Question : In an Ottoman-Empire-survives world......

1) How would Islam be typically viewed there ? General conceptions, stereotypes, its "place" in the world, things like that.....

2) How would people from that world, view OTL ? An idea of world where Islamic world has gotten pretty much beaten into humiliated and undercredited giant backwater which has been irresponsibly, even innocently perceived as something close to non-existent, nothing but negligible titanic swathe of sands filled with angry backward peoples on it that later seems to be embarking on chaotic vendetta against anyone that doesn't share the same faith, should provoke quite of thoughts about it from them, muslims and non-muslims alike.


I imagined post-1750 PoDs, especially that of Selimiyan Success, 1877-78, and OE survives WW1 PoDs, when I came up with the questions above, and thus while I won't restrict anyone who'd like to think with pre-1750 PoDs in mind from bringing their thoughts here, I'd like to set a priority here.
 
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So the Ottomans survive for some 80+ years what they did IOTL? Is there no WWI world of any revolutions ATL? Things like that could have a major impact on any answer for either of your question.

EDIT: Not meaning to be flippant; just not sure what the answer would be without knowing more context. 'Ottomans survive' is a very large umbrella that plenty of things can fall under.
 
So the Ottomans survive for some 80+ years what they did IOTL? Is there no WWI world of any revolutions ATL? Things like that could have a major impact on any answer for either of your question.

EDIT: Not meaning to be flippant; just not sure what the answer would be without knowing more context. 'Ottomans survive' is a very large umbrella that plenty of things can fall under.

Hence why I wrote the last paragraph. It is a very large umbrella and I actually don't mind exploring it to every remote bits, but I'm most interested in ones that are closest to OTL world (and thuse ones with latest PoDs)... And everyone can take their own pick.
 
Considering these
1) How would Islam be typically viewed there ? General conceptions, stereotypes, its "place" in the world, things like that.....

2) How would people from that world, view OTL ? An idea of world where Islamic world has gotten pretty much beaten into humiliated and undercredited giant backwater which has been irresponsibly, even innocently perceived as something close to non-existent, nothing but negligible titanic swathe of sands filled with angry backward peoples on it that later seems to be embarking on chaotic vendetta against anyone that doesn't share the same faith, should provoke quite of thoughts about it from them, muslims and non-muslims alike.

Perhaps you should ask "What if the Caliphate survived to this day?" and not strictly the Ottoman Empire?
 
Considering these


Perhaps you should ask "What if the Caliphate survived to this day?" and not strictly the Ottoman Empire?

Post-Abassid, you can hardly talk about any other Caliphate other than Ottoman Empire. From 1517 onwards, Ottoman Empire became THE Caliphate. And also, I prioritize survival with late PoDs, post-1750, although most preferably post-1860, being simply the latest enough period to bear a resulted world most similar to OTL, and also for the factor of modern Pan-Islamism which was effectively born in that period.
 
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But nobody really cared about the Ottoman claim of Caliphate I am told after a time, if not right at start; maybe because those were turks,a clearly national state at first, so it kinda spoiled it in the eyes of arabs.. or something...
 
But nobody really cared about the Ottoman claim of Caliphate I am told after a time, if not right at start; maybe because those were turks,a clearly national state at first, so it kinda spoiled it in the eyes of arabs.. or something...

Ottoman Empire never was national state. It was always a universalist state based on Islam. Ethnic Turks were actually the least represented in the empire, and were looked down upon. Also, the historiography that is now standard among the Arabs didn't exist back then before European colonialism in Middle East. Though indeed, Arabs never really cared about Ottomans, simply regarding them as yet another Caliphate claimant, who happened to be the only one of such around..... Others did care though, especially the far away muslim Indians and Africans during the 19th century(when Ottomans' Caliphate status began to actually matter globally).....
 
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I wonder if I put this in the wrong section.... or that I should have just strictly focused on speculating scenarios with late PoDs instead of forcing my own greed forward.... :eek:


As for my own thoughts on this :

1) Certainly that some of the most iconic typical conceptions and attributes that are associated to OTL Islam, such as terrorism, suicide bombings, camel-riding sand-dwellers, strict misoginy, vehement religious intolerance, medievalism and the like will not take part in the list of popular generic stereotypes about Islam. It doesn't mean that stereotypings of Islam will be all good, though overall Islam's public image will certainly be much better and shinier than OTL(note that many Hindus actually revered Ottoman Sultans, too, and that taking aside the proud Ottoman tradition of tolerance and pragmatism in religious issues.). I think that the presence of active and centrally coordinated Pan Islamist movement will influence significantly on how Islam will be viewed from outside, especially regarding its role in decolonization process. This will leave quite a legacy, both good and bad. With more Sufistic influence dominating Islamic world instead that of Wahabism, I think humanism will be considerably less of a monopoly of the west.

Of course, as has been said, Islam will not be viewed always in positive light. I'm not sure what will be the Islamic equivalent of pedophile-priests issue. OTOH since it will be unlikely that Caliphate will abolish polygamy, and that I'm rather certain that some of the modern Ottoman Caliphs will be also polygamous, I think that polygamy issue will be one of the main arsenal to stick at Islam's face with. However, without people like OTL polygamous Wahabists campaigning for polygamy out of cultural reactionarism against unchecked stream of foreign influence, and with it being non-challantly practiced by many ultra-rich men across Muslim world, and with the fact that muslims generally don't like polygamy all that much and associate it with high social standings, I guess that overall polygamy will be regarded less objectionably compared to OTL's case. And of course that there will be alternative anti-Islamic slurs and such, it's just that so far I still can't figure what these will be....


2) This I can only figure out so much, and thus why I created this thread in the first place. I'm pretty sure they will be intrigued, and generally view OTL with our usual interested feeling for dystopia. The idea of mortal hostility between Jews and muslims will baffle them at worst, since most likely that in their world, the conspiracy theory about Judeo-Islamic plot to control the world via oil and control over globally vital shipping lines should be half as popular as OTL equivalent about Judeo-Christian alliance believed by exteremist muslims here. And I'm pretty interested on how they will take the OTL's case of oil-powered spread of rural dessert Salafism accross Islamic world....
 
I suppose the attitude from the West could largely come to depend on how the Ottomans treat their Christian minorities. If we're assuming the POD here is they remain neutral in the First World War, the question must be, how decent was treatment of the Greeks, Assyrians and Armenians in 1914? Was it improving, or getting worse, vis a vis the situation in, say, 1900? Like it or not, Western attitudes, will, I suspect, be greatly influenced by the experiences of those Ottoman subjects that Westerners feel they have the most in common with.
 
Others did care though, especially the far away muslim Indians and Africans during the 19th century(when Ottomans' Caliphate status began to actually matter globally).....
When did this start to fade away then? I ask as IIRC didn't the Ottomans try calling for a jihad against the Allies during the Great War and pretty much bugger all response from muslims in India and Africa?
 
I suppose the attitude from the West could largely come to depend on how the Ottomans treat their Christian minorities. If we're assuming the POD here is they remain neutral in the First World War, the question must be, how decent was treatment of the Greeks, Assyrians and Armenians in 1914? Was it improving, or getting worse, vis a vis the situation in, say, 1900? Like it or not, Western attitudes, will, I suspect, be greatly influenced by the experiences of those Ottoman subjects that Westerners feel they have the most in common with.

It was getting a lot worse. It didn't help that certain elements within the Ottoman Armenian and Greek community were working to dissolve the Ottoman Empire.
 
I suppose the attitude from the West could largely come to depend on how the Ottomans treat their Christian minorities. If we're assuming the POD here is they remain neutral in the First World War, the question must be, how decent was treatment of the Greeks, Assyrians and Armenians in 1914? Was it improving, or getting worse, vis a vis the situation in, say, 1900? Like it or not, Western attitudes, will, I suspect, be greatly influenced by the experiences of those Ottoman subjects that Westerners feel they have the most in common with.

It was getting a lot worse. It didn't help that certain elements within the Ottoman Armenian and Greek community were working to dissolve the Ottoman Empire.

Post-1878, I can see the point with the Armenians getting all the suspicions and all, but I'm not sure Greeks and Assyrians will receive any meaningful mistreatment by Ottoman authority. I guess the chance of horizontal conflict between Assyrians and another ethnic groups(more like being invaded by though), most likely the Kurds, will be rather likely, but I'm not sure. If anything the Kurds got their chance because of the war IOTL. Besides, if the empire stay out of WW1, shouldn't that mean better fate of empire's christians ? Without all the chaos, foreign invasions, and all.....

When did this start to fade away then? I ask as IIRC didn't the Ottomans try calling for a jihad against the Allies during the Great War and pretty much bugger all response from muslims in India and Africa?

Most likely after the defeat in 1878 by Russia. It did really put the prestige of the empire to the bottom of the gutter. Then again, there was this movement in India.... And, while most people most likely don't know this, there was the massacre of French expedition into the Saharas by the Tuaregs which led everyone in Europe pointing their finger to Ottoman direction. Recently, it was proven that the Ottomans were involved in that incident. IIRC, Abdul Hadi Pasha posted a thread about that somewhere......
 
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Obviously it depends on the rest of the world as well. If you're talking a victory by the Central Powers, then you've completely changed everything. If you're talking Ottoman neutrality, then that means Russia avoids collapsing- so once again, everything changes completely. Best for the purpose of this discussion, I think, that we try to minimize changes outside of the OE- so let's say the Ottoman blockades the straits like OTL but doesn't declare war then switches sides to the Allies once Russia collapses. And then assume that Hitler, WW2 and the Holocaust still occur with the Ottomans staying neutral, and then the partition of Europe between Washington and Moscow still occurs...

It then obviously depends on which side they take in the Cold War. If the Ottoman Empire sides with America then the Ottoman's will be America's single most important ally, moreso then even Britain(at least once they lose their colonies). Also they would be the primary source of oil for the West. I would expect them to be viewed in a light similar to or even more positive then Japan(they won't even have Pearl Harbour/WW2 hurting their image, and they probably have more in common with Western culture then the Japanese do).

But alliance with America is hardly guaranteed. The Ottoman's shared the USSR's opposition to Western colonialism for one thing(America was also inclined against it, but more ambivalent), they will have common cause in that regard. But they could also serve as an independent third power in the Cold War- the combination of the heft of Iraq and Saudi Arabian oil with the religious authority of the caliphate and a population, the moral authority of leadership of anti-colonial movements and a population base in the 100s of millions to draw upon is sufficient for them to easily be the world's third most powerful country. In the period between the Soviet collapse(assuming it still happens in TTL) and the recent ascendancy of China, it would even be the second most powerful country in the world. So this could obviously make it a target of loathing amongst many Westerners who'd see it as a rival.

Also, don't count on the absence of antisemitism. It's rise in the Islamic world was only partly due to Israel- co-option of Jews by colonial powers and Nazi propoganda played a significant role as well. This won't mean much in the Ottoman's core territories, but it will still be a problem in North Africa.
 
Well, I think alot of how the Muslim world would be perceived depends on when exactly the POD is. Obviously, the earlier the better. Assuming a WW1 POD, there is still going to be an image of the sick man of Europe, and the run of disastrous wars to back it up. The 1878 and Selimiyan POD's would change this alot. People couldn't think of Islam as a Asian and African religion, as there would be significant Muslim lands within Europe itself.

Islam itself is likely to be more liberal. Salafi influence will be curtailed, as the Saudis will either be irrelevent or non-existant, and there will be less resentment amongst Muslims for things the west has done OTL (no Israel, less western military intervention). Hopefully this will mean that Islam is perceived as less aggressive and combative.

But nobody really cared about the Ottoman claim of Caliphate I am told after a time, if not right at start; maybe because those were turks,a clearly national state at first, so it kinda spoiled it in the eyes of arabs.. or something...
I was always under the impression that it wasn't due to the perception of the Ottoman empire and Caliphate as a Turkish entity, rather that it was perceived as weak and unworthy to defend after its many defeats.

I suppose the attitude from the West could largely come to depend on how the Ottomans treat their Christian minorities. If we're assuming the POD here is they remain neutral in the First World War, the question must be, how decent was treatment of the Greeks, Assyrians and Armenians in 1914? Was it improving, or getting worse, vis a vis the situation in, say, 1900? Like it or not, Western attitudes, will, I suspect, be greatly influenced by the experiences of those Ottoman subjects that Westerners feel they have the most in common with.
This is quite an important question. Historically, the different groups of Christians had different situations. The Greeks had a Greek state around, and were very important in the economic equation as they made up alot of the mercantile class (although there was a growing Muslim mercantile class). If the Ottomans were neutral in World War 1, the Greeks can expect to have alot of the laws that gave them preferential treatment overturned, as the Ottomans abolish the capitulations which hampered them in the 19th century.

The Armenians, meanwhile, had no national state of their own to look to, and made a majority in no significant part of the empire. If the Ottoman empire stayed neutral in World War 1, there is a good chance that Tsarist Russia would make it through, seeing as how the allies would be able to supply them through the Dardanelles, and they would have one less enemy to deal with. Indeed, I think it was Falkenhayen who said that the war would have been over by some time in 1916 if the Ottomans were neutral. So there is little chance of an Armenian state appearing there, for the time being at least. Though the Russians are likely to appeal to the Armenians on behalf of Orthodoxy, there will be nothing like the Armenian rebellion and deportations of OTL unless the Ottomans get involved in a major war.

The Assyrians, I know less about (if only Leo was here...). What I know is that they made only a small minority in northern Mesopotamia, so they are unlikely to seek nationhood, so long as they are smart. This should be enough to guarentee them good treatment.

A key thing to remember about the situation of all the Christians (and the Jews) is that they were guaranteed equality earlier on in the 19th century, so all they really have to hope for is the enforcement of the decree that guaranteed them this.

No one really asked for this one, but the situation of Jews in the middle east is also likely to be light-years better then today. Most of the anti-semitism in the middle east is inspired by the existance of Israel. With a surviving Ottoman empire, there will most likely not be an Israel, and thus, alot of what inspires modern day anti-semitism will be gone. Maybe the Ottoman empire in general may be a refuge for Jews escaping persecution in Europe, as it was in the 16th century.
 
Is it true that there was some effort to pass the caliphate to the Nizam of Hyderabad in the 1930's in our timeline?
 
Obviously it depends on the rest of the world as well. If you're talking a victory by the Central Powers, then you've completely changed everything. If you're talking Ottoman neutrality, then that means Russia avoids collapsing- so once again, everything changes completely. Best for the purpose of this discussion, I think, that we try to minimize changes outside of the OE- so let's say the Ottoman blockades the straits like OTL but doesn't declare war then switches sides to the Allies once Russia collapses. And then assume that Hitler, WW2 and the Holocaust still occur with the Ottomans staying neutral, and then the partition of Europe between Washington and Moscow still occurs...

It then obviously depends on which side they take in the Cold War. If the Ottoman Empire sides with America then the Ottoman's will be America's single most important ally, moreso then even Britain(at least once they lose their colonies). Also they would be the primary source of oil for the West. I would expect them to be viewed in a light similar to or even more positive then Japan(they won't even have Pearl Harbour/WW2 hurting their image, and they probably have more in common with Western culture then the Japanese do).

But alliance with America is hardly guaranteed. The Ottoman's shared the USSR's opposition to Western colonialism for one thing(America was also inclined against it, but more ambivalent), they will have common cause in that regard. But they could also serve as an independent third power in the Cold War- the combination of the heft of Iraq and Saudi Arabian oil with the religious authority of the caliphate and a population, the moral authority of leadership of anti-colonial movements and a population base in the 100s of millions to draw upon is sufficient for them to easily be the world's third most powerful country. In the period between the Soviet collapse(assuming it still happens in TTL) and the recent ascendancy of China, it would even be the second most powerful country in the world. So this could obviously make it a target of loathing amongst many Westerners who'd see it as a rival.

Also, don't count on the absence of antisemitism. It's rise in the Islamic world was only partly due to Israel- co-option of Jews by colonial powers and Nazi propoganda played a significant role as well. This won't mean much in the Ottoman's core territories, but it will still be a problem in North Africa.

Well, I think alot of how the Muslim world would be perceived depends on when exactly the POD is. Obviously, the earlier the better. Assuming a WW1 POD, there is still going to be an image of the sick man of Europe, and the run of disastrous wars to back it up. The 1878 and Selimiyan POD's would change this alot. People couldn't think of Islam as a Asian and African religion, as there would be significant Muslim lands within Europe itself.

Islam itself is likely to be more liberal. Salafi influence will be curtailed, as the Saudis will either be irrelevent or non-existant, and there will be less resentment amongst Muslims for things the west has done OTL (no Israel, less western military intervention). Hopefully this will mean that Islam is perceived as less aggressive and combative.


I was always under the impression that it wasn't due to the perception of the Ottoman empire and Caliphate as a Turkish entity, rather that it was perceived as weak and unworthy to defend after its many defeats.


This is quite an important question. Historically, the different groups of Christians had different situations. The Greeks had a Greek state around, and were very important in the economic equation as they made up alot of the mercantile class (although there was a growing Muslim mercantile class). If the Ottomans were neutral in World War 1, the Greeks can expect to have alot of the laws that gave them preferential treatment overturned, as the Ottomans abolish the capitulations which hampered them in the 19th century.

The Armenians, meanwhile, had no national state of their own to look to, and made a majority in no significant part of the empire. If the Ottoman empire stayed neutral in World War 1, there is a good chance that Tsarist Russia would make it through, seeing as how the allies would be able to supply them through the Dardanelles, and they would have one less enemy to deal with. Indeed, I think it was Falkenhayen who said that the war would have been over by some time in 1916 if the Ottomans were neutral. So there is little chance of an Armenian state appearing there, for the time being at least. Though the Russians are likely to appeal to the Armenians on behalf of Orthodoxy, there will be nothing like the Armenian rebellion and deportations of OTL unless the Ottomans get involved in a major war.

The Assyrians, I know less about (if only Leo was here...). What I know is that they made only a small minority in northern Mesopotamia, so they are unlikely to seek nationhood, so long as they are smart. This should be enough to guarentee them good treatment.

A key thing to remember about the situation of all the Christians (and the Jews) is that they were guaranteed equality earlier on in the 19th century, so all they really have to hope for is the enforcement of the decree that guaranteed them this.

No one really asked for this one, but the situation of Jews in the middle east is also likely to be light-years better then today. Most of the anti-semitism in the middle east is inspired by the existance of Israel. With a surviving Ottoman empire, there will most likely not be an Israel, and thus, alot of what inspires modern day anti-semitism will be gone. Maybe the Ottoman empire in general may be a refuge for Jews escaping persecution in Europe, as it was in the 16th century.


Indeed that many would depend on the exact PoD being chosen, but there will be broad covergences between the possible worlds resulted, namely the absence of Wahabbism as dominant representative of Islam, the lack of Israel-inspired wide-spread Anti-semitism, and the survival of Islamic cultural confidence.

I'd like to know more about the historical Ottomania that is said to had happened during 17th century. Ottoman products such as the whole percussion entered Europe during those times, IIRC. Not only that, but Ottoman Empire and Europe had been culturally co-influential, and this is a factor to be considered. I think that at worst, Ottoman Culture, and to lesser extent Islamic world's, being pretty much its "mantel", will be regarded the way Chinese, or at least Japan has been IOTL, and likely to be as influential and "existing" globally. Also, with OE being the representative, legal representative, of Islamic world, it seems that people will stereotypically equate Islamic world with Ottoman Empire, as much as OTL people do with Saudi Arabia.


What would be more intriguing would be this way of Ottoman-survival scenario : OE enters WW1 as OTL and loses, and WW1 proceeds as OTL with OTL aftermaths except one thing: the Ottoman monarchy doesn't get abolished. It's one gravely weakened and pretty much over as even a minor power, but a Caliphate it still remains (this still means Islamic cultural confidence stay intact). This way, while we will still see the rise of Wahabbism to global scale, I think it's likely that there will be genuine alternative approach to Islam contending with Wahabbism. Immediate post WW2 world downwards will be interesting to see....


EDIT : Oh, and also don't forget about the question #2 also. It's the main reason I came up with this thread afterall.... ;)
 
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Is it true that there was some effort to pass the caliphate to the Nizam of Hyderabad in the 1930's in our timeline?

I sure never heard about that. But I have a hard time seeing the Caliphate mandate being passed to a subject of an infidel empire, one that actually destroyed previous Caliphate, as doable.
 
I sure never heard about that. But I have a hard time seeing the Caliphate mandate being passed to a subject of an infidel empire, one that actually destroyed previous Caliphate, as doable.

I might be mistaken, but I think that the then reigning Nizam was married to the daughter of the last Ottoman caliph.
 
1) It then obviously depends on which side they take in the Cold War. If the Ottoman Empire sides with America then the Ottoman's will be America's single most important ally, moreso then even Britain(at least once they lose their colonies). Also they would be the primary source of oil for the West. I would expect them to be viewed in a light similar to or even more positive then Japan(they won't even have Pearl Harbour/WW2 hurting their image, and they probably have more in common with Western culture then the Japanese do).

But alliance with America is hardly guaranteed. The Ottoman's shared the USSR's opposition to Western colonialism for one thing(America was also inclined against it, but more ambivalent), they will have common cause in that regard. But they could also serve as an independent third power in the Cold War- the combination of the heft of Iraq and Saudi Arabian oil with the religious authority of the caliphate and a population, the moral authority of leadership of anti-colonial movements and a population base in the 100s of millions to draw upon is sufficient for them to easily be the world's third most powerful country. In the period between the Soviet collapse(assuming it still happens in TTL) and the recent ascendancy of China, it would even be the second most powerful country in the world. So this could obviously make it a target of loathing amongst many Westerners who'd see it as a rival.

2) Also, don't count on the absence of antisemitism. It's rise in the Islamic world was only partly due to Israel- co-option of Jews by colonial powers and Nazi propoganda played a significant role as well. This won't mean much in the Ottoman's core territories, but it will still be a problem in North Africa.

1) I think it can be almost guaranteed that Ottomans would prefer US to Soviet Union. Pan Islamism will be a rival anti-colonialism ideology. It has to be noted that the collapse of Islamic prestige was a considerable factor that helped the spread of communism IOTL. Immediately after the dissolvement of Caliphate, Islam was regarded as nearly over, and it drove many intellectuals in Islamic world to lose faith in Islam and looked for alternatives. The most prominent example of this I think is Indonesia, with the break up of Sarekat Islam which was how PKI was born. With the Ottoman Empire surviving/absenting from WW1, communism and Soviet Union will receive considerably less power vacuum to fill.

Maybe in the initial phase of decolonization they will cooperate for a reason or two, but the moment the process is finished they will immediately turn to each other. Rather than cooperation though, I think it's more likely that they will just do a yell match during decolonization, or maybe even jump into three-way proxy war.

2) Okay I missed this part. I'm not knowledgeable about general North African Jewish population during colonial period, but I do know they were accommodated into French colonial regime in Algeria. But still I think that anti-semitism will have a hard time to be a global norm in Islamic world as per OTL's case. Though if Pasha was correct, Zionism will be likely to become a moderate-sized problem in the empire, but I don't think it will be nearly as bad as Armenian case like IOTL, and thus, should be pardonable more easily. IIRC, prior to Ottoman collapse Jewish community in Palestine and the whole empire(yes, including the recent Ashkenazi immigrants from Europe) used Turkish, instead of Hebrew, as their mother tongue.
 
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