Optimal Post-WWI Polish Borders Map Survey

[Magnificate]

Results after 23 responds, 13 Polish and 10 non-Polish. Discuss!

Some suggestions for the base map:

Where were you when I was at the beginning. I'll reply in more detail later, but most of them look reasonable if a bit too detailed.

EDIT:

(1) Divide Central Lithuania across the current Lithuanian-Belarusian border and separate Grodno from the Belarusian part.

No real need, since the current region is meant to represent Vilnius itself and 'Vilnius corridor'. Situation where Poland doesn't control Vilnius nor Belarus proper, but does control the strip of land between them is highly not probable. Unless I don't understand you right and you meant different division. Maybe you could draw your suggestions on the map?

(2) Divide the Bukovina across the current Romanian-Ukrainian border

.
No need. Bukovina itself is a very far-fetched claim on it's own.

(3) Incorporate Draheim and Poland's maximal claims in Slovakia.

Arrows are meant to represent further expansion. However I might include the max Slovakian claims instead of just Spisz and Orawa.

(4) Divide the Grenzmark into a Posen area and a West Prussian one.

Seems needlessly detailed. AFAIK there isn't much difference between the two.

(5) Separate Cracow, Auschwitz-Zator and the Polish part of Teschen Silesia from western Galicia.

I'm curious why do you think these should be separated?

(6) Separate Siewierz from the Polish core and divide the rest into a southeastern area (including Warsaw) and a northwestern one (including Lodz).

Good one on separating Siewierz, though it seems too small to be a separate region. As for Core division, I don't see why. Perhaps you meant hypothetical CP-victory annexations?

(7) Separate Soldau, the Kulmerland and the northern part of the Netze District from Pomerelia.
(8) Separate Prussian Lithuania, Warmia, Elbing, Marienburg, Marienwerder, and Deutsch Eylau from East Prussia.

Originally some of these were separate, but I merged them for sake of simplicy. Though you I'll most likely revert to previous version.

(9) Separate Gniesen from Posen and divide the rest into a northeastern area (including the city) and a southwestern one.

Posen needs to separated, but I don't think your division is the best. Perhaps I should see it on a map?

(10) Divide Nowogrodek across the Neman.

Well... maybe, but there doesn't seem to be that much difference between the two lands.

(11) Divide Bialystok and Brest to incorporate the Lithuanian claims.

Something has to be done about Brest and Grodno region...

(12) Separate the Rusyn regions in the Carpathians from the areas that they are in.

Why?

(13) Divide Suwalki into a northern area (including the city) and a southern one (including Augustow).

Good one in theory, but the resulting regions would be too small.

 

[Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy]

I'll reply in more detail later, but most of them look reasonable if a bit too detailed.

You could use a bigger base map.

Maybe you could draw your suggestions on the map?

OK, but it was a rush job. The point about this suggestion (and Auschwitz-Zator, Teschen Silesia, splitting the core, and the Rusyn regions) is to give more options to those members that are more sympathetic to the claims of the Germans, East Slavs, Lithuanians, and Czechs than to those of the Poles. So, for instance, we might have a Russian poster who wants to keep Belarus' modern-day western border but wouldn't mind giving Vilnius to Poland.

I'm curious why do you think these should be separated?

The reasons for Cracow would have to do with prioritizing.

Posen needs to separated, but I don't think your division is the best.

Here's an alternative. For clarity's sake, my division has Posen in the northern area and Gniesen in the eastern one.

Well... maybe, but there doesn't seem to be that much difference between the two lands.

The unified area has no coherence - it looks like an electoral district from the Deep South of the US. I would expect Poles to be significantly more interested in the south than in the north.

Does "ankieta" mean investigation?

 

[thrashing_mad]

Does "ankieta" mean investigation?

'Ankieta' = poll, survey.

 

[Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy]

'Ankieta' = poll, survey.

"Anchetă" means inquiry or investigation in Romanian.

 

[Magnificate]

You could use a bigger base map.

No problems here, I have really huge base map. I scaled it down ~10 times.

OK, but it was a rush job. The point about this suggestion (and Auschwitz-Zator, Teschen Silesia, splitting the core, and the Rusyn regions) is to give more options to those members that are more sympathetic to the claims of the Germans, East Slavs, Lithuanians, and Czechs than to those of the Poles.

Makes sense.

<Need to vacate the computer, I'll post the revamped map later.>

EDIT: Work in progress. Lithuania, Posen, Corridor and Silesian borders updated. Still needs work on East Prussia and minor territories. Any ideas for better A-B-C territories division? For that matter any ideas for better Priority/Color/Points Awarded ratio?

EDIT:

As both Hurgan and Molobo have aptly and amply demonstrated at times here, they dont really care about people being opressed per se. Their problem with other countries overlording over Poland isnt the overlording, but that they want to see Poland doing the overlording over other nations.

Polish rule over Ukrainians, Czechs, Lithuanians, Belarussians needs to be avoided, for the most part they live in their native territories, and possesion of them has little benefit for Poland. The rule over Germans is unavoidable since they inhabit core Polish territories as a result of over century of Germanisation including state-sponsored one And frankly Germans would see any kind of Polish rule over them as opressive due to several reasons(some held Poles inferior culturally, some were German nationalists, others would miss financial priviliages that German Empire granted to Germans in border areas and so on). Since Germany in interwar will never accept Poland as independent satte, then there is no reason for Poland to care for German feelings. Russia be it Soviet or Tsarist is a lesser threat to Polish existance then Germany(Russification failed, Germanisation was sucessfull, Communism had little apeal in Polish society).
Neither do I see Poland as a power on the level of France or UK-the reasonable choice for Poland is to engage into mutal defense alliances with neighbours-Czechoslovakia, Lithuania, Romania. It is difficult in Lithuania due to the fact that anti-Polish attitude was dominant in Lithuanian national revival, but can be done more easily with Czechs and Romanians. The best outcome would turning Little Entente into four nation block-Poland, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, Romania; allied of course with France. With less territorial expansion in the east a more neutral Soviet Union is possible.

Poland cannot become a Great Power, simple as that, and hence in a 1v1 will always lose against a rearmed Germany. Hence all those constructions to ensure the Polish defense against Germany are naively futile at best, and shoddy pretexts at worst. Poland can only hope for allies, and those are independent of its territory and borders.

Poland position and bargaining position are dependent on the state of its industry, infrastructure and ethnic composition. Any alliance against Germany has easier time winning with more industralised and modernised Poland and its army. Poland without unrestricted access to the sea will become a German puppet, Poland without Upper Silesia will have virtually no heavy industry.
Since Germany will not tolerate Poland anyway, there is no reason for Poland not to pursue opportunities to become stronger at cost of Germany.That by itself doesn't mean Poland can stand on its own against Germany-it needs Czechoslovakia, Romania, Yugoslavia and Lithuania-all of which are possible allies if played right, Romania was Polish ally in OTL, Czechoslovakia under right conditions can be too, and indeed tried to pursue an alliance in 1938.
As to German territories-they would have more Polish population then Volhyn for example, and with both German economical flight to Germany and Polish economical flight into them(job opportunities, better living conditons then does in the East), they wouldn't be hard to integrate. Certainly less then Ukrainian ones.

 

[Susano]

That being said, he has some point about East Prussia, because as long as Germany and Poland exist, there are Poles in the Corridor and Germans east of it, you could never satisfy both sides. Well, not in that era.

Which is a pity. Seeing how well it worked in case of the Danish-German mutual minorities. Of course, theyre smaller by a factor of 50-100 or so... :/

EDIT: Work in progress. Lithuania, Posen, Corridor and Silesian borders updated. Still needs work on East Prussia and minor territories. Any ideas for better A-B-C territories division?

Oh I like the borders in the Corridor, though Id still seperate Bromberg/Bydgoszcz from Thorn/Torun (at least thats how I figure the borders, that J involves both), seeing as how the surroundings of Thorn/Torun were polish majority. Having the District of Marienwerder/Kwidzyn (or of "West Prussia" IOTL interbellum) as own region makes sense, too. It was after all a plebiscite area IOTL. Speaking of which, what is N? It seems like half the district, but I dont recognice the significance of the border...

One could also have even more varied borders in Upper Silesia... those two southern counties in it voted so overwhelmingly Polish IOTL that Poland should get them under any circumstances for example... but that might really become too complicated then.

The border to Lithuania got suddenly, err, very detailed, but seeing my detail wish for the corridor I guess I cant complain Generally, I cant comment much on the east. Probably Id even have to look up the significance of most borders... oh, one suggestion, though: M could be further divided by drawing in the border you had on one of your Alternate Poland maps, since you said it was a compromise line in 1919 and so on...

For that matter any ideas for better Priority/Color/Points Awarded ratio?

Well, I would award Yellow at least one point or so, which of course means the other colours need to get more points. Say... green 3 (it needs to be a striking difference to Yellow), Blue 6 and purple 9 (so, decreasing logarithmic increase: x3, x2, x1.5). Red shouldnt be as many minus points as purple gets plus points: If you somehow have to get a purple territory by also getting a red one, then that should be a positive decision. So, uh, midways between blue and purple... -7.5? Well, that would get complicating...

Here's an alternative. For clarity's sake, my division has Posen in the northern area and Gniesen in the eastern one

Bah, that map is biased and untrue in its description: It suggests that Germany immidatly lost all the striped territories and then hoped to recover some, when in truth it was the other way round: That was the armistice line after the Great Poland/Posen uprising, and the striped lands beyond that line were later gained by Poland at Versailles. Still, the line itself looks correct, and thats what matters here...

/E: Oh, goddamn, dont proxy for that banned lunatic. I could argue it, but what it boils down to is what IBC has called proclaiming the "rights" of some blob on the map over the actually existing rights of individual people, and there is absolutely no reason to go on about that, which should be obvious and self-explaining, yet again for the 100th time.

 

[Magnificate]

Oh I like the borders in the Corridor, though Id still seperate Bromberg/Bydgoszcz from Thorn/Torun (at least thats how I figure the borders, that J involves both)

No, Toruń/Thorn is separate from J and instead featured in K.

Having the District of Marienwerder/Kwidzyn (or of "West Prussia" IOTL interbellum) as own region makes sense, too. It was after all a plebiscite area IOTL. Speaking of which, what is N?

In fact N is Marienwerder/Kwidzyn. Regions eastern borders are up to Iława/Eylau.

One could also have even more varied borders in Upper Silesia...

Current borders are: OTL, Korfanty Line, All Plebiscite Area, separate Industrial Region. These should be OK.

one suggestion, though: M could be further divided by drawing in the border you had on one of your Alternate Poland maps,

I'll try it and see whether it's not too detailed. I reworked the A-B-C region into 'Core' with Stanisławów, Tarnopol Region, and Pokuttya with Kołomyja. Should be OK.

green [...] it needs to be a striking difference to Yellow

True.

Red shouldnt be as many minus points as purple gets plus points: If you somehow have to get a purple territory by also getting a red one, then that should be a positive decision.

The again if I don't assign massive negative value to Red then I get maps with "Desired Expansion: Nearly Everywhere."

 

[Zuvarq]

You should do this for a couple other countries, but not for WWI, just 'optimal borders' in general. France, the USA, Germany, Spain, and Austria would be interesting...

 

[Abdul Hadi Pasha]

"Anchetă" means inquiry or investigation in Romanian.

That makes sense - "poll" is not that different from "inquiry" in meaning.

 

[Magnificate]

You should do this for a couple other countries, but not for WWI, just 'optimal borders' in general. France, the USA, Germany, Spain, and Austria would be interesting...

I'd love to do so, however I lack sufficient knowledge to draw these kind of borders for other countries.

Work in progress...
1 – West Galicia - (includes Kraków/Cracow),
2 – Spisz/Spiš and Orawa/Orava - beyond OTL borders,
3 – Cieszyn/Teschen - Silesia beyond OTL borders,
4 – Upper Silesia - up to OTL borders,
5 – Upper Silesia - between OTL borders and Korfanty Line,
6 – Upper Silesia - between Korfanty Line and plebiscite area borders,
7 – Greater Poland - Core (includes Poznań/Posen)
8 – Greater Poland - Outer (meant to represent less favorable Polish-German border in Greater Poland, includes Leszno/Lissa and Grodzisk/Grätz)
9 – Greater Poland - Noteć/Netze region (includes Bydgosz/Bromberg)
10 – The Corridor - Ziemia chełmińska/Kulmerland (includes Toruń/Thorn, Chełmo/Kulm and Działdowo/Soldau)
11 – The Corridor - Core
12 – The Corridor - Coast
13 – (meant represent more less favorable Polish-German border including most claims)
14 – Gdańsk/Danzig
15 – East-Prussia - Powiśle (includes Malbork/Marienburg, Kwidzyn/Marienwerder and Iława/Eylau)
16 – East-Prussia - Southern (up to plebiscite borders, includes Olsztyn/Allenstein)
17 – East-Prussia - Core (includes Królewiec/Königsberg/Kaliningrad)
18 – East-Prussia - Klaipėda/Memel
19 – Lithuania - Core (includes Kowno/Kaunas)
20 – Lithuania - (meant to represent more favorable Polish-Lithuanian border and more territories with significant Polish population)
21 – Lithuania - extension of ‘Vilnius corridor’ up to Latvia (approximately territories between interwar and modern Polish-Lithuanian borders)
22 – Lithuania - ‘Vilnius corridor’ (approximately territories between interwar and modern Polish-Lithuanian borders, includes Wilno/Vilnius)
territories between interwar and modern Polish-Lithuanian borders)
23 – Lithuania - Sudovia up to river Niemen/Neman, Neman west-bank (part of former Suwałki Governate & Congress Poland, includes Marijampolė/Mariampol)
24 – Podchalia - Suwałki/Suvalki
25 – Podchalia - (includes Augustów/Augustavas and Grodno/Hrodna)
26 – Podchalia - Białystok
<TBC>

Regions in in Kresy still could use refinement. Arrows and icons are now labeled since they tended to confuse the responders the most. To avoid +/- points interpretation issues I switched the scale to 0-10. Violet is worth 10 points, Blue 8 points, Green 6 points, Yellow 3 points and Red 0 points. Perhaps Yellow should only get 2 points, to represent the fact that these territories would be troublesome, but not as harmful as Red ones and thus acceptable. In fact Yellow could use a better description.

 

[Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy]

I'd love to do so, however I lack sufficient knowledge to draw these kind of borders for other countries.

You could try post-WWII Poland (PM me for feedback if that's what you decide) or I could help you with Romania and maybe even others, when I can find the time.

Edit: "Access to the Sea" means more of the Pomeranian coast, right?

 

[Magnificate]

Edit: "Access to the Sea" means more of the Pomeranian coast, right?

No. It is meant to be literal.

Access to the Sea – Secured regardless of land territories. For example it might represent either land connection to ports in the Corridor or Lithuania, ports in enclaves with exterritorial connection, condominium over ports or secured trade rights in neutral port.

 

[ctesiphon]

If the map is still under construction, may I suggest carving another zone out of # 31 with some Poles in it so that we can color borders similar to how it was in a previous map? (That is, make the "Vilnius Corridor" a bit wider to the east).

EDIT: Does someone have maps like the ones for German-Polish borderlands, but for the east? Hard to find anything better than this: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...kerungsverteilung_Ostmitteleuropa_um_1918.jpg

or this: http://marcinimatylda.blox.pl/resource/05_07_07_mapa_wkl_23_najlepsza.jpg , but the second one seems Polish-leaning

 

[Susano]

No, Toruń/Thorn is separate from J and instead featured in K.

Ah. Must be right at the border then, with the Vistula (finally! A name with a fixed English translation! ) as as border. In that case I would assign 9's east to 7, or people will colour in 9 simply for the sake of smooth borders (and besides, theres a Polish majority in the East, but pre-WW1 not in the west of 9). Then again, of course, that is in its current form, IIRC, the Armistice Line, an OTL border after all...

In fact N is Marienwerder/Kwidzyn. Regions eastern borders are up to Iława/Eylau.

Im pretty sure that the District of Marienwerder/Kwidzyn/"West Prussia" reached the sea and included Elbing/Elblag...

The again if I don't assign massive negative value to Red then I get maps with "Desired Expansion: Nearly Everywhere."

Eh, I guess. But you could then shift the red/blue-border from 0 to some positive value, so that areas with low positive values still appear as light red on the statistics map...

Also I propose that the thread is renamed the "Slashed Names Thread"

 

[Magnificate]

may I suggest carving another zone out of # 31 with some Poles in it so that we can color borders similar to how it was in a previous map?

Good point. I’ll try it to see if it isn’t too cluttered.

Then again, of course, that is in its current form, IIRC, the Armistice Line, an OTL border after all...

Indeed. However, neither 8 nor 9 follow the armstice line exactly and the smooth borders argument is certainly true.

Im pretty sure that the District of Marienwerder/Kwidzyn/"West Prussia" reached the sea and included Elbing/Elblag

Yes. However Elbląg/Elbing was not included into OTL plebiscite area and 15 reflects that. I might extend it, but that would likely change the priorities given to the region.

Eh, I guess. But you could then shift the red/blue-border from 0 to some positive value, so that areas with low positive values still appear as light red on the statistics map...

In fact… I could use more than two expand/don’t expand colors. Perhaps three colors to represent small/moderate/large or even five colors for rump/small/moderate/large/wank.

Also I propose that the thread is renamed the "Slashed Names Thread"

 

[Susano]

Indeed. However, neither 8 nor 9 follow the armstice line exactly and the smooth borders argument is certainly true.

Heh, on what is it based? It comes close to it, anyways:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/de/e/ec/DemarkationsliniePosen.jpg
Its not quite my proposed border, either, it seems. Seems like there is much room for border variance, heh.

Yes. However Elbląg/Elbing was not included into OTL plebiscite area and 15 reflects that. I might extend it, but that would likely change the priorities given to the region.

Oh. I didnt know that.

In fact… I could use more than two expand/don’t expand colors. Perhaps three colors to represent small/moderate/large or even five colors for rump/small/moderate/large/wank.

Eh, five colours would be the same amount as the chooseable colours, so that would not be enough abstraction, maybe...

EDIT: Does someone have maps like the ones for German-Polish borderlands, but for the east?

Yes, but not in digital form, sadly. The ethnic map of Pre-WW2 Europe of the current edition Putzger is quite good - the maps of previous edition is online, but doesnt show the ethnic "Vilnius Corridor" etc... though even that map isnt terribly detailed. It seems true, there isnt much for the Polish eastern lands - Austria-Hungary has that big-arse ethnic map on Wikipedia, but for the Russian Empire-Polish border, there is... few.

 

[Magnificate]

Its not quite my proposed border, either, it seems. Seems like there is much room for border variance, heh.

I simply choose two-counties-deep border. Original armistice line was just too thin to include. Compare.

1 – West Galicia - (includes Kraków/Cracow),
2 – Spisz/Spiš and Orawa/Orava - beyond interwar Polish-Czechoslovakian borders,
3 – Cieszyn/Teschen - Silesia beyond interwar Polish-German borders,
4 – Upper Silesia - up to interwar Polish-German borders,
5 – Upper Silesia - between interwar Polish-German borders and Korfanty Line,
6 – Upper Silesia - between Korfanty Line and plebiscite area borders,
7 – Greater Poland - Core (includes Poznań/Posen),
8 – Greater Poland - Outer (meant to represent less favorable Polish-German border in Greater Poland, includes Leszno/Lissa and Grodzisk/Grätz),
9 – Greater Poland - Noteć/Netze region (includes Bydgosz/Bromberg),
10 – The Corridor - Ziemia chełmińska/Kulmerland (includes Toruń/Thorn, Chełmo/Kulm and Działdowo/Soldau),
11 – The Corridor – Core,
12 – The Corridor – Coast,
13 – (meant represent more less favorable Polish-German border including most claims),
14 – The Corridor – Gdańsk/Danzig,
15 – East-Prussia - Powiśle (includes Malbork/Marienburg, Kwidzyn/Marienwerder and Iława/Eylau),
16 – East-Prussia - Southern (up to plebiscite borders, includes Olsztyn/Allenstein),
17 – East-Prussia - Core (includes Królewiec/Königsberg/Kaliningrad),
18 – East-Prussia - Klaipėda/Memel,
19 – Lithuania - Core (includes Kowno/Kaunas),
20 – Lithuania - (meant to represent more favorable Polish-Lithuanian border and more territories with significant Polish population),
21 – Lithuania - extension of ‘Vilnius corridor’ up to Latvia (approximately territories between interwar and modern Polish-Lithuanian borders),
22 – Lithuania - ‘Vilnius corridor’ (approximately territories between interwar and modern Polish-Lithuanian borders, includes Wilno/Vilnius),
territories between interwar and modern Polish-Lithuanian borders),
23 – Lithuania - Sudovia up to river Niemen/Neman, Neman west-bank (part of former Suwałki Governate & Congress Poland, includes Marijampolė/Mariampol),
24 – Podlachia - Suwałki/Suvalki,
25 – Podlachia - (includes Augustów/Augustavas and Grodno/Hrodna),
26 – Podlachia – Białystok region,
27 – Podlachia – Brześć/Brest region,
28 – Volhynia - (approximately former Chełm Governate, east of Curzon Line A, meant to represent less favorable post-Russian border with Ukraine, includes Chełm/Kholm and Zamość/??)
29 – West Galicia – (east of Curzon Line A, meant to represent less favorable post-Austro-Hungarian border with Ukraine, includes Przemyśl/Peremyshl and Rzeszów/Riashiv)
30 – Latvia – Dyneburg/Daugavpils/Dünaburg
31 – Latvia – Latgalia (includes Rzeżyca/Rēzekne)
32 – Ruthenia – (north of Niemen/Neman river, between Central Lithuania and interwar Polish-Soviet border)
33 – Ruthenia - extension of ‘Vilnius corridor’ up Central Lithuana border
34 – ?? – (includes Wołkowysk/Vawkavysk and Lida)
35 – Podlachia – (includes Kobryń/Kobryn)
36 – Volhynia – (between Curzon Line A and Styr River includes Kowel/Kovel and Włodzimierz Wołyński/Volodymyr-Volynskyi)
37 – Galicia - Lvov Region (territories between Curzon Lines A and B, includes Lwów/Lviv/Lemberg)
38 – Subcarpathian Ruthenia
39 – Podlachia – (south of Neman river, includes Pińsk/Pinsk
and Baranowice/Baranovichi)
40 – Volhynia – (between Styr river and interwar Polish-Soviet border, includes Równe/Rivne)
41 – Galicia - Core - (includes Stanisławów/Stanyslaviv/Ivano-Frankivsk)
42 – Galicia - Ternopil Region - (includes Tarnopol/Ternopil)
43 – Galicia - Pokuttya - (includes Kołomyja/Kolomyia)
44 – Bukovina
45 – Ruthenia – Core Belarus (includes Mińsk/Minsk)
46 – Podolia – (includes Kamieniec Podolski/ Kamianets-Podilskyi)
47 – Podolia – (includes Żytomierz/Zhytormyr and Bracław/Bratslav)

Sea Access – Secured regardless of land territories. For example it might represent either land connection to ports in the Corridor or Lithuania, ports in enclaves with exterritorial connection, condominium over ports or secured trade rights in neutral port.
Upper Silesia Industrial Region – Secured regardless of other Upper Silesian territories.

Last adjustments?

Re-filled:

 

[I Blame Communism]

My take, using the smart new map.



This is meant to be based on utility to the Polish state and not Ancient Laws of Ancient Incontrivertable Justice, in keeping with cynical view of foreign relations.

Purple: Those areas which can be brought to the Polish state more-or-less by default, where Polish population is a compact majority, and there's really no reason for Poland not to have them. Sea-access and a good industrial base are indispensible resources for the new state. I consider pretty much all this area to be "rightfully" Polish, for what it's worth.

Blue: Areas which ought to be taken as quickly as possible and not relinquished without a fight, which any secure Polish state is going to include. Include the Korfanty line and a line taking in Lwow and Wilno within reasonably substantial borders. My view on whether Poland taking these areas is justified varies from yes (Cieszyn) to the Korfanty Line (no) and everything in-between.

Green: Areas which Poland probably can acquire, if it tries, and probably should, but which should also be given up promptly if that proves more conveniant. Purple-blue-green is what I consider a plausible and sustainable Poland that's better-off than OTL; but again that implies no particular opinion on whether these borders are morally "right".

Yellow: Areas which should be taken if they fall into Poland's lap or if nobody else wants them, eg: if a pro-Polish coup happens in Lithuania, but which Poland has no need to actively pursue.

Red: Areas whose inherent value is outweighed by their inherent cost to the Polish state, or which are crazy-ambitious.

Some reasoning:

-Lvov and Wilno are major Polish centres. Who else should have them?

-Bully Germany for valuable things, but not territories containing nothing except Germans.

-Galicia contains oil and other goodies and ought to be swallowed whole simply because the Ukrainian Galicians are so distinct from the others.

-Don't piss of Russia unduly.

-Take Lithuania or leave it.

 

[ZaphodBeeblebrox]

The Big Irony is, After ALL that Work ...

With the Possible Exception of Both The "Rape me Please" and "Poland vs. The World" Maps; it Seems as if The General Consensus, is Inter-War Poland Represented a Pretty Fair Compromise, Between All of The Competing Interests, Huh?

The Problem is, at Least in The Case of Poland, Plebiscite-Based Maps SIMPLY don't Create a Viable Country; Either it's Far too Meek, or it Pisses off Every Single One of its Neighbours at its Very Inception ...

More Troubling, at Least to me, is The Observation that Basilisk and Ctesiphon are EQUALLY RIGHT; it IS Destabilizing to Have Any German Communities East of The Oder, And it IS Tantamount to Genocide to Force them to Move!

 

[I Blame Communism]

it IS Destabilizing to Have Any German Communities East of The Oder, And it IS Tantamount to Genocide to Force them to Move!

That's, uh, frankly balls. What's destabilising about German Breslau? What's tantamount to genocide about a shit record of minority rights?