic - but that still seems awfully close to a relatively fit city like Miami. Especially since (to the extent of my admittedly limited knowledge) the Keys mostly import food down the highway.
I mean, obviously those bridges are just begging to be cut, blockaded, or at least defended, but I'm curious how you arranged it.
Well I didn't create the kingdom, I imagine they destroyed the bridges and defended their shores. Chaos on the mainland meaning not many came looking. Once the dying times are over the conch kingdom spread to outposts
I've never read any of the Emberverse books, and I've read almost all of Stirling's other books and enjoyed most of them (the ISOT trilogy and Peshawar Lancers are among my favorite books). The whole concept and scenario of the Emberverse was deeply offputting to me from the beginning so I never summoned up the interest even to crack open one of the books at the bookstore. It's too bad that Emberverse is about all Stirling seems to write anymore, but I guess one has to go where the money is.
If you liked ISOT, the. You might want to read Emberverse regardless, there are lots of points of contact between the two series and one huge one at the end of the 6th one I believe.
Just finished Lord of Mountains. Anyone else got it, yet?
We finally get the big open field battle we've been promised. 150 pages of it.
We finally get the big open field battle we've been promised. 150 pages of it.
My review of the new book, commentary to follow:
Edit: Ouch! Before I screw up anyone's day, I removed some spoilers.
Warning: I assume that, if you are reading this, you have read the Emberverse books up to Tears of the Sun.
Spoilers may await.
Let me lead off by saying that I love the Emberverse. It has it's flaws (more on that, later), but it is one of the best series of our time, and is head and shoulders above the competition. I've always like Stirling's writing style (with a few minor reservations), from the 5th Millenium books on up to today, and his books are always entertaining.
The Good (and there's a lot of it):
In Lord of The Mountains, Stirling's ability to build worlds is on full display. He puts you into the room, sits you at the table, and you feel like you are there. The last two books (Tears of the Sun, and now Lord of the Mountains) have really shown off the PPA, to good effect. Lots of food porn, scenery porn, and armor porn. All well done. Along with a fairly subtle but sharp pointing out of one major disadvantage of a feudal military (namely that a massed cavalry charge by feudal knights can put 90% of the political leadership out on the sharp end at one time).
The Battle of the Horse Heaven Hills (Battle of HHS, from here on) is wonderfully detailed, and actually feels like it goes on all day, as a Pre-Modern battle would. I have only two quibbles:
First, that it is detailed enough (and important enough to the story) to warrant a page or two of tactical maps (it can get confusing for the reader, otherwise)...
...and second, the dialogue is extensive enough that it starts to seem like the CUT/Boise armies are always willing to wait for the Montivalan leadership to chat and double check everything before they attack.
The Battle of HHS also gives the Montivalan groups we haven't seen much of lately a chance to shine. The Corvallans, in particular, get a moment in the sun (Swiss Pikes, slightly modified, versus Roman legionaries, slightly modified). The Associates also find their niche....
Fred Thurston, a character I've grown to dislike, actually has a good group of scenes. The Boiseans as a whole have some pretty good moments, especially....well, I won't spoil it, but I found it quite realistic and very human.
The Emberverse lives and dies (and mostly rules) on the strength and likability of the Secondary and Minor characters. The Twins and Tiphaine, in particular, along with the new squires. They feel like real people, and the story really comes alive through their eyes. They have limitations, uncertainties, things they'd rather not contemplate too hard, regrets, and it's easy to relate to them. Tiphaine's (mis)adventures as a Field Marshal really made the last book. The squires, Ingolf, and Mathilda cause the Battle of HHS to have a dog's-eye-view that enhances the "you are there" feeling that Stirling is going for (and achieves).
A minor character, whom I have often expressed my dislike of, dies. Muhahahaha.
Now the Bad:
Which brings us to Rudi. I'll go ahead and say that the Emberverse is awesome in spite of him, not because of him. It seems to me that he is a bold literary experiment, a Chosen One/Annointed King/Hero played straight and without the irony that we so often see nowadays, that has badly misfired. Everything he does is great, he's super handsome, super smart, better than almost anyone at anything (and the people who are better than him in one single thing they've devoted their lives to mastering, are wildly outclassed by him in everything else), everyone loves him (or is intimidated by him), and people flatly ignore barriers that normally would lead them to prefer someone else's leadership/company/etc in favor of Rudi.
Rudi can start jukeboxes by hitting them.
Again and again, characters point out how much better Rudi is than they are....at their own game. Tiphaine, who is probably the closest thing Montival has to a real Field Marshal, specifically states that she's a "competent general"....but Rudi has a "gift" for it. Of course. On top of the other hundred "gifts" he has. About the 9th or 10th time you read this conversation repeated by different characters, in each successive book, you start losing the ability to empathize with Rudi. If you ever did.
He's a master swordsman, archer, knight, etc....who's also stronger and faster than everyone else. After he gets the Sword, he's mentioned as having to spar with 3 of the Protector's Guard simultaneously, just to give him a workout. Descriptions of his doings rapidly start to sound like a Dos Equis commercial:
"I don't always drink wine.....but when I do, I prefer Chateau D'Ath".
Another item is the way Rudi goes on and on about his Kingship (often in internal monologues). As far as he's concerned, he's the King...and everyone else has little input into that matter, save which particular way they wish to celebrate his Kingship. He's been crowned by the Powers, and anyone who begs to differ had better think twice about it. If it were just the necessity of his Leadership to form a unitary response to the CUT/Boise alliance.....that would be one thing. Instead, he seems to see that as merely a speedbump on the way to his Kingship, which is the actually important part. It's not the he seems to even want power, just that the Powers have crowned him and thus he is King, and it would be wrong for anyone to get in the way of that.
Insert the "Constitutional Peasant" scene, here.
Considering that Rudi got his start with his Mom, of all people, telling everyone that he'd be a king (which was likely to have made Signe rather nervous), and naming him "Artos" (ouch)....how much of Rudi's life has really been in touch with concensus reality? The refusal of the Writer to have anyone at all (who isn't a moneygrubbing banker from Corvallis, or the equivalent) react to Rudi's propaganda with anything less than utter credulity....makes chapters featuring Rudi rather painful to read.
When we finally get to the penultimate event of this book (and no, it isn't the Battle of HHS, which is finished about 2/3 of the way into the book), instead of coming across as awesome and otherworldly....it's just another (bunch of) scene(s) of Rudi being confirmed as the Bestest Evar! Just in case the last six nine or so books failed to hammer the point home sufficiently. The obvious "this scene will be explained in the next set of stories" scene, while cool, failed to pull that whole section of the book out of the Rudi morass....and even added a single line that (subtly but definitely) points out that, yes, Rudi will have no*** problems having his cake and eating it, too.
The Religion issue is also, to my opinion, way underplayed. The fresh-from-the-Council-of-Trent form of Catholicism that the overwhelming majority of the Protectorate (and Association in particular) embraces would/should cause them to flatly reject a Pagan monarch (especially one who will be the father of the next Lord Protector). A Pagan leader of an alliance that included the PPA...not so much of an issue, but when it starts to encroach on the PPA top slot itself...nope.
Mathilda, in particular, should have long since eliminated Rudi as a potential consort, once it was obvious he wouldn't convert for her sake. Yet the narrative shows them as more or less always planning to be married, with her basically ignoring both the political issues (loooong before the CUT War/Sunrise Lands/Sword stuff popped up) and the interpersonal issues. That's Pirates Who Don't Do Anything territory.
Aside from the Rudi issue, the only other real complaint is....too many. Too many people (including almost all the main characters) are basically able to function at near superhuman levels. This is a common complaint that Stirling's writing is hit with (and with some justice), as he's rather too optimistic as to what exactly "sufficient martial arts training" can do (even with the best possible raw material). The main characters are basically a gang of Batmen.
The Twins are tall and muscular women who are faster than 99% of men, and stronger than all but the strongest, who are not as skilled as they. Rudi is Rudi (even before the Sword). Mathilda is the closest thing to a realistic person, and is mainly just very well trained (eventually matching that up with lots of experience) by expert trainers, and with sufficient base physical ability to make use of it....so she's just very, very good. There are too many supremely-gifted people that happen to be close friends, and decide to go on a Quest together. It breaks with the more realistic/naturalistic feel of the Emberverse.
We never did get a good explanation of how Signe and half the Bearkillers became hardcore Asatruar in the "missing" 15 years. It comes off a little forced.
Bottom Line: Buy it. Especially if you've been following the Emberverse. If you haven't, check out the Emberverse and buy Dies The Fire. Highly recommended.
Overall, I am optimistic for the Emberverse, and look forward to further books. We seem to be coming to the end of the Rudi Era, for which Deo Gratias.
Edit: Ouch! Before I screw up anyone's day, I removed some spoilers.
Warning: I assume that, if you are reading this, you have read the Emberverse books up to Tears of the Sun.
Spoilers may await.
Let me lead off by saying that I love the Emberverse. It has it's flaws (more on that, later), but it is one of the best series of our time, and is head and shoulders above the competition. I've always like Stirling's writing style (with a few minor reservations), from the 5th Millenium books on up to today, and his books are always entertaining.
The Good (and there's a lot of it):
In Lord of The Mountains, Stirling's ability to build worlds is on full display. He puts you into the room, sits you at the table, and you feel like you are there. The last two books (Tears of the Sun, and now Lord of the Mountains) have really shown off the PPA, to good effect. Lots of food porn, scenery porn, and armor porn. All well done. Along with a fairly subtle but sharp pointing out of one major disadvantage of a feudal military (namely that a massed cavalry charge by feudal knights can put 90% of the political leadership out on the sharp end at one time).
The Battle of the Horse Heaven Hills (Battle of HHS, from here on) is wonderfully detailed, and actually feels like it goes on all day, as a Pre-Modern battle would. I have only two quibbles:
First, that it is detailed enough (and important enough to the story) to warrant a page or two of tactical maps (it can get confusing for the reader, otherwise)...
...and second, the dialogue is extensive enough that it starts to seem like the CUT/Boise armies are always willing to wait for the Montivalan leadership to chat and double check everything before they attack.
The Battle of HHS also gives the Montivalan groups we haven't seen much of lately a chance to shine. The Corvallans, in particular, get a moment in the sun (Swiss Pikes, slightly modified, versus Roman legionaries, slightly modified). The Associates also find their niche....
Fred Thurston, a character I've grown to dislike, actually has a good group of scenes. The Boiseans as a whole have some pretty good moments, especially....well, I won't spoil it, but I found it quite realistic and very human.
The Emberverse lives and dies (and mostly rules) on the strength and likability of the Secondary and Minor characters. The Twins and Tiphaine, in particular, along with the new squires. They feel like real people, and the story really comes alive through their eyes. They have limitations, uncertainties, things they'd rather not contemplate too hard, regrets, and it's easy to relate to them. Tiphaine's (mis)adventures as a Field Marshal really made the last book. The squires, Ingolf, and Mathilda cause the Battle of HHS to have a dog's-eye-view that enhances the "you are there" feeling that Stirling is going for (and achieves).
A minor character, whom I have often expressed my dislike of, dies. Muhahahaha.
Now the Bad:
Which brings us to Rudi. I'll go ahead and say that the Emberverse is awesome in spite of him, not because of him. It seems to me that he is a bold literary experiment, a Chosen One/Annointed King/Hero played straight and without the irony that we so often see nowadays, that has badly misfired. Everything he does is great, he's super handsome, super smart, better than almost anyone at anything (and the people who are better than him in one single thing they've devoted their lives to mastering, are wildly outclassed by him in everything else), everyone loves him (or is intimidated by him), and people flatly ignore barriers that normally would lead them to prefer someone else's leadership/company/etc in favor of Rudi.
Rudi can start jukeboxes by hitting them.
Again and again, characters point out how much better Rudi is than they are....at their own game. Tiphaine, who is probably the closest thing Montival has to a real Field Marshal, specifically states that she's a "competent general"....but Rudi has a "gift" for it. Of course. On top of the other hundred "gifts" he has. About the 9th or 10th time you read this conversation repeated by different characters, in each successive book, you start losing the ability to empathize with Rudi. If you ever did.
He's a master swordsman, archer, knight, etc....who's also stronger and faster than everyone else. After he gets the Sword, he's mentioned as having to spar with 3 of the Protector's Guard simultaneously, just to give him a workout. Descriptions of his doings rapidly start to sound like a Dos Equis commercial:
"I don't always drink wine.....but when I do, I prefer Chateau D'Ath".
Another item is the way Rudi goes on and on about his Kingship (often in internal monologues). As far as he's concerned, he's the King...and everyone else has little input into that matter, save which particular way they wish to celebrate his Kingship. He's been crowned by the Powers, and anyone who begs to differ had better think twice about it. If it were just the necessity of his Leadership to form a unitary response to the CUT/Boise alliance.....that would be one thing. Instead, he seems to see that as merely a speedbump on the way to his Kingship, which is the actually important part. It's not the he seems to even want power, just that the Powers have crowned him and thus he is King, and it would be wrong for anyone to get in the way of that.
Insert the "Constitutional Peasant" scene, here.
Considering that Rudi got his start with his Mom, of all people, telling everyone that he'd be a king (which was likely to have made Signe rather nervous), and naming him "Artos" (ouch)....how much of Rudi's life has really been in touch with concensus reality? The refusal of the Writer to have anyone at all (who isn't a moneygrubbing banker from Corvallis, or the equivalent) react to Rudi's propaganda with anything less than utter credulity....makes chapters featuring Rudi rather painful to read.
When we finally get to the penultimate event of this book (and no, it isn't the Battle of HHS, which is finished about 2/3 of the way into the book), instead of coming across as awesome and otherworldly....it's just another (bunch of) scene(s) of Rudi being confirmed as the Bestest Evar! Just in case the last six nine or so books failed to hammer the point home sufficiently. The obvious "this scene will be explained in the next set of stories" scene, while cool, failed to pull that whole section of the book out of the Rudi morass....and even added a single line that (subtly but definitely) points out that, yes, Rudi will have no*** problems having his cake and eating it, too.
The Religion issue is also, to my opinion, way underplayed. The fresh-from-the-Council-of-Trent form of Catholicism that the overwhelming majority of the Protectorate (and Association in particular) embraces would/should cause them to flatly reject a Pagan monarch (especially one who will be the father of the next Lord Protector). A Pagan leader of an alliance that included the PPA...not so much of an issue, but when it starts to encroach on the PPA top slot itself...nope.
Mathilda, in particular, should have long since eliminated Rudi as a potential consort, once it was obvious he wouldn't convert for her sake. Yet the narrative shows them as more or less always planning to be married, with her basically ignoring both the political issues (loooong before the CUT War/Sunrise Lands/Sword stuff popped up) and the interpersonal issues. That's Pirates Who Don't Do Anything territory.
Aside from the Rudi issue, the only other real complaint is....too many. Too many people (including almost all the main characters) are basically able to function at near superhuman levels. This is a common complaint that Stirling's writing is hit with (and with some justice), as he's rather too optimistic as to what exactly "sufficient martial arts training" can do (even with the best possible raw material). The main characters are basically a gang of Batmen.
The Twins are tall and muscular women who are faster than 99% of men, and stronger than all but the strongest, who are not as skilled as they. Rudi is Rudi (even before the Sword). Mathilda is the closest thing to a realistic person, and is mainly just very well trained (eventually matching that up with lots of experience) by expert trainers, and with sufficient base physical ability to make use of it....so she's just very, very good. There are too many supremely-gifted people that happen to be close friends, and decide to go on a Quest together. It breaks with the more realistic/naturalistic feel of the Emberverse.
We never did get a good explanation of how Signe and half the Bearkillers became hardcore Asatruar in the "missing" 15 years. It comes off a little forced.
Bottom Line: Buy it. Especially if you've been following the Emberverse. If you haven't, check out the Emberverse and buy Dies The Fire. Highly recommended.
Overall, I am optimistic for the Emberverse, and look forward to further books. We seem to be coming to the end of the Rudi Era, for which Deo Gratias.
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The Good: Don't forget more action from Canada, eh!
The Bad: And one of the Twins is missing a freaking eye and yet manages to kick ass.
Also: I recommend all to go read "The Fire Trilogy" a fanfiction set in Colorado. It is quite good in my opinion and deserves praise.
Wild Fire http://www.ipinc.net/~kiers/SMSFanFiction/WildFire.html
Fire Break http://www.ipinc.net/~kiers/SMSFanFiction/FireBreak.html
Back Draft http://www.ipinc.net/~kiers/SMSFanFiction/BackDraft.html
The Bad: And one of the Twins is missing a freaking eye and yet manages to kick ass.
Also: I recommend all to go read "The Fire Trilogy" a fanfiction set in Colorado. It is quite good in my opinion and deserves praise.
Wild Fire http://www.ipinc.net/~kiers/SMSFanFiction/WildFire.html
Fire Break http://www.ipinc.net/~kiers/SMSFanFiction/FireBreak.html
Back Draft http://www.ipinc.net/~kiers/SMSFanFiction/BackDraft.html
Related to the Emberverse at large:
In Island in the Sea of Time, Marion Alston waves off the round of clinical Depression sweeping the Nantucket population, due to being seperated from loved ones who weren't on the Island, by saying:
"They're not dead. Just....unavailable."
No, Marion. They're dead. At least >98% of them.
Hilarious in Hindsight, or Harsher in Hindsight?
In Island in the Sea of Time, Marion Alston waves off the round of clinical Depression sweeping the Nantucket population, due to being seperated from loved ones who weren't on the Island, by saying:
"They're not dead. Just....unavailable."
No, Marion. They're dead. At least >98% of them.
Hilarious in Hindsight, or Harsher in Hindsight?