So I'm nearing the end of the 3rd Emberverse book and I really dislike them


Oh, this website decides what is and what isn't AH. See I didn't know that. I guess then that this website also "decides" what is good AH, huh? Are you the person chosen by the website to decide what is good or bad? Is that a sticky I missed?

Wow, I had no idea Star Wars, Star Trek, Warhammer 40K, 5 or 6 different video games were AH.

I'm not done reading all of your posts yet. When I do, then I may put you on my ignore list but until then I am enjoying rereading your nonsense.

Maybe you should start a list of "good" AH we are aloud to talk about. Then that will force the publisher to buy more from those authors.

But I have noticed for someone so smart you have only started one thread yourself. Why is that? Too busy complaining about other peoples work?
 
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Welcome to the site!:)

Anyway I agree with you completely, simply because certain modern technologies are now impossible doesn't mean that medival is better or that the world will revert to what it was like back then.

There would be new types of armour, new types of weapons, new techniques for making things- but they'll be based more on the last 200 years than a thousand years before.


Oh, I"ve been around for a year or two, but just haven't said anything. My day job keeps me rather busy. Thrice to Iraq busy.

Not just physical technologies, too. There is a far greater body of knowledge on martial arts now than there was when Medieval armor was the end of things. A modern, or even post-Change man would have a lot more ways to attack a armored man than a 1200 CE peasant would know of. The monopoly on violence and training that gave a Medieval fighter a lot of his advantage is not there anymore.
 
Oh, I"ve been around for a year or two, but just haven't said anything. My day job keeps me rather busy. Thrice to Iraq busy.

Not just physical technologies, too. There is a far greater body of knowledge on martial arts now than there was when Medieval armor was the end of things. A modern, or even post-Change man would have a lot more ways to attack a armored man than a 1200 CE peasant would know of. The monopoly on violence and training that gave a Medieval fighter a lot of his advantage is not there anymore.

Ah, I didn't even notice that you had joined in 2009. I do continue to be suprised by the large number of military or former military personell we have on this site.

I didn't think about martial arts, but you have a good point. Any new "nobility" that tries to set itself up is going to find maintaining its power much more difficult than in the middle ages.
 
The relative wide spread use of crossbows actually make the problems in DTF worse. Crossbows are relatively easy to use. So why do the Bearkillers and PPA have knights? It takes years to train a horse and knight and that is their main job. So they need peasants to farm for them.
Know if you give the world 50 years after the Change then maybe. But modern people make crappy slaves (and most people now would consider being a peasant slavery). They would be lazy and pissed off about becoming the bottom rung of society forever.
Now back to crossbows. All it would take would be for the McKenzies or Bearkillers to smuggle in a few hundred crossbows to the PPA serfs. The PPA as a military aristocracy could not afford many losses. The PPA's problems are similar to the Draka's but far far worse. The Draka had time and distance. The PPA had neither.
 
The relative wide spread use of crossbows actually make the problems in DTF worse. Crossbows are relatively easy to use. So why do the Bearkillers and PPA have knights? It takes years to train a horse and knight and that is their main job. So they need peasants to farm for them.
Know if you give the world 50 years after the Change then maybe. But modern people make crappy slaves (and most people now would consider being a peasant slavery). They would be lazy and pissed off about becoming the bottom rung of society forever.
Now back to crossbows. All it would take would be for the McKenzies or Bearkillers to smuggle in a few hundred crossbows to the PPA serfs. The PPA as a military aristocracy could not afford many losses. The PPA's problems are similar to the Draka's but far far worse. The Draka had time and distance. The PPA had neither.

The Bear Killer A-list are the professional military/police force for that nation. Although they also seem to gave become the political class. The pikeman and crossbowman are part of their part time militia drawn mainly from the towns and villages. The A-list are not really classic knights. They are more like light lancers/horse archers. The Bear Killers don't have slaves or serfs but it does look
like they have tentant farmers that work land
owned by members of the A-list.

Now the PPA does have true mail era knights as the top of there ruling military class' but they also keep professional spearman and crossbowman.

The Clan does give weapons to the PPA serfs that upraising is one of the reasons the PPA stops their attacks on the smaller states.
 
Light support weapons mounted on US civil war era type field artillery carriages using steel springs providing the power to throw large arrows, round balls, or napalm bombs. Those machines are cocked fast by water power that acts on pistons in the main machine. The water comes from second tank wagons and moves through armored hoses to the weapon. Also the have a geared system that uses the movement of the axles to cock the weapon as the move back. The they talk about medium and heavy machine but we never see them in action. When did any medieval army field something that advanced?

Like I said the advances are small and rare. You name just about all of them there and they don't do much to actually change medieval tactics. They also have no advances (relative to medieval times) for infantry, which is rather silly. Point is, there's a huge mess of potential technologies that would radical change combat from the medieval norm, but this is ignored...rather like how he kills off large sections of the country because he doesn't want to deal with them.

Which book are you counting as number 3? Are you reading, Meeting at Corvallis or Sword of the lady?

The third one. That's Meeting at Corvallis. Why would I count the 6th book as the third?

As to the crossbows. The books show all the major powers on the good guy side but the neo-Celtic clan using crossbows. The PPA has them, the Bear Killers for their non-A list militia, the free cities, all of them are using crossbows. In Meeting at Corvallis they show that the Bear killers have deployed modern crossbows with some sort of cocking system built into the stock that doubles or triples the rate of fire over a standard crossbow. By the start of the second Emberverse series the PPA mentions that they have upgraded to the new style crossbows. And farther in the series it mentions that Iowa has the same sort of advanced crossbow but with a different design.

And at least up to the 3rd book, they act like Longbows are better than Crossbows regarding range and penetration. This just ISN'T true. The only advantage Longbows have is that they fire around twice as fast (using the best medieval tech for the crossbows, quite possibly we could think of something better today). Longbows take a lot more time to train, more variable depending on the user, can't be aimed as easily, are more tiring to use, and so forth. Stirling acts like they are the superior weapon, when they just AREN'T. I am well aware crossbows are in the book, they are just arbitrarily nerfed so the Wiccans seem cooler.
 
The Bear Killer A-list are the professional military/police force for that nation. Although they also seem to gave become the political class. The pikeman and crossbowman are part of their part time militia drawn mainly from the towns and villages. The A-list are not really classic knights. They are more like light lancers/horse archers. The Bear Killers don't have slaves or serfs but it does look
like they have tentant farmers that work land
owned by members of the A-list.

Now the PPA does have true mail era knights as the top of there ruling military class' but they also keep professional spearman and crossbowman.

The Clan does give weapons to the PPA serfs that upraising is one of the reasons the PPA stops their attacks on the smaller states.



My point being is that the PPA does not have enough time to start up. It would be way to easy to make it impossible for the PPA to control their area.
Only Havel, Juniper, and Arminger do much of anything. Everyone else reacts to them. Fair enough except for Corvallis. Corvallis is the second most powerful group yet they just sit on their ass and let the other 3 do what they want because that's how Stirling wants it.
Again give the PPA time and space they could set up what Arminger accomplished. But with 3 powerful unfriendly neighbors he could not set up a feudal society with an unwilling workforce unless they let him. But since book 1 ends with a war they know he is dangerous. So arming the serfs is an easy and quick way to make it too hard for the PPA to be a threat.
 
Like I said the advances are small and rare. You name just about all of them there and they don't do much to actually change medieval tactics. They also have no advances (relative to medieval times) for infantry, which is rather silly. Point is, there's a huge mess of potential technologies that would radical change combat from the medieval norm, but this is ignored...rather like how he kills off large sections of the country because he doesn't want to deal with them.

The third one. That's Meeting at Corvallis. Why would I count the 6th book as the third?

And at least up to the 3rd book, they act like Longbows are better than Crossbows regarding range and penetration. This just ISN'T true. The only advantage Longbows have is that they fire around twice as fast (using the best medieval tech for the crossbows, quite possibly we could think of something better today). Longbows take a lot more time to train, more variable depending on the user, can't be aimed as easily, are more tiring to use, and so forth. Stirling acts like they are the superior weapon, when they just AREN'T. I am well aware crossbows are in the book, they are just arbitrarily nerfed so the Wiccans seem cooler.

Ok. I guess we will have to disagree. I've read you're plan to arm most ground troops with flamethrowers. I just don't see that happening. I don't think it makes any tactical sense or is technically possible given the human skill/manufacturing resources in the early post-change years. I agree they would make great support weapons but not a replacement for a rifle.

Most people including Stirling himself split the Emberverse series into parts I and II. So many people count the book numbers as starting over with "The Sunrise Lands." That why I asked which you were reading.

Try to put yourself in the characters places. The world has gone to shit, and you are barely surviving. You're trying to learn to raise your own food, after a lifetime of think of anyone that works the land is a worthless redneck. Also you have to fight off bandits, and eaters all the while. What are the chances your group has a person with the skills to develop the advance spring powered weapons you want?

Well you can see some of Stirling biases and then some of the story line in the use of crossbows. First you're right he just thinks longbows armed Wiccans are cooler and he does make their first true military leader be a longbow archer. He claimed he based the stats for the Clan longbows on the English "Mary Rose" war bow that had a 150 pds draw and a range of about 300 to 400 yards depending on what arrow type was used. Also remember it's not really the weapon the matters but how you use it. The Clan has a skilled military professional leading it's armies, while the PPA is run by amateurs. I don't really think the PPA nobles that were gang-bangers, SCA role players, college professors were the top of the line generals.

He had the the PPA social Elite limit their weapon/armor designs to fit into there Norman era world view and to limit the ability of their Army to raise up against Knights/men at arms. Also they really weren't going up against quality foes. Until the large war at the end of the book you are reading the PPA were fighting surviving village/town/farm militias armed with home made spears and hammers not a professional enemy military.

Now didn't you read about the Bear Killer's crossbows? They fielded a modern crossbow weapon that had twice the rate of fire as the PPA crossbow. Isn't that what you wanted?
 
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My point being is that the PPA does not have enough time to start up. It would be way to easy to make it impossible for the PPA to control their area.
Only Havel, Juniper, and Arminger do much of anything. Everyone else reacts to them. Fair enough except for Corvallis. Corvallis is the second most powerful group yet they just sit on their ass and let the other 3 do what they want because that's how Stirling wants it.
Again give the PPA time and space they could set up what Arminger accomplished. But with 3 powerful unfriendly neighbors he could not set up a feudal society with an unwilling workforce unless they let him. But since book 1 ends with a war they know he is dangerous. So arming the serfs is an easy and quick way to make it too hard for the PPA to be a threat.

I agree. I don't think the PPA could overthrow the real government of Portland or cause the little civil wars in Salem, Pendleton, as other areas so easily, but they sure had a huge numbers and hand to hand skill advantaged on the Clan or the Bear Killers. Outside of the stupid hang glider stunt those groups should never had time to form. Corvallis should be the other real power in the area.
 
Ok. I guess we will have to disagree. I've read you're plan to arm most ground troops with flamethrowers. I just don't see that happening. I don't think it makes any tactical sense or is technically possible given the human skill/manufacturing resources in the early post-change years. I agree they would make great support weapons but not a replacement for a rifle.

Never said you'd arm everyone with them. You don't need that many to make melee combat an insanely bad idea. It isn't like flamethrowers require that much complexity to make either (and without cars the fuel is plentiful enough). Heck, they could have appeared in the first book, but barring that by the time you get 8+ years out they should definitely have a presence.

Try to put yourself in the characters places. The world has gone to shit, and you are barely surviving. You're trying to learn to raise your own food, after a lifetime of think of anyone that works the land is a worthless redneck. Also you have to fight off bandits, and eaters all the while. What are the chances your group has a person with the skills to develop the advance spring powered weapons you want?

By the 2nd book people aren't barely surviving at all. They also have multiple engineers available, so it isn't like they don't have experts that could design more advanced weapons. I mean, heck, it's well-known there are magazine-based crossbows historically and with our advanced engineering today we could do even better. But, of course, like chemistry, this isn't explored to any meaningful degree despite the ready presence of engineers.

Well you can see some of Stirling biases and then some of the story line in the use of crossbows. First you're right he just thinks longbows armed Wiccans are cooler and he does make their first true military leader be a longbow archer. He claimed he based the stats for the Clan longbows on the English "Mary Rose" war bow that had a 150 pds draw and a range of about 300 to 400 yards depending on what arrow type was used. Also remember it's not really the weapon the matters but how you use it. The Clan has a skilled military professional leading it's armies, while the PPA is run by amateurs. I don't really think the PPA nobles that were gang-bangers, SCA role players, college professors were the top of the line generals.

And Havel was in the military too. There are plenty of ex-military people that survive. There's really no justification in reality for long bows being presented as so awesome. Crossbows supplanted them for many good reasons. Beyond that, it most certainly DOES matter what weapon you are using -- what kind of silly statement is that?

Now didn't you read about the Bear Killer's crossbows? They fielded a modern crossbow weapon that had twice the rate of fire as the PPA crossbow. Isn't that what you wanted?

Which are stated to be inferior to the longbow in range and killing power, which is ridiculous. The fact Stirling didn't even keep things accurate with the historical items he was using just makes the books even worse.
 
Never said you'd arm everyone with them. You don't need that many to make melee combat an insanely bad idea. It isn't like flamethrowers require that much complexity to make either (and without cars the fuel is plentiful enough). Heck, they could have appeared in the first book, but barring that by the time you get 8+ years out they should definitely have a presence.

By the 2nd book people aren't barely surviving at all. They also have multiple engineers available, so it isn't like they don't have experts that could design more advanced weapons. I mean, heck, it's well-known there are magazine-based crossbows historically and with our advanced engineering today we could do even better. But, of course, like chemistry, this isn't explored to any meaningful degree despite the ready presence of engineers.

And Havel was in the military too. There are plenty of ex-military people that survive. There's really no justification in reality for long bows being presented as so awesome. Crossbows supplanted them for many good reasons. Beyond that, it most certainly DOES matter what weapon you are using -- what kind of silly statement is that?

Which are stated to be inferior to the longbow in range and killing power, which is ridiculous. The fact Stirling didn't even keep things accurate with the historical items he was using just makes the books even worse.

I am going to assume you have no experience with hand to hand combat. Why don't you read up on the training the given to police officers on dealing with opponents armed with knives? A person with a edged weapon can close a rather large distance in such a short amount of time even a well trained officer cannot draw his pistol. Your dream weapons are not going to end melee combat.

Oh it's common knowledge huh? Can you build a flamethrower with hand tools out of the scraps in your house? What range are you going to have? How many bursts will it have? What will be the duration of those bursts? How much fuel can you carry? If you're carrying fuel who is carrying the water/food/shelter for you? I can walk down into my den and take my Scutum, gladius, pilum, and hasta off the wall and be ready. How about you?

It not a silly statement. The fact you don't understand it tells me a lot about your ability to lead. Would you like historical examples? In the Franco-Prussian war the French rifle out ranged the German rifle 2 to 1: German's won due to better leadership. In the battle of France the French fielded better tanks than the Germans: German's won due to better leadership and tactics. Hedge row country Normandy: German Panther tanks much better than the British and Americans tanks: Victory Allies due to better logistics and air support. US convoy in Iraq makes a wrong turn in a city: poorly armed Iraq militia destroys much of convoy due to poor training of US support troops. The British against the Zulu at Isandlwana: victory Zulu due to better tactics and leadership. There are dozens of examples were armies with better weapons lost to armies that had better leadership.

Or how about this? You are supremely confident in your wonder weapons, you've failed to train/arm your troops for melee combat. I notice you trains are only guarded by the teamsters. I send my light cavalry (you have none or poorly trained cavalry because like you said your fire weapons make them worthless.) around a wooded area that keeps them out of your view. They fall upon your trains killing your horses and drivers. Then they start burning your supplies including the your spare fuel.

Or because you're a amateur you leave your left flank open. I use the creek/wood area on that side to move a unit of swordsman within 100 yards of your last unit's flank. They charge, you get lucky and turn your formation just in time. You kill/wound about a third of the attackers. The rest are now inside your unit killing with shield and sword, your unit breaks because you didn't prepare them for melee combat.

Or here. Knowing you have lot's of flame weapons. I offer battle in a rain storm. The weather hinders your troops in lighting the pilot lights for their flame weapons. My troops take heavy loses to the weapons you to get workings, but we break your formation and then the killing begins.

Or here: I use smoke screens to mask my deployment. I send in my first attack on you right side. A mixed formation of pike/crossbow. They are supported by medium and light field artillery that splits it's effort between the attempts to suppress your artillery and attacks on your blocks of flame weapons. And it's an accurate fire because of the spotters I have in the balloon. Then come a flight of my gliders. Oh, wow, look at how your flame troops burn when hit with a napalm bomb. I guess you just learned the same lesson many US Marines did in WW2; having a fuel tank on your back is not a good idea. But still you're wonder weapons beat off my attack. But I notice that your fire has slackened on the right at the end as your troops ran low on ammo/fuel. I send in another attack with a fresh unit on the right, while demonstrating a mock build up on your left. You see through my bluff. You keep the left in place and send your reserves to the right, but by the time they arrive my crossbowman are within range, and then the pikes charge at a run. Your troops low on ammo break. They flee to the rear as fast as they can; right into your reserves causing panic in that unit it run also. Your lines on the right have broken, I order a general attack all a long the line to keep you from repairing the right. Also I send in my cavalry on the right to further the rout. By the end of the night your army is destroyed and your head is on a spear outside my tent.

Or here. Because I am not a moron. I know your army has a major range advantage on mine. I refuse to offer battle. I make it a war of maneuver drawing you farther into my country. Further from your supply bases, and I burn everything before I fall back. The country side is empty of food for man and beast. Because you know all you need is one big battle to win you follow. This causes you to be at the end of long supply lines. Which is just what I wanted. I send small bands of cavalry working from hidden supple bases to attack your wagon convoys. This causes you to split off some units to guard those MSR roads. I then attack those small units. But the best is I keep falling back toward my bases shortening my supply lines while your army slowing starves.

Or here: You're army is based on wagon mounted Polybolos. Great, I dig deep trenches like tank traps before my lines. I anchored my flanks on a deeply wooded area on one side, and a wetland on the other. You wagons have no choice but to come up the center. Any because I know you will try to fill in the tank traps I cover them with artillery and put bunkers behind them for crossbowman. Send your engineers forward I will just kill them.

War most of the time is more about leadership and training not wonder weapons. Like I said before it's more about how you use what you have. Nothing you can build post change is going to allow you to open such a large advantage in terms of capabilities to overcome that.

Really which characters where from the military? The only real one I remember is the Brit was a retired SAS trooper in the Clan. The Bear Killers have Havel (a Cpl/E-4 in the Marines) and the sailor construction worker that's not a lot of knowledge. The PPA has the US Army soldier that complains that the "Nobles" acting as generals will not listen to him. Are there any others? If so name them?

Who do you think were engineers? I know the PPA had them because that was one of the protected occupations they looked for. The Bear Killers had one the Larsson father, and he designed their heavy machines that destroy the PPA armored riverships. I don't think the Clan had any. I am sure Corvallis and CORA had some but the books don't name any.

Which historical repeating crossbow are you referring to? The only ones I know of is the hand held Chinese Chu-Ko-Nu and the Greek artillery Polybolos. Ones a artillery pieces good luck moving that through most of the country and the Chinese one was hard to aim and had an effective range of about 80 yards. I think it would be great in the change world but it sure isn't what your talking about.
 
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Not to necro but I just finished the first book and enjoyed it. Not as any work of intelligent alternate history but as a fun fantasy. Maybe I won't read the others.
 
That sounds hilariously awesome.

And I heartily agree with the previous comments about the US Army Vs an SCA group. I am Army, and I've got lots of SCA friends, so I've seen both in action. And I can confidently say that any given group of Soldiers would tear the SCA guys apart, especially if the SCA kids were standing between the Soldiers and food.

I'd always thought it would have been a hilarious short end to Norman Arminger's career if one of the Soldiers of cops he killed in his little "Look How Cool My Norman Armor Is!" demo at the beginning of the first book had simply thought to stab him instead of slashing, or aime for one of the many points armor does not or cannot cover, like the neck or joints. That's how you use a bayonet, with a stab, damn it.

Well said battle. I'd bet the bank we'd see little city states form around any military base in the country before some SCA doofus can play Sauron.
 
Well said battle. I'd bet the bank we'd see little city states form around any military base in the country before some SCA doofus can play Sauron.

Well, city states around military bases with good farmland around them will pop up. This would happen especially around the South, considering all the military bases in somewhat rural areas. There's just so much farmland in the eastern US!
 
Well, city states around military bases with good farmland around them will pop up. This would happen especially around the South, considering all the military bases in somewhat rural areas. There's just so much farmland in the eastern US!

I'd bet my money on the boys of Ft. Benning playing Ranger better than Astrid and her loons :cool:
 
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one thing you have to remember about this DTF world... it changes in a flash from one where a handful of people with modern equipment feed billions of other non-farmers to one where the majority of people have to farm again... the loss of agricultural technology is a real blow... and one that seems to get overlooked a lot when discussing this series. If this (literally) ASB scenario actually happened, I doubt that the world would end up like Stirling imagined it, but a return to a feudal style economy seems likely, simply because there wouldn't be that modern agricultural tech around to feed more non-farmer people...
 
Not to necro but I just finished the first book and enjoyed it. Not as any work of intelligent alternate history but as a fun fantasy. Maybe I won't read the others.

While I have posted several times about how unrealistic the series is and the problems if you like Stirling the series is OK. If you don't then you will hate it. However as the series goes on longer there is more "author on board". A common problem. So basicily Stirling becomes more Stirling as the series continues.
 
one thing you have to remember about this DTF world... it changes in a flash from one where a handful of people with modern equipment feed billions of other non-farmers to one where the majority of people have to farm again... the loss of agricultural technology is a real blow... and one that seems to get overlooked a lot when discussing this series. If this (literally) ASB scenario actually happened, I doubt that the world would end up like Stirling imagined it, but a return to a feudal style economy seems likely, simply because there wouldn't be that modern agricultural tech around to feed more non-farmer people...

I agree that things would change. But full blown feudalism in 2 months?
My thoughts would be the US govt. survives. Or more accurately parts of the US govt. survives. They move people out to the farms and try a communist style group farm with real farmers in charge. 200 years later the Senators, Governors, Generals, etc. are the high nobles and the descendants of the original farmers are the yeoman class. The refugees descendants are at worst peasants but unlikely to be serfs.
Now Walker in ISOT and his cronies were dicks and had an oppurtunity so they are believable. But Armitage and his cronies were "polish our monocles and throw a kitten in the fire" type because they plot required it.
 
The Plague is basically the Great Equalizer in DTF, that the government areas were the government areas (the government will help so lets go to them for help on this insanity) pretty much did them as they became overburdened and areas such as the Mackenzies refused to hand over their food. It also created the opportunity for types like Duke Iron Rod and Arminger as the old society collapsed.
 
one thing you have to remember about this DTF world... it changes in a flash from one where a handful of people with modern equipment feed billions of other non-farmers to one where the majority of people have to farm again... the loss of agricultural technology is a real blow... and one that seems to get overlooked a lot when discussing this series. If this (literally) ASB scenario actually happened, I doubt that the world would end up like Stirling imagined it, but a return to a feudal style economy seems likely, simply because there wouldn't be that modern agricultural tech around to feed more non-farmer people...

There is no necessity to revert to a feudal economy or society. The increase in agricultural productivity brought about by the mechanical reaper makes serfdom unnecessary. Modern mechanical reapers were developed in the early nineteenth century, were horse-drawn and can be built and maintained by blacksmiths. A large part of the society can be freed from agricultural labor compared to a feudal economy.
 
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