So I'm nearing the end of the 3rd Emberverse book and I really dislike them

I've always felt it would make for a good redux of the Emberverse books if a more realistic society, one that looked up to the United States, viewed technology as wonderful and something to be sought after, that also drew from more advanced technology than the middle ages, ran into the the civilizations of Oregon. I'm thinking airships vs knights and chlorine gas vs. mideval infantry.

I agree. Did you notice how the Canadians were able to keep the RCMP as some sort of cross border militia, but nothing of the US government?

One of the things that drove me crazy was the fact none of the factions in Oregon seemed willing to move. If I commanded the Bear killers once I foundout the PPA was already such a power I am moving south into the empty area of California or go down into Texas.
 
I think I've read most if not all of Stirling novels and short stories over the years. When I was younger I really enjoyed the General series, and the Man-Kinz wars. I found the Draka books a little dark to enjoy. I used to spend a lot time on the yahoo stirling forum. Right after the first DtF book came out most of the problems that have been posted here were talked about there. At that time Stirling was an active member of that site and generally refused to listen to anyone but his fanboys. From what I understand the DtF series brought a completely different kind of reader to Stirlings works and he seems to have changed his writing to keep that group. His books are no long military sci-fi, they are mainly fantasy. If you enjoy that type of book they're not that bad. If you want the Stirling from ISOT you're going to be disappointed.

The one argument I still remember was the silly way the US military just gave up and died in the first book. Many people argued that a lot of large bases in the Midwest and West are in rural areas and should have been able to survive. He pointed out how SCA members would beat any military force because they had swords and armor and that modern military wouldn't have the skills to survive. We tried to point out that core military skills like close order drill, discipline, teamwork, and willingness to follow orders would be much harder than a group of college students whose hobby is dress up as a knight.

Also people tried to point out that his death zones were too large by pointing out the problems a generally out of shape American urban population would have moving out of the chaos of large cities on foot pushing shopping carts or on bicycles. Imagine a fat wellfare mother of 5 or the computer tech that hasn't seen his feet in years trying to walk out of New York City through the choas of a collapsing society. I always argued that by the time most urban masses realisted the government wasn't coming to help most would already be in too poor a state to start walking into the country side and robbing framers.

I agree with all that, though I can accept whatever survivors he wants for Oregon. I also think that generally the feeling of America would survive pretty well. I think you'd see people starting to reform States and then the Union over time. Granted, you'd get some people against that, but overall people in America LOVE America. Naturally that and the military stuff goes against his thesis that the modern world sucks.

I agree that I don't think he's right on death zones. I'd think generally you'd see an upper limit to how far people move away from cities based on city-size, not wider and wider areas the more population you had. Eating other people is actually REALLY rare even in situations where everyone is starving to death. We have tons of examples in history of people all dying to starvation and never giving into cannibalism, the cases going the other way are extremely rare exceptions. So I think you'd have a fixed walking/biking radius around the city, made slightly larger with more people do to in-fighting and stealing, but doubling the population won't double the distance people can go I wouldn't think. The vast, vast majority of the food would be split up among people and almost everyone would die.

Personally I like fantasy. I don't particularly mind the fantasy stuff in the books, though I don't think he went about it in a very interesting way -- heck, I felt the books were really missing out on a dragon or two (maybe a Dragonheart-esque dragon) and perhaps wizards. Or go non-magic and still keep steam-powered stuff -- or just as interesting keep electronics but lose steam power and the internal combustion engine (yeah, it would need a crazy justification, but looking at what can be done JUST with electromagnetism without explosives, steam power, or the like would be fascinating). IMHO, his fantasy is just so-so and has the annoying "hatred of the modern world."

I'd compare his fantasy to Robert Jordan's. Sure, after the first few books Jordon went on and on about nothing for page after page way too much (including doing that for an entire book later), but his fantasy DID have a past "modern" age like ours. They didn't revile it either, but it was a thing of legend and wonder. Seems to me that is how kids growing up after the Change would think of our modern civilization. An age of wonder where we made giant metal birds that dominated the skies, journeyed to the moon and far beneath the surface of the oceans, etc. Instead all kids hate the era before the change and almost every main character says bad things about it more often than not. It's really rather crazy and preachy in that way. I'm not saying modern society is perfect, but we're better now than we were in the 1950s, and better than we were in the 1900s, and better than we were in the 1850s and all that both morally and technologically. I guess I'm kind of unique in really being annoyed at his attacks on progress.
 
I hate how it was typical Sterling America-screw, Christian-screw, lesbain-wank, with an added dose of Wicca-wank. That and the factions... I could believe someone like the Bearkillers or CORA, but the MacKenzies or PPA? I see no way that a handful of Wiccans can grow to be a faction of a hundred thousand in twenty years. I see no way that people who had just been living in a modern democracy would allow themselves to become serfs in just a few short months. And of course, the American Death Zones were just ASB... you expect me to beleive that NOTHING east of the missisppi survived?

lesbian wank? i only read the first 2. when does it become a lesbian wank?

I also think that the complete dissolution of the US is pretty much impossible. I can't go 50 feet without seeing an american flag and i have to say the pledge of allegiance every day. I always thought that those who would survive are the rural populations with farms and outdoor skills, and those people are generally far more religious and patriotic.
 
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I agree. Did you notice how the Canadians were able to keep the RCMP as some sort of cross border militia, but nothing of the US government?

That's a common theme in Stirling. It's always that the US will disintegrate, but Canada will live on and dominate the ruins. It happens in Peshawar Lancers as well. "Dancing in the Ruins of Post-Apocalyptic America" is how one reviewer put it. I guess his wish-fulfillment fantasies include destroying the USA.
 
Okay I think while we all have different opinions regarding the level of crappiness of the emberverse series we can all agree on just how much the hominids series sucks.

My god take the worst aspects of “Avatar” and multiply it by a 100 and add an extremely condescending “atheist” message that would make Jack Chick jealous in its obnoxiousness :mad:.
 
That's a common theme in Stirling. It's always that the US will disintegrate, but Canada will live on and dominate the ruins. It happens in Peshawar Lancers as well. "Dancing in the Ruins of Post-Apocalyptic America" is how one reviewer put it. I guess his wish-fulfillment fantasies include destroying the USA.

So Stirling is a lot like Roland Emmerich? ;)
 
That's a common theme in Stirling. It's always that the US will disintegrate, but Canada will live on and dominate the ruins. It happens in Peshawar Lancers as well. "Dancing in the Ruins of Post-Apocalyptic America" is how one reviewer put it. I guess his wish-fulfillment fantasies include destroying the USA.

I kind of understand his general hard-on for Canada, seeing how he is a Canadian. ;)
 
Personally I like fantasy. I don't particularly mind the fantasy stuff in the books, though I don't think he went about it in a very interesting way -- heck, I felt the books were really missing out on a dragon or two (maybe a Dragonheart-esque dragon) and perhaps wizards. Or go non-magic and still keep steam-powered stuff -- or just as interesting keep electronics but lose steam power and the internal combustion engine (yeah, it would need a crazy justification, but looking at what can be done JUST with electromagnetism without explosives, steam power, or the like would be fascinating). IMHO, his fantasy is just so-so and has the annoying "hatred of the modern world."

The DtF books have magic in them. They seem to have real wizards and witches, both sides now are using magic. The bad guys use magic to force soldiers to open gates in PPA forts. And the good guy's use magic to confuse that neo-Roman infantry unit they ambush. Both sides main faith seem to have grown larger and stronger base on the fact their prayers really work. The interesting thing is, he seems to hint in more than one place that maybe it's not real magic but the help of a technological advanced alien race or far future humans. That whole, "advance technology seeming like magic to a lesser developed people" thing. If it turns out to be help not magic, is he going to show that in the end both main faiths (wiccans vs. CUT.) are really based on lies? From what I've read Stirling has gotten a big following among members of the modern pagan movements with this series. How is that going to go over when they realize he was making fun of their faith? I wonder if the point he makes in the end is that peoples belief in God/Gods in general is stupid.

I stopped buying his books in this series after the 3rd, but I have read kept reading the newer ones through my local library. Heck you can read about a third of his newer books on the smstirling.com website. Whatever you do, do not purchase number 4, unless you want to cry about how badly you were ripped off. Get it from a library. I plan on reading the next 2 also. But I am not expecting great things. I guess I just like watching a train
wreck.

I agree about his odd hate for modern society. That's one of the reason I found the CUT bad guys so unbelievable. I thought Stirling was trying to go for a neo-mongol type bad guy at first. But then he had them go all anti-tech which was really odd. I can sort of believe the CUT cult becoming a minor power in their area seeing how that faith claims to have large stores of food and tools but I doubt they'd be able to defeat major advanced power like the Mormons. How would a group that anti-tech field the needed siege machines to take a walled town? Storming the walls by weight of numbers isn't too easy when the town has machines throwing firebombs on your troops hundreds of meters before the walls.
 
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lesbian wank? i only read the first 2. when does it become a lesbian wank?

It doesn't. The main characters that are gay play a minor role in books 3 and 4. Which is odd seeing how Stirling seem to have had a "thing" for writing lesbian sex scenes in his past works. I always guessed that was some sort of sexual fantasy of his.

Now his next series on about the neo-vampires that rule the world has lot of graphic lesbian rape scenes in it. It got so bad I couldn't finish the book.
 
My god take the worst aspects of “Avatar” and multiply it by a 100 and add an extremely condescending “atheist” message that would make Jack Chick jealous in its obnoxiousness :mad:.

The religion was atheism? I always figured it was to the god of the fucking castratti. Or at least it should have been considering how much he goes on and on about how great castration is.
 
I agree. Did you notice how the Canadians were able to keep the RCMP as some sort of cross border militia, but nothing of the US government?

One of the things that drove me crazy was the fact none of the factions in Oregon seemed willing to move. If I commanded the Bear killers once I foundout the PPA was already such a power I am moving south into the empty area of California or go down into Texas.

True. Especially since many of the surviving groups of people in this sort of situation would be mobile you'd expect some very fluid political boundairies in the first century after the fall.
 
The religion was atheism? I always figured it was to the god of the fucking castratti. Or at least it should have been considering how much he goes on and on about how great castration is.

...come again? The same guy who has a lesbian rape scene every other book is a castration fan?

Then again, given his dislike of male characters in his sex scenes, it all seems to fit now.
 
The religion was atheism? I always figured it was to the god of the fucking castratti. Or at least it should have been considering how much he goes on and on about how great castration is.
Best if they don't reproduce, I say. Though he seems to fit a fair amount of the self righteousness mostly into females, with the exclusion of his golden boy. I still wonder why no one has told those "Rangers" that Tolkien was a devote Christian.
 
...come again? The same guy who has a lesbian rape scene every other book is a castration fan?

Then again, given his dislike of male characters in his sex scenes, it all seems to fit now.

We're talking about Sawyers hominids. In it Sawyer spends a great deal of time pointing out the following facts

1) All American White Men are completely and utterly evil.
2) Canadians are gods
3) Humans are by necessity evil but Americans especially so. Women apparently are fine though.
4) Castration makes everything much much better.
5) Everyone and I mean EVERYONE is a bisexual.
6) Bestiality porn with descriptions of ten inch neanderthal schlongs is fucking fantastic.
7)Eugenics is awesome and completely correct.
 
We're talking about Sawyers hominids. In it Sawyer spends a great deal of time pointing out the following facts

1) All American White Men are completely and utterly evil.
2) Canadians are gods
3) Humans are by necessity evil but Americans especially so. Women apparently are fine though.
4) Castration makes everything much much better.
5) Everyone and I mean EVERYONE is a bisexual.
6) Bestiality porn with descriptions of ten inch neanderthal schlongs is fucking fantastic.
7)Eugenics is awesome and completely correct.

The Neanderthals are Elves, IIRC.
 
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