Is there any way to have a Roman Empire that never christianized? If so what would the effects be? I can think of some changes. Mainly a lot less pagans being killed. Thoughts?
Reborn Roman Empire
- Thread starter Serenity2589
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Western Europe becomes a far darker place than otl if it still falls to barbarian tribes.
That really depends on what replaces Christianity in this scenario. If Roman religion somehow fails to evolve, you're right. But odds are some sort of Hellenistic faith or faiths would evolve to dominate the Empire and fill the niche of Christianity. It might serve as a similar bastion of culture and learning. Monasticism got its origins before Christianity and there's plenty of potential prophets and philosophers in the Hellenic world.
In the uncertain and dangerous times of various crises, Romans will seek out some sort of social institution for protection and community, I believe. In our timeline that happened to be Christianity. In an alternate history it could be nearly anything.
That's a bit of a simplification. Hellenistic religion is not really much like Western Christianity insofar as it is not a macro-picture organized religion and is not really one that can be preached in any meaningful way, and the ability to subsume other gods, etc, collapses with the Roman state. Plenty of tales of Christian missionaries in England/Germany talk about how basically arbitrary pagan gods were in opposition to what they argued was a rational logical Christian God (the same argument was used I believe effectively to the Greek intelligentsia, using Socrates and Aristotle, etc). That wouldn't really work for Hellenism, and there was no real interest in missionary activity there to begin with due to the nature of it as a religion. There's no geopolitical influence, as opposed to (obviously) modern Catholicism but even early Western Christianity.
Could a new religion based on a roman religion fill the spot christianity took? Lets say worship of Jupiter and Juno in Rome is made the official religion but the rulers of Rome allow other faiths to exist so long as they don't rebel. Could we end up with a Two Deity Ruling Faith that has the same influence of christianity without the eventual forced conversions?
To be clear, I'm responding simply to Darthfanta's claim that everything would just be "darker" - that's difficult to know for certain, since the evolution of Greek thought in a world without Christianity is difficult to impossible to predict.
No, that's pretty improbable. A lot of Hellenic philosophers were playing with forms of philosophical monotheism, but it wouldn't look at all like Christianity. And it probably wouldn't just be a gross simplification of traditional Roman faith.
Yep. It could have become Jewish, or some weird syncretism of e.g. Mithraism and one of the Great Goddess cults. Less likely one of those latter two by itself; less likely yet, Sol Invictus. Long shot: Buddhism. Longer shot: some totally unhistorical religion someone invents.
Note that staying pagan isn't on the list, 'cause it isn't going to happen.
I dunno, it depends how you define paganism. I can visualize something rather like Hinduism emerging out of the various mystery cults and philosophies of the era. I also don't think "totally unhistorical" is totally unlikely in this case - although maybe I'm just working to defend my own timeline on the subject. We have an idea of one possible religion that could have developed, but there's really so many options.
Judaism would be pretty unrecognizable as the Roman religion. A lot of its core concepts are simply incompatible.
Paganism in say, 200 CE looked totally different than paganism three hundred years before which in turn looked totally different than paganism three hundred years before that. Without some revolutionary burst of monotheism, I think polytheism would continue changing and adapting. There's no inherent need for monotheism, nor is monotheism necessarily more advanced - it's just that certain monotheistic religions in our history have proven very very resilient and persuasive.
Judaism would be pretty unrecognizable as the Roman religion. A lot of its core concepts are simply incompatible.
Paganism in say, 200 CE looked totally different than paganism three hundred years before which in turn looked totally different than paganism three hundred years before that. Without some revolutionary burst of monotheism, I think polytheism would continue changing and adapting. There's no inherent need for monotheism, nor is monotheism necessarily more advanced - it's just that certain monotheistic religions in our history have proven very very resilient and persuasive.
When's the PoD?
If Constantine had lost, the official cult could well have been Sol Invictus - it was very popular with the emperors preceding him (indeed, he almost picked it, or Apollo, as his 'monotheistic' cult to back up his rule). Indeed, you could simply have a PoD where the 'miracle' that Constantine sees at the Battle of Milvian Bridge had instead been attributed to Sol Invictus/Apollo (or simply hadn't happened), you'd have a Rome without Christianity, in all likelihood. Constantine was the kind of guy who'd massively push to form some sort of unified cult (cf: Nicaea), and this could very well be the edge against Christianity.
Worship of the Sun is, unsurprisingly, about as old a religion as you can get - indeed, it would have been a pretty easy sell to natives. Add a few Abrahamic features (personal god that loves you, afterlife, etc etc), and you'd have a winning combination.
Does this make a difference to the Roman Empire? Well, maybe, actually. For a start, now you'd have three big religious directions - the old paganism with its bazillion cults, the new unified Solism, and the still horribly fractured Christianity (and Zoroastrianism and Judaism to the East). No idea how that could play out, but it might be rather interesting. Apart from anything else, what happens if, say, some of the Goths worship Christ but others go with Sol?
If Constantine had lost, the official cult could well have been Sol Invictus - it was very popular with the emperors preceding him (indeed, he almost picked it, or Apollo, as his 'monotheistic' cult to back up his rule). Indeed, you could simply have a PoD where the 'miracle' that Constantine sees at the Battle of Milvian Bridge had instead been attributed to Sol Invictus/Apollo (or simply hadn't happened), you'd have a Rome without Christianity, in all likelihood. Constantine was the kind of guy who'd massively push to form some sort of unified cult (cf: Nicaea), and this could very well be the edge against Christianity.
Worship of the Sun is, unsurprisingly, about as old a religion as you can get - indeed, it would have been a pretty easy sell to natives. Add a few Abrahamic features (personal god that loves you, afterlife, etc etc), and you'd have a winning combination.
Does this make a difference to the Roman Empire? Well, maybe, actually. For a start, now you'd have three big religious directions - the old paganism with its bazillion cults, the new unified Solism, and the still horribly fractured Christianity (and Zoroastrianism and Judaism to the East). No idea how that could play out, but it might be rather interesting. Apart from anything else, what happens if, say, some of the Goths worship Christ but others go with Sol?
That sounds interesting. With a POD before Milivian Bridge we could have a fractured europe divided mainly by the pagan religions the mono sun worship and christianity/judaism/zoroastrism. Maybe Italy itself split between Sun worship and Christianity with local pagan religions in italy being minor. Maybe the further you go from the centers of rome the further countries could possibly stay pagan for the most part. I have a feeling southern europe specifically Italy Spain Southern Gaul and Greece would be a battleground politically/spiritually/literally between Sun worship and christianity with the local pagan religions trying to survive. Would Solinism have to take after christianitys Hell viewpoint? Ie all non believers would be punished?
Easy enough. All the way back to Homer's time, one of the main attributes of the Sun (Helios there) was that he was all-seeing - indeed, he punishes Odysseus' crew for eating his cattle (well, demands their punishment anyway) and helps Hephaestus catch his cheating wife. It doesn't take a genius to take 'all-seeing, punishes wrongdoers' to 'all-seeing, punishes wrong-doers - and people who don't worship him are by definition wrong-doers'.
If I had to take a bet, I'd say the Emperors push Sol Invictus as 'sole god' (particularly if it's Constantine who wins, judging by his track record), or as 'chief god' - very easily incorporated into most polytheisms. Hell, for that matter, Zoroastrianism has Ahura Mazda be worshipped through fire! You could actually end up with a cool syncretic 'Sol Mazda' or whatever the hell the Middle Persian word for 'sun' is... Wait no, 5 mins of googling suggests it's Mihr. Who is already a god in Armenian paganism. Dammit.
Anyhoo, if Constantine/similar pushes 'Solism' (Solinism? Solarism?), I suspect he'd be rather successful in it. I'd argue most of the Eastern Empire, particularly around Constantinople would go Solinist due to his pressure, but the Levant might well go Christian. The Western Empire would be much more complicated - there's already strong Christian pockets in Rome, and there's no direct pressure that far over.
The discovery that the Moon and planets are lit up by the Sun would be claimed as proof of Sol Invictus being the one god.
Darn. Id been hoping to have a ruling religion/religions that didn't punish non believers. Woulda done wonders for religious relations and interfaith marriage. So basically Eastern Empire would most likely be majority worship of the sun while western would be christianity. I can see sooo many wars happening between them if solinism takes a "No other God except me" viewpoint like christianity. But the interesting thing would be the long term effects. We all know that eventually the Holy Roman Empire is created down the road. But would that happen with a second militant mono religion right next door? And how would this affect future events such as the Crusades and Inquisition? Would Europe be split between Christian and Solinism countries that constantly fight? Would Islam make inroads into europe at a faster or slower rate?
'Punishes the non-believers' doesn't have to happen. It all depends on how it happens. If Constantine & co. struggle to Solinism off the ground, I suspect they might well go for a 'punish the non-believers' route to force a resolution (likely in their favour, if they put their money where their mouth is).
However, they might go for the 'Sol is the chief god, but you can still worship the others in addition if you want'. Now you've got a distinct primary god ruling over lesser gods (not too dissimilar to Zeus-Ammon. Or indeed, to a certain viewpoint of Zoroastrianism, if I remember correctly). You might get away without if Sol simply punishes wrong-doers, and failing to worship him doesn't automatically put you in that camp.
On the other hand, good luck making that stick long term. Christianity is explicitly a pacifist religion, and people still fight wars over it. If someone wants to fight a war, they'll work out a way to make it happen, and religion is a convenient beatstick.
Incidentally, fun question - does Sol has an 'archenemy'? I'd bet that 'Darkness' would be it, in some form. Possibly some god of darkness and death (to contrast the whole 'Sol Invictus' thing?). Now that really would have interesting repercussions...
Future events? This would be a really big PoD. A real 'rewrite the history books lads'.
Much, much more likely that people like Charlemagne or Mohammad and states like the Holy Roman Empire or the Caliphate are completely butterflied away and are never born nor created. With a POD going all the way back to Constantine, Arabia and Germania would more likely be dominated by old pagan religions and different sects of this fractured Christianity. Both might also be influenced by this Sol cult (Solaris would be a good name), especially if Eastern Rome relies on Germanic mercenaries and guards.
I also think people are underestimating the potential for entirely new religions to spread. Someone living in an alternate history where Christianity never developed would probably look at its OTL success as being borderline ASB. Some new prophet could have had a vision influenced by older faiths proclaiming a new God and it could have spread like wildfire from there for one reason or another.
As a large religion? Yes. But as a dominating religion that spreads throughout europe? No. Zoroastrianism was a major religion spreading through persia. At it's height if we butterfly away Islams influence it could be a major religion in the middle east assuming judaism doesn't go rambo and spread far which is unlikely and assuming christianity doesn't attempt to take over the middle east. Most likely without islam it would be a combo between Zoroastrianism local middle eastern pagan religions and some worship of christianity and solaris.
