As far as I'm aware the decoys weren't there to draw ships away, they were to throw uncertainty in the direction of the RN, keep the major units away from the Channel for as long as possible by threatening a breakout.
Sealion Naval Forces Mk II
- Thread starter Ian Hathaway
- Start date
sharlin
Banned
Aye it would tie down some elements of the Home Fleet but if there was an invasion going on I think they'd send south what they could whilst keeping sufficient forces up north to watch the Germans. And if the matter was in doubt, then fuck it, flood the channel with everything we've got that floats.
Saphroneth
Banned
You know what would actually be quite hilarious?
Well... it just occurred to me, if a Sealion is even possible-looking it's because of a maximum-effort push to down the RAF and ward off the RN...
S-Day plus one
Bridge, HMS Hood
"Damned it," Whitworth muttered, staring at the brown smudge of the Norwegian coast on the horizon.
He turned to Captain Glennie. "They made it back to port," he said with a sigh.
"Seems so," Glennie agreed. "Pity, I was hoping the bastards would break down."
Whitworth paced the bridge, while his captain privately wished that the Admiral would take himself back off to Flag Bridge where he really belonged.
Then the Admiral blinked. "Wait a second. Have you been hearing all this about the South Coast?"
"Indeed, sir," Glennie replied with a nod. "Which is why I've been wondering when we're going to make our course south-west. It's obvious by now this was a diversion."
"A diversion indeed," Whitworth said with a nod. "And why are we being diverted?"
"So the damned Krauts can invade, of course!" Glennie supplied.
"Indeed." Whitworth pointed southwest. "And that means every other ship they have will be down there, fighting to keep their supply lanes open. Every ship, every plane, every submarine - every mine they can spare."
He strode to the signals officer. "Get me Furious."
Bridge, KMS Bismarck.
"I can scarcely believe we got away with it," Lindemann said with a sigh, sitting down.
His command had - almost unbelievably, after the previous day - made it back to port in Norway. None of the big capital ships - every German capital ship that could float and had a crew - had been lost, even with the best efforts of the Royal Navy.
They'd even spotted and sunk a British Untersee-boot, though that had probably been luck.
Still, now they were safe. And-
"Aircraft!" someone called.
Lindemann came to his feet and strode to the door. "What?" he barked, then spotted it himself.
It was a biplane. Probably - he picked up his binoculars, and adjusted them. Yes, it was a Swordfish. A British torpedo plane.
Were they planning on attacking him here, at anchor? Ridiculous - the harbour bottom here was barely deep enough for his big ships, no torpedo could run that shallow.
He took another look, and frowned. No torpedo.
Were they just checking that he was nicely in port? Sensible, perhaps...
Then he caught sight of something. Just a momentary flicker in the clear blue sky...
"General quarters!" he called. "We're under-"
Explosions marched across the water, about a mile seawards of the moored German capital ships.
"-attack!"
Bridge, HMS Hood
S+1
"Splash," the communications officer reported tonelessly. "Forward air reports undershot one mile, bearing off to the North approximately one-half mile for Hood."
"Correcting," gunnery reported in turn, relaying the information.
"I don't like this, sir," Glennie muttered. "We're too close to the shore. If there's shoaling-"
Hood heeled over on her side as her eight 15" guns fired in pairs.
"We have destroyers out taking soundings with ASDIC," Whitworth replied. "In any case, damn shoaling, this is our chance to really hurt the damned Krauts."
Fainter thunder boomed off to the north, as Nelson fired her own guns in a spaced volley at maximum elevation. Every man on Hood had resented the slower battleships' presence all through the long stern chase... but now they were glad to have them.
"Splash. Range good, bearing good - we have them bracketed," the communications officer supplied. "Pour it on, gunnery!"
Swordfish no.4 in 825 squadron, FAA, attached to HMS Furious
"Now that is intensely satisfying," the pilot said, half-absently, as the third 16" heavy shell smashed into KMS Scharnhorst.
The whole FAA had been hoping for payback after the loss of Glorious, and it looked like it was 825 - with a little incidental help from the Mighty 'Ood and the NelRods, of course - who were giving it.
"No bloody fighters, either," the observer said with satisfaction. "Think they're all down in Kent?"
"Seems likely," the pilot allowed judiciously, banking again to prevent the few Flak guns in operation from getting a bead on him.
Not that it would help the Krauts, there was another Swordfish further to the west to act as replacement in case of trouble, but he didn't fancy a swim.
"Looks like they're drifting north a bit," he added, looking over his shoulder at the observer. "Get them to adjust back south before-"
Bismarck blew up.
"Bloody hellfire," the observer breathed, voicing the thoughts of the whole crew, as chunks of armour and steel hundreds of tons in weight went everywhere. "What just-"
"What colour smoke was that?" the pilot snapped, recovering, and banking around again.
"Um... green," the observer reported. "I think. The other green bursters went off at about the same time, and I count seven of them."
"Excellent," the pilot added, much more calmly. "I believe the rest of the Navy might just owe Hood a drink."
Bergen
Lutjens crumpled his cap in his hands, staring out across the water at the ruin of his career.
The ruin of the Kriegsmarine.
After so many years, so much hard work fighting under Weimar's stupid government for the merest crumb of funding, and then battling it out with the Heer and the Luftwaffe for more money...
The pride of the navy was three great wrecks, sliding under the waves, and smaller debris that had already vanished.
That fucking moron, Doenitz. He must have been behind this asinine diversion plan - the whole point of a diversion was to lure the enemy, yes, but it wasn't much fucking good if you lost your entire fleet doing it because the same moron had stripped the defences of your home port for everything that he could use further south!
And as for that bastard Goering...
One fighter. One single solitary fighter. That's all it would have taken.
Lutjens winced as a secondary explosion took place on Gniseneau, setting the water seething again and making the rescue boats rock on the Fjord's surface.
Then, quite deliberately, he stood up and started down the street.
His billet had some Schnapps. Perhaps he'd feel better once he wasn't looking at the evidence.
Bridge, HMS Hood
Evening of S+1
"Victorious reports aircraft all struck down, sir."
"Very good," Admiral Whitworth replied. "Convey my thanks to captain and crew."
He paused.
"And... increase fleet speed to full, due west. We should get out of the vicinity as quickly as possible. At midnight, make your course for Rosyth."
He turned to his flag captain. "Captain? I believe it might be appropriate to splice the mainbrace."
"My word, sir, yes," Whitworth agreed. He staggered slightly on the deck, as the pumps laboured away corrected Hood's list.
The long, deep scrape along her port side that Hood had suffered from getting too close to shore was going to keep her in dock for months... but then, she needed a refit anyway.
Even for Whitworth, it was entirely worth it.
(Pretty much written off the cuff... hope it's not too silly. I'm aware that depth charts would probably render this impossible unless they were in the shipping channel, too...)
The historical case file I recorded showed 14 convoy battles between 58 Allied warships (57 ships of DD or greater) vs. 113 Axis ships, with a firepower ratio of about 4:1 for the Allies, (437 to 118) resulting in no losses for the Allies and 31 ships sunk for the Axis, or about .53 kills per Allied warship engaged.
To get 700 ships sunk with 60 RN major warships in the region, that translates to 11 ships sunk per warship, which seems high.
Derek Pullem
Donor
So you believe the number is closer to 35 than 700?
Or are we agreed that "fast" freighter convoys in open ocean are not really comparable to the slow, vulnerable, congested target rich environment that a Sealion invasion would offer?
Or are we agreed that "fast" freighter convoys in open ocean are not really comparable to the slow, vulnerable, congested target rich environment that a Sealion invasion would offer?
Saphroneth
Banned
So you think that RN major warships (DD and above) can't maintain an average sinking of eleven canal barges each?
Seriously?
What do you think their 4" guns are firing, trifles?
No 35 is way too low. .53 was the average result from a series of single engagements, so is clearly too low. Sealion would be an extended naval battle over the course of more than a day, meaning multiple engagements against invasion forces by the same warships. Assuming this RN force fully connects, maybe something about 350 "ships" (all types) sunk and hundreds more damaged or scattered?
The rating system for warships firepower seems to overrate the heavy guns. A Revenge Class battleship should be about 15 times more powerful than a destroyer only if engaging a target where the increased gun size matters, like a battleship.
Generally speaking, I think the RN would either kill or disperse whatever invasion force it caught, within the context of night sea battles being very confusing affairs where mistakes can happen. Sealion's invasion is very large and very slow and in the Channel at its narrowest point, so it's pretty easy for the RN to make contact.
Let me just say I'm making no distinction between sunk and damaged and unable to continue here. So the 700 are those that are at the bottom of the sea, bobbing around too damaged to continue or damaged and returning to port. As has been mentioned ... take out a tug and the likelihood is that you've taken out 3 vessels from the transport fleet.
hipper
Banned
Following on from this, a simplistic analysis of the "Battle of the Channel" would give us an idea of the losses sustained by both sides and of what forces the Germans could land on British soil.
I have looked at the relative strengths of each ship/boat involved based on a very simple formula of firepower alone taking into consideration the weight of shot, range and rate of fire of the weaponry of the vessels of both sides. This gives the following results as a comparison to the British Tribal Class Destroyer:
German Destroyers are 13% stronger than the Tribal Class. Their guns (12.7cm as opposed to the 4.7" QF of the Tribal) fire a heavier projectile over a greater distance and at a quicker rate.
In comparison a British Light Cruiser is typically 3 times better than a Tribal.
The Battleship HMS Revenge has the Equivolent firepower of 15+ Tribals.
In contrast the British V & W destroyers (the most numerous) are only rated at 1/3 the strength of the Tribal.
On the German side the 1935 Class Torpedo Boat is slightly weaker than the V & W destroyer however the Raubtier Class Torpedo Boats which also carry the 12.7cm gun are twice as good as the V & W.
It would take 11 or 12 ASW Trawlers to pack the same punch as a Tribal...[/QUOTE]
Hi Iain a couple of challenges for you
German Destroyers are 13% stronger than the Tribal Class. Their guns (12.7cm as opposed to the 4.7" QF of the Tribal) fire a heavier projectile over a greater distance and at a quicker rate. ?
Tribal 8 x 4.7" guns, German pre war destroyer 5 x 5" guns
torpedoes are both ships most effective and decisive weapons
Rate of fire is one of those complex subjects - I doubt if we can be sure of things at this distance in history - variations would be huge between crews and ships.
The 5" gun was slightly more powerful than the 4.7" gun
Raubtier torpedo boats never got 5" guns but stayed with 4"
If I was looking for the biggest difference in these ships I'd identify those with centralised fire controll and those with local control only only 1/2 the effectiveness of ships with local fore control
cheers Hipper
The question of torpedoes was a tricky one to be honest with this being a long drawn out battle the torps play a much smaller part in the outcome. It should be noted that during the summer and autumn of 1940 one of the RNs main concerns was the lack of torpedoes, at one point there weren't enough to go around all ships. On the Kreigsmarine side the torpedoes were not as reliable as they could have been. Effectively once a ships compliment of torps was fired that was it. It is factored in the calculations but more as a one shot wonder than as a sustained source of damage.
Coastal artillery included a number of 9.2" batteries (including one on the Isle of Wight) in addition to the 4.7 and 6 inch batteries. With supercharge the 9.2 could reach out over 30,000 yards. This is a rundown of types of UK weapons in use during WW2
http://www.fsgfort.com/uploads/pdfs/Public/British Coastal Artillery P.pdf
Apart from Dover and Portsmouth there was only one 4 gun 6" battery at Newhaven.
As for the RN, they had a lot of institutional memory to draw on when fighting the Germans, the Kriegsmarine also kept overgunning their designs which made them more fragile in combat they were also very short legged. As for the RN, they simply displayed much more elan than the Nazi's and were willing to take casualties to achieve their objectives.
A RN destroyer would not need to ram a barge, they could simply swamp them by running parallel at 30+ knots after knocking out the township.
http://www.fsgfort.com/uploads/pdfs/Public/British Coastal Artillery P.pdf
Apart from Dover and Portsmouth there was only one 4 gun 6" battery at Newhaven.
As for the RN, they had a lot of institutional memory to draw on when fighting the Germans, the Kriegsmarine also kept overgunning their designs which made them more fragile in combat they were also very short legged. As for the RN, they simply displayed much more elan than the Nazi's and were willing to take casualties to achieve their objectives.
A RN destroyer would not need to ram a barge, they could simply swamp them by running parallel at 30+ knots after knocking out the township.
hipper
Banned
there were a lot of costal batteries covering the invasion coast by mid september 1940, more guns for example than were mounted on the french coast at that time.
they were all naval or costal artillery guns operated on proper mountings. covering the minefields along the coast.
they could have inflicted severe damage to any landing attempt, Naval gunfire support for the germans is quite limited,
Saphroneth
Banned
The perennial problem with coastal guns at this time is accuracy over long ranges, so only those guns quite close in would be really useful - call it 1/2 to 1/3 maximum range. (Citation: the German channel guns never sunk a warship.)
sharlin
Banned
To be honest i'd say that the long range guns on both sides were more a propaganda and deterrent. The guns the UK had in place at the time are beach defences that cover possible landing points, they won't factor into the naval battle until the Germans make their approach towards the shore.
My thoughts too, they were positioned to cover the final approach at key points ... line of sight type stuff. As the run in will take anywhere in the region of 2+ hours (at least that's what I'm assuming here) there will be plenty of opportunity for some damage to be done.
sharlin
Banned
Indeed, with a 2 hour run in and assuming the guns remain in action without Luftwaffe or counter battery damage taking them out they'd probably shoot out their rifling or simply exhaust their ammo in 2 hours of solid firing.
Whilst some of the guns would benifit from director firing (the 9.2's for example,) the emplaced 6 inch and down would not and would rely on the crew firing them with some aid from spotting.
Whilst some of the guns would benifit from director firing (the 9.2's for example,) the emplaced 6 inch and down would not and would rely on the crew firing them with some aid from spotting.
Battle of the Channel - Part One
(23rd September) 22:30 – Destroyers HMS Viscount (D 92), HMS Brilliant (H 84), HMS Witherington (D 76) and HMS Wolverine (D 78) out on patrol off the north French coast are ordered to investigate the large numbers of German shipping reported as departing the Channel ports. Within 15 minutes contact is made, and despite a valiant effort both the Viscount and Witherington are sunk. The remaining destroyers are suffer damage and withdraw. During the brief but violent engagement the Destroyers claim two barges sunk and a transport ship damaged and put out of action.
23:15 – A small group of motor torpedo and patrol boats from Dover and Ramsgate meet head on with the lead elements of the German convoy. Despite firing all available torpedoes no damage is observed and the small flotilla turn and try to make their escape. Fully alerted to the danger a group of German escorts open fire, sinking one MTB and two patrol boats and damaging another.
23:30 – Just off the coast at Ramsgate the forces that had left Harwich and Sheerness combine in readiness to attack the eastern flank of the German convoy. The orders are to break into groups of no less than four ships and penetrate as deeply as possible causing disruption to the transport elements of the invasion fleet. Group one will consist of the Light Cruiser HMS Aurora (12), Destroyers HMS Campbell (D 60), HMS Wolsey (L 02) and the Escort Destroyer HMS Berkeley (L 17). Group two will be Light Cruiser HMS Curacoa (D 41), Destroyers HMS Vesper (D 55), HMS Venetia (D 53) and the Escort Destroyer HMS Cattistock (L 35). The remaining Destroyers, HMS Mackay (D 70), HMS Malcolm (D 19), HMS Venomous (D 75), HMS Verity (D 63), HMS Wild Swan (D 62), HMS Wivern (D 66), HMS Worcester (D 96), HMS Fernie (L 11), HMS Garth (L 20), HMS Hambledon (L 37) and HMS Holderness (L 48) were to split into two groups for the attack. In conjunction with these attacks the 10 MTBs of the 1st and 4th Motor Torpedo Boat flotillas, also from Harwich, were ordered to stay on the eastern flank and target any larger ships acting as a screening force.
(24th September) 00:15 – A group of 23 armed trawlers led by the Fleet Minesweeper HMS Hebe (J 24), all from Dover, make contact with the lead elements of the German convoy. A running skirmish begins as a small group of 4” armed ASW Trawlers aided by the clear skies close to within visual range of the transport convoy culminating in the sinking of the German Tug Vulkan and the damage and destruction of several other vessels.
00:35 – The Destroyers HMS Beagle (H 30) and HMS Bulldog (H 91), supported by five MTBs of the 3rd and 10th Flotillas approaching from Portsmouth make contact with a strong force of approximately 10-15 German escorts screening the western flank of the invasion area. This unexpected force take the initiative sinking the Beagle before the RN ships are able to respond. In this one sided battle HMS Bulldog is also badly hit whilst covering the retreat of the MTBs and begins to sink as she also tries to make her escape. Only three of the MTBs make it back to port.
00:45 – With the larger German escorts occupied on the western flank the Sheerness/Harwich force easily break through the weak defensive screen on the eastern flank and begin their task of disrupting the convoy. The only casualty on the British side is the Escort Destroyer Holderness, which limped back to Dover for emergency repairs to large hole just above the waterline from a 4” shell fired by the tender Wilhelm Bauer.
During the first hour of the 24th September, the Sheerness/Harwich task force damage or sink 24 transports of varying sizes in addition to the tug and 5 transports brought to a standstill by the Dover trawlers. In reply the Germans sink two of the Dover trawlers and force 2 others to return to port damaged.
(23rd September) 22:30 – Destroyers HMS Viscount (D 92), HMS Brilliant (H 84), HMS Witherington (D 76) and HMS Wolverine (D 78) out on patrol off the north French coast are ordered to investigate the large numbers of German shipping reported as departing the Channel ports. Within 15 minutes contact is made, and despite a valiant effort both the Viscount and Witherington are sunk. The remaining destroyers are suffer damage and withdraw. During the brief but violent engagement the Destroyers claim two barges sunk and a transport ship damaged and put out of action.
23:15 – A small group of motor torpedo and patrol boats from Dover and Ramsgate meet head on with the lead elements of the German convoy. Despite firing all available torpedoes no damage is observed and the small flotilla turn and try to make their escape. Fully alerted to the danger a group of German escorts open fire, sinking one MTB and two patrol boats and damaging another.
23:30 – Just off the coast at Ramsgate the forces that had left Harwich and Sheerness combine in readiness to attack the eastern flank of the German convoy. The orders are to break into groups of no less than four ships and penetrate as deeply as possible causing disruption to the transport elements of the invasion fleet. Group one will consist of the Light Cruiser HMS Aurora (12), Destroyers HMS Campbell (D 60), HMS Wolsey (L 02) and the Escort Destroyer HMS Berkeley (L 17). Group two will be Light Cruiser HMS Curacoa (D 41), Destroyers HMS Vesper (D 55), HMS Venetia (D 53) and the Escort Destroyer HMS Cattistock (L 35). The remaining Destroyers, HMS Mackay (D 70), HMS Malcolm (D 19), HMS Venomous (D 75), HMS Verity (D 63), HMS Wild Swan (D 62), HMS Wivern (D 66), HMS Worcester (D 96), HMS Fernie (L 11), HMS Garth (L 20), HMS Hambledon (L 37) and HMS Holderness (L 48) were to split into two groups for the attack. In conjunction with these attacks the 10 MTBs of the 1st and 4th Motor Torpedo Boat flotillas, also from Harwich, were ordered to stay on the eastern flank and target any larger ships acting as a screening force.
(24th September) 00:15 – A group of 23 armed trawlers led by the Fleet Minesweeper HMS Hebe (J 24), all from Dover, make contact with the lead elements of the German convoy. A running skirmish begins as a small group of 4” armed ASW Trawlers aided by the clear skies close to within visual range of the transport convoy culminating in the sinking of the German Tug Vulkan and the damage and destruction of several other vessels.
00:35 – The Destroyers HMS Beagle (H 30) and HMS Bulldog (H 91), supported by five MTBs of the 3rd and 10th Flotillas approaching from Portsmouth make contact with a strong force of approximately 10-15 German escorts screening the western flank of the invasion area. This unexpected force take the initiative sinking the Beagle before the RN ships are able to respond. In this one sided battle HMS Bulldog is also badly hit whilst covering the retreat of the MTBs and begins to sink as she also tries to make her escape. Only three of the MTBs make it back to port.
00:45 – With the larger German escorts occupied on the western flank the Sheerness/Harwich force easily break through the weak defensive screen on the eastern flank and begin their task of disrupting the convoy. The only casualty on the British side is the Escort Destroyer Holderness, which limped back to Dover for emergency repairs to large hole just above the waterline from a 4” shell fired by the tender Wilhelm Bauer.
During the first hour of the 24th September, the Sheerness/Harwich task force damage or sink 24 transports of varying sizes in addition to the tug and 5 transports brought to a standstill by the Dover trawlers. In reply the Germans sink two of the Dover trawlers and force 2 others to return to port damaged.
Saphroneth
Banned
Sorry to nag, but - what actually sunk the Viscount and Witherington? Torps? DD gunfire?
I mean, I appreciate your efforts, but I can't actually tell what German ships are doing all this sinking of destroyers - which is important, because they've only got about a dozen warships in the entire theater and roughly the same number of MTBs.
I mean, I appreciate your efforts, but I can't actually tell what German ships are doing all this sinking of destroyers - which is important, because they've only got about a dozen warships in the entire theater and roughly the same number of MTBs.