Thande
Donor
Off the top of my head this is the best Wade-Giles map of China I could find, from the 1958 edition of the Times Atlas of the World.
Rumsfeldia: Fear and Loathing in the Decade of Tears
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Off the top of my head this is the best Wade-Giles map of China I could find, from the 1958 edition of the Times Atlas of the World.
Thande
Donor
Nice work. I don't think Quebec is actually independent though--the idea is they voted yes in a referendum but what's currently happening is wrangling over what will happen next, in the meantime of which Quebec is still part of Canada (except in Levesque's mind perhaps...)
Heavy
Banned
Certainly a riveting introduction. I read the previous timeline while it was in progress, but since I didn't have an account at the time I didn't leave any feedback. Regardless, I'm certainly looking forward to this story.
It's too bad about MTV, although I suppose with no Duran Duran to keep it going between its inception and the arrival of Thriller in 1983, it was probably inevitable.
It's too bad about MTV, although I suppose with no Duran Duran to keep it going between its inception and the arrival of Thriller in 1983, it was probably inevitable.
Yay!
Although the fact that this came out at the same time as a LTTW update completely ate my Sunday evening. You two will have to coordinate better in the future.
Question about the former CAR -- in this it's part of Zaire/Congo, but I thought an earlier update had Mobutu forced to relinquish control of the area back to a French-backed regime?
Although the fact that this came out at the same time as a LTTW update completely ate my Sunday evening. You two will have to coordinate better in the future.
Question about the former CAR -- in this it's part of Zaire/Congo, but I thought an earlier update had Mobutu forced to relinquish control of the area back to a French-backed regime?
Winston Smith
Banned
This is the second best TL I've ever read! Is that an Independent Basque State I see?
It looks like this TL is going to end horribly! And we wouldn't want it any other way!
It looks like this TL is going to end horribly! And we wouldn't want it any other way!
Replies to comments
All of your comments are very interesting and helpful. Those of you who did maps - thanks - you're better cartographers than me.
This post is to address a few things that have come-up (this is as far as I’ve read so-far; if yours isn’t addressed a response will come later) in no particular order:
Some things did get by in the editing, so Princess Margaret was substituting for her nephew King George VII in Antigua – perhaps dedicating a memorial to her late sister Queen Elizabeth II.
The President of Gambia wasn’t in London for that wedding – but he did come to strongly request assistance from the British government to protect his country from the hordes just over the mountains.
I haven’t made any reference to the Buran project in the USSR because the U.S. program hasn’t been as effective, and because Dimitri Ustinov hasn’t been in the Politburo to champion it. It might also be a possibility that the failure of the American program might have been the result of an effort by Soviet agents in the American program (since a former KGB chair is in the leadership for most of the late 70’s and early 80’s – different emphasis to achieve the same result – neutralize the American program – at lower cost). The Soviet American specialists would also be aware that there was no enthusiasm for the shuttle in either the Wallace or Rumsfeld White House. ITTL covert action was deemed more economically sound than an expensive shuttle project. The USSR would also be watching the Ariane project too.
There’s no real co-ordination between the Rumsfeld Administration and the Mitterrand government. More a case of related moves to protect interests.
The Rumsfeld economic program had a very large appeal to Republicans and Libertarians, especially Libertarians on a number of points (reducing government, cutting taxes, lifting regulations, privatizations) – even picking on Justice Marshall has an aim at Libertarians who dislike big government judges (and helpfully draws along Republicans and conservative Southern Democrats). This is entirely consistent with the early memos, in as much as he’s building a new coalition for himself.
In FLG’72 Thande helpfully drew-up a map of how the vote broke out in the last election (see below), especially where the third party vote was strongest. Mr. Cheney and company would be studying such a map very closely, in fact he’d probably have one mounted on his office wall (and maybe at home too). For Rumsfeld’s re-election (presuming the Electoral College is around in 1984) he needs to neutralize the threats to his side, while empowering threats to his opponents. If he can strengthen WTP in the Northeast, he can weaken Democrats there, and perhaps attract voters to the Republican Party (lots of EV). If he can strengthen the CV in the South, he can weaken traditional Democratic structures there while building support among the smaller Republican base, which gives him the potential to pick-up some states. In the west, if he can co-opt the Libertarians he can make them part of a Republican coalition (effectively crush them as an independent party, as the memos implied) and pick-up EV, or by giving the reasonable Libertarians what they want, he can make the true believers seem more extreme, in effect pulling support from less extreme supporters back to the Republican Party.
If the EC is abolished, look for Rumsfeld to back a run-off process so he can draw a disparate (and desperate too) coalition together, while doing what he can to ensure that the Democrats and the WTP can’t work together.
There was a question about Bob Dole’s position. Yes, Dole helped bring Agnew down, and then lost his Senate seat in the aftermath (Rummy may have taken some satisfaction in that). But here’s a couple of true stories about the real Rumsfeld. He and Cheney were close in the Nixon-Ford Administration, but Cheney refused to support Rumsfeld’s 1988 Presidential campaign, which infuriated Rumsfeld. However, they later made-up when they joined forces again politically in the 1990’s. Similarly, Rumsfeld hated George Bush Sr., but he didn’t mind working for Bush Jr, and actually developed a good relationship with him. The man has shown a degree of practicality in his grudges. Incidentally, OTL Rumsfeld maintained a relationship with Nixon who advised him on his political moves in the 1980’s and early 1990’s: it stemmed from their relationship in Nixon’s first term (ITTL only term) when Nixon tried to mentor Rumsfeld. The meeting between Rumsfeld and Nixon ITTL reflects that continuing relationship at work.
For this TL I’m assuming Dole, as a former RNC Chair, was helpful to Rumsfeld in the Republican primaries and as a result received the reward of a Cabinet post (where he would be useful given his Senate and Party experience). Rumsfeld decided to put him on the court because overall Dole is more conservative than liberal (at least as much or more so than the Justice he was replacing) and he was an easier confirmation as Dole still had friends in the Senate. If there’s a broader message, it’s that President Rumsfeld will overlook past grudges if someone helps him out, and will reward said person. Incentive to those in the Republican Party who are still bitter over his defeat of Reagan.
I’m glad some people were rooting for Rumsfeld. As you saw with George Wallace, it isn’t all black-and-white J
George Wallace’s health actually did deteriorate during this period. He was in very poor condition during his last term as Alabama Governor (1983 – 1987) and really a shadow of his former self. ITTL I moved forward what happened to Wallace based on the added pressures of the Presidency. Of course he may still shoot spit balls at his successor.
I’m not an expert on local government in Britain, but I’m taking for granted that the Local Government Reform Act of 1972 went through as it was in process before the POD hit Britain, and the government that first brought it in was in office for a second term after the British POD. Other issues have had a greater focus from 1974 – 1981, but further reform might well be something a second Healey government might tackle. I’ll have to use a later electoral map going forward. (Next election won’t be until 1985 or 1986 – unless something unexpected happens, of course.)
Some maps are gradually changing – The Azores and Medeira are effectively independent of Portugal; there is a Basque entity in the north of Spain, there are still two Vietnams, and the U.S. may add another state. Quebec has voted for independence. Niger, Chad and Mali have been effectively wiped out under their previous post-colonial forms, but I used the map with the old nations as familiar checkpoints. Arabia is a mess, where the reference is relying on old boundaries as points of reference, but you couldn’t exactly call the interior one country as it was under Saudi times. Ditto China. Time will change more things.
OTL Donald Rumsfeld thought the “Star Wars” (SDI) idea was complete idiocy. His preference was for ABM and “greater depth striking power solutions” (more and bigger missiles on submarines and land). Weaponizing of space is a real possibility, although private corporations will have to do it.
The idea of developing private contractor armies has sound appeal too (it seems to have been the way to get around the manpower/foreign legion issue as they came up OTL, although it wasn’t put in those terms). During the Wallace years ITTL they were hiring units from foreign armies to do some fighting for them, so it’s possible it will reach fruition.
I suppose I could be complete cynic and say useful idiots are always there to find no matter the situation – it certainly seems so OTL. For this TL, I’ve just juggled some to come-up in more – diverting – combinations.
With regard to the maps of China, I’m trying to reflect a pre-1980’s usage, since the PRC wasn’t around to champion Pinyin. I apologize if I got anything wrong as I went back forth between the newer and older; I’m the first to admit that I’m not a Chinese linguist. Also I’m not the best artist either. I made changes to the map, but I may have left some things alone where trying to make the change only made the map blurrier or harder to read. Given my skills, or relative lack thereof, I’m providing what might be considered rough visual guides to what’s going on to supplement narrative.
If I was going to do this for publication I would have better maps, and would even experiment with having interactive maps that show a progress over time rather than static drawings.
Donald Woods. Oops- big continuity error there. Let’s retcon that to an assassination attempt in London, which draws more attention to the anti-South African cause. Or equally, another Anglo-South African publisher could have been targeted. I don’t think Woods was unique as the only one in South Africa.
Rhodesia is a buffer zone now. You wouldn’t want to live there in TTL.
The ZPLF cell that got to Witwatersrand University got there because the Malan regime wanted them to get there, so they could be busted at the last minute. Scare tactic for justifying further repressive measures.
I believe Sanjay Gandhi meant to say that the Das government’s treatment of his mother was cruel – but the press misprinted the quote (perhaps intentionally)
Congress cut research funding for civilian NARCRIS (AIDS) research because of the (assumed) relationship to drug addiction and a prevailing attitude against it. The military research went into the black budget.
The fight between calling it AIDS and calling it NARCRIS could be presented as part of a political struggle between a minority in the scientific community who want to do further research without attaching moral issues to the matter, and those who see the diseases as political as well as a health issue (the “establishment” view at this time). I’m still thinking about how that is going to play itself out over the decade.
With regard to Mali; I started moving the PJO there before the current events OTL since Mali was an Islamic area that was largely open. Current events have been happening in Mali as this TL has been written – spooky coincidence.
Impeaching Justice Marshall is a case of ideology run amok, as well as an attempt to create a touchstone issue by which purists can identify who is with them and who is against them. I conceive of it as a kind of Bork nomination in reverse, only in this case it deals with a sitting justice. The proponents are prosecuting their opponents ideology more than they are the individual. It also has under-tones of striking back at the Civil Rights settlement of the sixties (as you find in some of the OTL Tea Party ideology). Rumsfeld and associates wouldn’t mind being rid of Marshall, although removal in the Senate is a long shot. But as a hot button issue, it also serves as a bit of a distraction while the Administration does other stuff.
Yes, there’s a new Democratic leadership of which Sen. Carter is an important part that’s beginning to smell the coffee and brewing their own. Rummy’s not going to have it all his own way. IMHO the historical Carter was a victim of circumstance in the Presidency. I’m presenting Carter under a new light, in this case as a legislative leader. (I have a pet peeve against people who believe that a Carter-Reagan contest in 1976 would have come out the same as the Carter-Reagan contest did in 1980. Without that bad Presidency on his record, Carter was an entirely different figure.)
ITTL the Democratic Party is still suffering from the effects of being swept by Southern populism over two election cycles - McKeithen in 72 and Wallace in 76. That, in part, created fractures which lead to the WTP people breaking off (though they also have ties to the McGovern split in '72 which is also part of their history - even if, ironically, McGovern himself came back to the Democratic Party, some of his 72 followers did not). While this has arrested the Republican southern strategy, it has also left the Democrats with a sense of schizophrenia about who they are and what they stand for (OTL one of the benefits of the Republican Southern Strategy is that it weakened the boll weevil influence enough that the party shook loose of its Southern conservative block and as such developed a more progressive identity). At this point new leaders are moving in, but the Democrats are still better at defining what they oppose than at identifying clearly what they are for.
On the other hand, the Boll weevil block of the party can argue, with some justification, that its candidates won two of the last three Presidential elections.
Rumsfeld is also a conservative on Federalism (was too OTL in this period), so attacking Marshall on an otherwise obscure point of federalism serves to highlight federalist overreach by the Democrats and the left, and allows the Republicans and the right to re-frame themselves as the champions of federalism through a hot button issue (as they see it; it is a subjective strategy, such as – more people will vote for the anti-tax guy, therefore the anti-tax guy will win the Presidential election.). Rarick could become an irritant born of the dilemma between the President’s preferred ideology and the need to act in the interest of the Federal power. Nothing ever goes smoothly for those in power.
The Rumsfeld of this period was a staunch Cold warrior, and as such a big military type. The small force Defense Secretary OTL was the product of a later period and different circumstances. Also, TTL Rumsfeld has not had the experience of having been Defense Secretary, so is less aware of the realities of operating a large military.
ITTL Bobby Sands is (and the others are) is just a protestor(s), with a violent past associated to him (them). My thought was in having the hunger protestors force fed to keep them from dying the Labour government stops the creation of martyrs, and at the same time appears more humane for preventing their deaths. The situation of Sands may also lead Parliament to pass a measure that prevents incarcerated criminals from running for or holding public office.
Britain without Thatcherism will look more like the ‘70’s, although a right-of-center Labour government under Healey may well try some market oriented reforms to get the economy moving, but not in the drastic way that was implemented under Thatcher. Of course there’s always the potential for a future form of Neveism or ?ism that could be even more direct than Thatcherism was. (as in Rumsfeldomics v. Reaganomics). The future is always so hard to see, always changing, it is. Seriously, one of the elements that will continue to grow in British political society will be right-wing dissatisfaction, which will be looking for new leadership and working harder to bring about its agenda.
I use Wikipedia as a framework skeleton, which is sometimes some errata such as Queen Elizabeth II in Antigua slips through the editing process. What I use it for is to get an idea of what happened in the period, and I’ll use natural events, sports stories (I’ll change some, leave others as OTL), other events that either relate to what I’m doing or which IMO would not have been affected by the change of TL (earthquakes and the like don’t much care what humans are doing). I remove those events which quite obviously couldn’t happen as OTL because of the changes. Then I add stuff, modify it as well as laying my on-going narratives over it. I’ll go to history orb, things I’ve read for info. I use the CAIN chronology for Northern Ireland. The Mitt Romney incident in 1981 came from The Real Romney. The death of Hunter Thompson is an alteration of real incident that did occur. Etc. Sometimes biographies of the players give me other ideas (I’m currently reading By His Own Rules about old Rummy).
For anyone who thinks Spiro Agnew as Mayor of New York is strange or antic, I invite you to research Mayor Rob Ford of Toronto. You simply can’t invent that kind of stuff.
I’ve lived through these Separatist referenda in Quebec, so in this TL I laid the groundwork for this to go the other way than OTL. The rest is the political and Constitutional nightmare that many predicted. Canadians of course, don’t fight civil wars. We civil litigate to death. Quebec is not yet independent and part of the debate is what the borders of an independent Quebec would be.
I think I did chase the Zaireans out of the old CAR at one point, but I can cover that by saying that the place collapsed into Civil War after Mobutu's forces left, so they moved in again to restore order (and try and gobble-up the country again).
Donald Trump - well, there is some justice ITTL
All of your comments are very interesting and helpful. Those of you who did maps - thanks - you're better cartographers than me.
This post is to address a few things that have come-up (this is as far as I’ve read so-far; if yours isn’t addressed a response will come later) in no particular order:
Some things did get by in the editing, so Princess Margaret was substituting for her nephew King George VII in Antigua – perhaps dedicating a memorial to her late sister Queen Elizabeth II.
The President of Gambia wasn’t in London for that wedding – but he did come to strongly request assistance from the British government to protect his country from the hordes just over the mountains.
I haven’t made any reference to the Buran project in the USSR because the U.S. program hasn’t been as effective, and because Dimitri Ustinov hasn’t been in the Politburo to champion it. It might also be a possibility that the failure of the American program might have been the result of an effort by Soviet agents in the American program (since a former KGB chair is in the leadership for most of the late 70’s and early 80’s – different emphasis to achieve the same result – neutralize the American program – at lower cost). The Soviet American specialists would also be aware that there was no enthusiasm for the shuttle in either the Wallace or Rumsfeld White House. ITTL covert action was deemed more economically sound than an expensive shuttle project. The USSR would also be watching the Ariane project too.
There’s no real co-ordination between the Rumsfeld Administration and the Mitterrand government. More a case of related moves to protect interests.
The Rumsfeld economic program had a very large appeal to Republicans and Libertarians, especially Libertarians on a number of points (reducing government, cutting taxes, lifting regulations, privatizations) – even picking on Justice Marshall has an aim at Libertarians who dislike big government judges (and helpfully draws along Republicans and conservative Southern Democrats). This is entirely consistent with the early memos, in as much as he’s building a new coalition for himself.
In FLG’72 Thande helpfully drew-up a map of how the vote broke out in the last election (see below), especially where the third party vote was strongest. Mr. Cheney and company would be studying such a map very closely, in fact he’d probably have one mounted on his office wall (and maybe at home too). For Rumsfeld’s re-election (presuming the Electoral College is around in 1984) he needs to neutralize the threats to his side, while empowering threats to his opponents. If he can strengthen WTP in the Northeast, he can weaken Democrats there, and perhaps attract voters to the Republican Party (lots of EV). If he can strengthen the CV in the South, he can weaken traditional Democratic structures there while building support among the smaller Republican base, which gives him the potential to pick-up some states. In the west, if he can co-opt the Libertarians he can make them part of a Republican coalition (effectively crush them as an independent party, as the memos implied) and pick-up EV, or by giving the reasonable Libertarians what they want, he can make the true believers seem more extreme, in effect pulling support from less extreme supporters back to the Republican Party.
If the EC is abolished, look for Rumsfeld to back a run-off process so he can draw a disparate (and desperate too) coalition together, while doing what he can to ensure that the Democrats and the WTP can’t work together.
There was a question about Bob Dole’s position. Yes, Dole helped bring Agnew down, and then lost his Senate seat in the aftermath (Rummy may have taken some satisfaction in that). But here’s a couple of true stories about the real Rumsfeld. He and Cheney were close in the Nixon-Ford Administration, but Cheney refused to support Rumsfeld’s 1988 Presidential campaign, which infuriated Rumsfeld. However, they later made-up when they joined forces again politically in the 1990’s. Similarly, Rumsfeld hated George Bush Sr., but he didn’t mind working for Bush Jr, and actually developed a good relationship with him. The man has shown a degree of practicality in his grudges. Incidentally, OTL Rumsfeld maintained a relationship with Nixon who advised him on his political moves in the 1980’s and early 1990’s: it stemmed from their relationship in Nixon’s first term (ITTL only term) when Nixon tried to mentor Rumsfeld. The meeting between Rumsfeld and Nixon ITTL reflects that continuing relationship at work.
For this TL I’m assuming Dole, as a former RNC Chair, was helpful to Rumsfeld in the Republican primaries and as a result received the reward of a Cabinet post (where he would be useful given his Senate and Party experience). Rumsfeld decided to put him on the court because overall Dole is more conservative than liberal (at least as much or more so than the Justice he was replacing) and he was an easier confirmation as Dole still had friends in the Senate. If there’s a broader message, it’s that President Rumsfeld will overlook past grudges if someone helps him out, and will reward said person. Incentive to those in the Republican Party who are still bitter over his defeat of Reagan.
I’m glad some people were rooting for Rumsfeld. As you saw with George Wallace, it isn’t all black-and-white J
George Wallace’s health actually did deteriorate during this period. He was in very poor condition during his last term as Alabama Governor (1983 – 1987) and really a shadow of his former self. ITTL I moved forward what happened to Wallace based on the added pressures of the Presidency. Of course he may still shoot spit balls at his successor.
I’m not an expert on local government in Britain, but I’m taking for granted that the Local Government Reform Act of 1972 went through as it was in process before the POD hit Britain, and the government that first brought it in was in office for a second term after the British POD. Other issues have had a greater focus from 1974 – 1981, but further reform might well be something a second Healey government might tackle. I’ll have to use a later electoral map going forward. (Next election won’t be until 1985 or 1986 – unless something unexpected happens, of course.)
Some maps are gradually changing – The Azores and Medeira are effectively independent of Portugal; there is a Basque entity in the north of Spain, there are still two Vietnams, and the U.S. may add another state. Quebec has voted for independence. Niger, Chad and Mali have been effectively wiped out under their previous post-colonial forms, but I used the map with the old nations as familiar checkpoints. Arabia is a mess, where the reference is relying on old boundaries as points of reference, but you couldn’t exactly call the interior one country as it was under Saudi times. Ditto China. Time will change more things.
OTL Donald Rumsfeld thought the “Star Wars” (SDI) idea was complete idiocy. His preference was for ABM and “greater depth striking power solutions” (more and bigger missiles on submarines and land). Weaponizing of space is a real possibility, although private corporations will have to do it.
The idea of developing private contractor armies has sound appeal too (it seems to have been the way to get around the manpower/foreign legion issue as they came up OTL, although it wasn’t put in those terms). During the Wallace years ITTL they were hiring units from foreign armies to do some fighting for them, so it’s possible it will reach fruition.
I suppose I could be complete cynic and say useful idiots are always there to find no matter the situation – it certainly seems so OTL. For this TL, I’ve just juggled some to come-up in more – diverting – combinations.
Wikipedia said:
With regard to the maps of China, I’m trying to reflect a pre-1980’s usage, since the PRC wasn’t around to champion Pinyin. I apologize if I got anything wrong as I went back forth between the newer and older; I’m the first to admit that I’m not a Chinese linguist. Also I’m not the best artist either. I made changes to the map, but I may have left some things alone where trying to make the change only made the map blurrier or harder to read. Given my skills, or relative lack thereof, I’m providing what might be considered rough visual guides to what’s going on to supplement narrative.
If I was going to do this for publication I would have better maps, and would even experiment with having interactive maps that show a progress over time rather than static drawings.
Donald Woods. Oops- big continuity error there. Let’s retcon that to an assassination attempt in London, which draws more attention to the anti-South African cause. Or equally, another Anglo-South African publisher could have been targeted. I don’t think Woods was unique as the only one in South Africa.
Rhodesia is a buffer zone now. You wouldn’t want to live there in TTL.
The ZPLF cell that got to Witwatersrand University got there because the Malan regime wanted them to get there, so they could be busted at the last minute. Scare tactic for justifying further repressive measures.
I believe Sanjay Gandhi meant to say that the Das government’s treatment of his mother was cruel – but the press misprinted the quote (perhaps intentionally)
Congress cut research funding for civilian NARCRIS (AIDS) research because of the (assumed) relationship to drug addiction and a prevailing attitude against it. The military research went into the black budget.
The fight between calling it AIDS and calling it NARCRIS could be presented as part of a political struggle between a minority in the scientific community who want to do further research without attaching moral issues to the matter, and those who see the diseases as political as well as a health issue (the “establishment” view at this time). I’m still thinking about how that is going to play itself out over the decade.
With regard to Mali; I started moving the PJO there before the current events OTL since Mali was an Islamic area that was largely open. Current events have been happening in Mali as this TL has been written – spooky coincidence.
Impeaching Justice Marshall is a case of ideology run amok, as well as an attempt to create a touchstone issue by which purists can identify who is with them and who is against them. I conceive of it as a kind of Bork nomination in reverse, only in this case it deals with a sitting justice. The proponents are prosecuting their opponents ideology more than they are the individual. It also has under-tones of striking back at the Civil Rights settlement of the sixties (as you find in some of the OTL Tea Party ideology). Rumsfeld and associates wouldn’t mind being rid of Marshall, although removal in the Senate is a long shot. But as a hot button issue, it also serves as a bit of a distraction while the Administration does other stuff.
Yes, there’s a new Democratic leadership of which Sen. Carter is an important part that’s beginning to smell the coffee and brewing their own. Rummy’s not going to have it all his own way. IMHO the historical Carter was a victim of circumstance in the Presidency. I’m presenting Carter under a new light, in this case as a legislative leader. (I have a pet peeve against people who believe that a Carter-Reagan contest in 1976 would have come out the same as the Carter-Reagan contest did in 1980. Without that bad Presidency on his record, Carter was an entirely different figure.)
ITTL the Democratic Party is still suffering from the effects of being swept by Southern populism over two election cycles - McKeithen in 72 and Wallace in 76. That, in part, created fractures which lead to the WTP people breaking off (though they also have ties to the McGovern split in '72 which is also part of their history - even if, ironically, McGovern himself came back to the Democratic Party, some of his 72 followers did not). While this has arrested the Republican southern strategy, it has also left the Democrats with a sense of schizophrenia about who they are and what they stand for (OTL one of the benefits of the Republican Southern Strategy is that it weakened the boll weevil influence enough that the party shook loose of its Southern conservative block and as such developed a more progressive identity). At this point new leaders are moving in, but the Democrats are still better at defining what they oppose than at identifying clearly what they are for.
On the other hand, the Boll weevil block of the party can argue, with some justification, that its candidates won two of the last three Presidential elections.
Rumsfeld is also a conservative on Federalism (was too OTL in this period), so attacking Marshall on an otherwise obscure point of federalism serves to highlight federalist overreach by the Democrats and the left, and allows the Republicans and the right to re-frame themselves as the champions of federalism through a hot button issue (as they see it; it is a subjective strategy, such as – more people will vote for the anti-tax guy, therefore the anti-tax guy will win the Presidential election.). Rarick could become an irritant born of the dilemma between the President’s preferred ideology and the need to act in the interest of the Federal power. Nothing ever goes smoothly for those in power.
The Rumsfeld of this period was a staunch Cold warrior, and as such a big military type. The small force Defense Secretary OTL was the product of a later period and different circumstances. Also, TTL Rumsfeld has not had the experience of having been Defense Secretary, so is less aware of the realities of operating a large military.
ITTL Bobby Sands is (and the others are) is just a protestor(s), with a violent past associated to him (them). My thought was in having the hunger protestors force fed to keep them from dying the Labour government stops the creation of martyrs, and at the same time appears more humane for preventing their deaths. The situation of Sands may also lead Parliament to pass a measure that prevents incarcerated criminals from running for or holding public office.
Britain without Thatcherism will look more like the ‘70’s, although a right-of-center Labour government under Healey may well try some market oriented reforms to get the economy moving, but not in the drastic way that was implemented under Thatcher. Of course there’s always the potential for a future form of Neveism or ?ism that could be even more direct than Thatcherism was. (as in Rumsfeldomics v. Reaganomics). The future is always so hard to see, always changing, it is. Seriously, one of the elements that will continue to grow in British political society will be right-wing dissatisfaction, which will be looking for new leadership and working harder to bring about its agenda.
I use Wikipedia as a framework skeleton, which is sometimes some errata such as Queen Elizabeth II in Antigua slips through the editing process. What I use it for is to get an idea of what happened in the period, and I’ll use natural events, sports stories (I’ll change some, leave others as OTL), other events that either relate to what I’m doing or which IMO would not have been affected by the change of TL (earthquakes and the like don’t much care what humans are doing). I remove those events which quite obviously couldn’t happen as OTL because of the changes. Then I add stuff, modify it as well as laying my on-going narratives over it. I’ll go to history orb, things I’ve read for info. I use the CAIN chronology for Northern Ireland. The Mitt Romney incident in 1981 came from The Real Romney. The death of Hunter Thompson is an alteration of real incident that did occur. Etc. Sometimes biographies of the players give me other ideas (I’m currently reading By His Own Rules about old Rummy).
For anyone who thinks Spiro Agnew as Mayor of New York is strange or antic, I invite you to research Mayor Rob Ford of Toronto. You simply can’t invent that kind of stuff.
I’ve lived through these Separatist referenda in Quebec, so in this TL I laid the groundwork for this to go the other way than OTL. The rest is the political and Constitutional nightmare that many predicted. Canadians of course, don’t fight civil wars. We civil litigate to death. Quebec is not yet independent and part of the debate is what the borders of an independent Quebec would be.
I think I did chase the Zaireans out of the old CAR at one point, but I can cover that by saying that the place collapsed into Civil War after Mobutu's forces left, so they moved in again to restore order (and try and gobble-up the country again).
Donald Trump - well, there is some justice ITTL
John Farson
Banned
Question: With the US now having been incessantly fighting wars and deploying troops overseas since 1964 as of 1981, might the US military be more technologically advanced compared to OTL 1981? For example, might we be seeing something like the PASGT helmet replacing the M1 Helmet earlier instead of OTL 1985 (OTL its first use was in Grenada in 1983)? Is US battlefield medicine also more developed compared to OTL?
Also, when was the draft ended TTL? Around the same time as OTL, or shortly after the end of the Vietnam War?
Also, when was the draft ended TTL? Around the same time as OTL, or shortly after the end of the Vietnam War?
Heavy
Banned
How likely is it that the Vice-President could end up in hot water over his insinuation that the Pope doesn't know very much about Christianity? I can't imagine it will affect Rumsfeld's standing with the nascent religious right in his own country appreciably (I'm pretty sure Jerry Falwell insisted that free market capitalism has Biblical antecedents IOTL), but it seems unlikely that it will win the government any friends internationally, especially with the Vatican's more proactive stance in global affairs.
I'm glad this is back, the update was great as always. It's really impressive how you write an integrated and convincing world timeline with such detail.
I've enjoyed seeing Britain under Healey's leadership in this TL, perhaps the most formidable Labour politican of the post-war period who never became leader and Prime Minister. With the collapse of Bretton Woods and an increasingly globalised economy, Britain's economic management is going to have to change as you say. Healey as Chancellor under Callaghan OTL did perhaps demonstrate the possibility of an alternative path to Thatcherism, as after the IMF crisis of 1976 he practiced a Keynesianism moderated by concerns market confidence and the money supply and successfully lowered unemployment and inflation from 1977-1979.
Of course, this was meaningless without significant reform of industrial relations. The Callaghan government assigned the Bullock Committee to look at the issue and was considering following its proposals. The main problem of the British system was that the trade union leadership was increasingly detached from the more militant shop stewards who were calling wildcat strikes and were unrepresentative of their members. The committee wanted Britain to imitate the West German model of integrating business and trade unions with work councils and more democratic trade unions (these were proposals that even right-wing Conservatives were considering). Whether this could have worked is debatable, but it was certainly the option the Labour Right was moving towards at the time and was an alternative approach to Thatcher's of democratization with confrontation.
I liked how the Healey government took a more pragmatic approach to the coal mines. I may have missed it, but has North Sea Oil begun to take effect yet? Also, another thing, OTL Callaghan nearly adopted a policy of allowing tenants to buy their own council homes, which was very popular under Thatcher and was the logical progression of Labour Right thought.
I've enjoyed seeing Britain under Healey's leadership in this TL, perhaps the most formidable Labour politican of the post-war period who never became leader and Prime Minister. With the collapse of Bretton Woods and an increasingly globalised economy, Britain's economic management is going to have to change as you say. Healey as Chancellor under Callaghan OTL did perhaps demonstrate the possibility of an alternative path to Thatcherism, as after the IMF crisis of 1976 he practiced a Keynesianism moderated by concerns market confidence and the money supply and successfully lowered unemployment and inflation from 1977-1979.
Of course, this was meaningless without significant reform of industrial relations. The Callaghan government assigned the Bullock Committee to look at the issue and was considering following its proposals. The main problem of the British system was that the trade union leadership was increasingly detached from the more militant shop stewards who were calling wildcat strikes and were unrepresentative of their members. The committee wanted Britain to imitate the West German model of integrating business and trade unions with work councils and more democratic trade unions (these were proposals that even right-wing Conservatives were considering). Whether this could have worked is debatable, but it was certainly the option the Labour Right was moving towards at the time and was an alternative approach to Thatcher's of democratization with confrontation.
I liked how the Healey government took a more pragmatic approach to the coal mines. I may have missed it, but has North Sea Oil begun to take effect yet? Also, another thing, OTL Callaghan nearly adopted a policy of allowing tenants to buy their own council homes, which was very popular under Thatcher and was the logical progression of Labour Right thought.
Looking at the original China occupation map again, it's a bit unclear as to who controls Peking. Is it only the US and her allies or some sort of international thing involving the USSR as well? Also, I just realized that the entire area south of the Yangtze river has a massive bulk of China's population, being the historically rice-rich regions. The terrain is also quite frustrating and conducive to guerrilla movements. I wonder if the occupation zone isn't too large.
Archibald
Banned
November 13, 1981
New Mayor of New York Spiro Agnew blast Nixon and Rumsfeld over shuttle catastrophe and NASA crisis
"It should be remembered that, back in 1969 as a Vice-President I sincerely and passionately pushed for a major budget effort aimed at landing men on the planet Mars by the year 1982. Incidentally, the grand trip was to start on November 12, 1981 - yesterday, the very day space shuttle Columbia blew up.
It says a lot about the value of others Republican before and after myself in the White House - Richard Nixon,and, above all, Donald Rumsfeld. I won't even speak of those nabobs Gavin and Wallace - they are not even worth mentionning.
Whatever, they all plotted to kill a space program I, Spiro Agnew, sincerely encouraged with my conterpart at NASA, Tom Paine... needless to say, employement suffered a lot from all those high-skilled space jobs lost to Europe and Japan."
President Rumsfeld declined to make any comment.
As for Richard Nixon, he declared
"Spiro Agnew just couldn't find a useful role as Vice President. Because the Vice President also happened to be chairman of the Space Council, he stupidly surrendered to NASA lobby and pressure. Jack Kennedy, blindly followed by Johnson, had given them a $20 billion blank check to land a man on the Moon before the end of the decade, and now they asked my administration for another, $100 billion check to do the same thing on Mars "before this century is out".
And then, what would they have asked for ? ten trillion dollars to go to Alpha Centauri ? I had to stop that madness, and the shuttle looked an attractive proposal to kickstart a profitable space industry - the exact opposite of a foolish Mars shot. That was a true vision, unlike Agnew irresponsable scheme. I will also remember Mr Agnew that he properly buried a join space flight with the Soviets I imagined as a symbol of my detente policy he sabotaged during his tenure."
New Mayor of New York Spiro Agnew blast Nixon and Rumsfeld over shuttle catastrophe and NASA crisis
"It should be remembered that, back in 1969 as a Vice-President I sincerely and passionately pushed for a major budget effort aimed at landing men on the planet Mars by the year 1982. Incidentally, the grand trip was to start on November 12, 1981 - yesterday, the very day space shuttle Columbia blew up.
It says a lot about the value of others Republican before and after myself in the White House - Richard Nixon,and, above all, Donald Rumsfeld. I won't even speak of those nabobs Gavin and Wallace - they are not even worth mentionning.
Whatever, they all plotted to kill a space program I, Spiro Agnew, sincerely encouraged with my conterpart at NASA, Tom Paine... needless to say, employement suffered a lot from all those high-skilled space jobs lost to Europe and Japan."
President Rumsfeld declined to make any comment.
As for Richard Nixon, he declared
"Spiro Agnew just couldn't find a useful role as Vice President. Because the Vice President also happened to be chairman of the Space Council, he stupidly surrendered to NASA lobby and pressure. Jack Kennedy, blindly followed by Johnson, had given them a $20 billion blank check to land a man on the Moon before the end of the decade, and now they asked my administration for another, $100 billion check to do the same thing on Mars "before this century is out".
And then, what would they have asked for ? ten trillion dollars to go to Alpha Centauri ? I had to stop that madness, and the shuttle looked an attractive proposal to kickstart a profitable space industry - the exact opposite of a foolish Mars shot. That was a true vision, unlike Agnew irresponsable scheme. I will also remember Mr Agnew that he properly buried a join space flight with the Soviets I imagined as a symbol of my detente policy he sabotaged during his tenure."
Thande
Donor
Thanks to Drew for responding to everyone's comments like that, we appreciate it.
I think the US military is probably not more technologically advanced than OTL on balance (more practical stuff, less blue-sky projects), but is better at fighting actual wars against realistic opponents rather than endlessly planning for WW3 compared to OTL.
OK, that makes more sense. Here's an OTL map of the 1983 election--this is the map that would be used. I've coloured in the OTL results in pale shades so it's easy to see what constituency is which, and then if anyone wants to try showing the TTL results (I might do it myself at some point) they can colour over them with darker shades.
I noticed the lack of North Korean involvement in the operations in post-Mao China. What is explanation for that?
It is especially weird because North Korea has more reasons to get involved than South Korea (old Korean claims on Manchurian territory and Gando)
and Mongolia (still recovering from the Mongolian War).
And there is North Korea's post-Kim Il-sung leadership's need for domestic legitimation.
It is especially weird because North Korea has more reasons to get involved than South Korea (old Korean claims on Manchurian territory and Gando)
and Mongolia (still recovering from the Mongolian War).
And there is North Korea's post-Kim Il-sung leadership's need for domestic legitimation.
I was thinking the same thing, "Hey, he actually seems pretty sensible, a bit overeager to intervene but someone's got to help the people of China. And so far nothing that looks like a stealthy De Gaulle-style coup, like in those earlier memos, just trying to hold together a weird coalition."... then I read about weaponizing NARCRIS/AIDS.
Damnit, Rummy! I was just starting to root for you!
Rumsfeld and the Neo-Cons IRL think they're Machavellian plotters but truth be told they are utter screw-ups useless at anything outside election campagining.
I'm just waiting for their stance on China, the U.S.S.R, South Africa or AIDs to backfire on them in a godawful way.
Hell their treatment of the French alone has already given the Soviets a s**t-load of free tech to go with the petro-dollers they're making & the scary boogy-man Rumsfeld provides to help rally their population.
The Soviet bloc would want them involved.
Drew did not call it the Asian Bulgaria without good reasons
Yeah, I'd expect them to at least take the ethnic Korean prefecture of Yanbian.
Let's say they're in there with their Soviet and Mongolian allies, doing their part for Fraternal Socialist solidarity. And yes, they'll be making a forceful effort to re-address the border with China, which in turn will cause friction between them, the Soviet controlled PRC group and over which the Soviets will have to act as brokers. We can assume the North Korean navy is also backing-up the Soviet fleet in northern waters.
Since the fall of Kim Il Sung ITTL they've been a military dictatorship, still reclusive, but not as odd ball as OTL Kim Dynasty DPRK.
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