"Now Blooms the Tudor Rose."

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Barbarossa Rotbart

I believe another saying is true:
"I against my brother, my brothers and I against my cousins, then my cousins and I against strangers".

Even today Germany is not a monolithic block:
- North vs. South
- East vs. West
- Everyone vs. Bavaria ! (The chance for a (real) Bavarian to become chnacellor is zero!)

So the situation we have in TTL is normal for Germany.

In OTL the HRE was de facto dissolved with the Westphalian Peace of 1648! But the Emperor had lost his power long before that.
 
Space Oddity

Space Oddity

Barbarossa Rotbart said:
In OTL the HRE was de facto dissolved with the Westphalian Peace of 1648! But the Emperor had lost his power long before that.
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Actually, no, it wasn't. In fact, the immediate fallout of the Thirty Years War was to make the Emperor--if not the Empire--more powerful than he'd been in years. But one can argue--though it is debatable--that Westphalia sped up the internal rot.
 

Barbarossa Rotbart

Space Oddity said:
Actually, no, it wasn't. In fact, the immediate fallout of the Thirty Years War was to make the Emperor--if not the Empire--more powerful than he'd been in years. But one can argue--though it is debatable--that Westphalia sped up the internal rot.
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If that was the plan, it failed!
Several electors becoming kings of realms outside the HRE (England, Prussia, Poland)...
Wars between member states of the HRE...
An extremely slow bureaucracy (including justice)...
 
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Arachnid

Space Oddity said:
"...And yet ultimately, it is a mistake to call the Second Schmakaldic War a War of Religion. As demonstrated by the various feuds of the Dukes of Brunswick, Reformed, Evangelical and Catholic fought for many reasons, of which dynastic ambitions were often the foremost. One could argue that this was true of the Wars of Religion as well--and yet such an argument falls flat in the face of the annihilationist rhetoric that so dominates the early and middle stages of those later conflicts. For all its chaos, for all its hardship, for all its viciousness, for all its horror, the Second Schmakaldic War was fought between foes willing to at least entertain the idea of coexistance..."

Walter Heinz, Every Man For Himself, And God Against All[1]: A History of the Second Schmakaldic War (1974)
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Am I the only one who finds this slightly worrying?
 

ed_montague

Speaking of the Thirty Year's War: Swedeeeeen

I mean, really. We've got Erik XIV, who's reasonably competent and not too unstable, brother Johan is down for the moment, Magnus is off where he can't do much harm...things are going pretty good for that Scandinavian country. Anyone else cheering for Sweden in this TL?
 
Derekc2

Derekc2

ed_montague said:
Speaking of the Thirty Year's War: Swedeeeeen

I mean, really. We've got Erik XIV, who's reasonably competent and not too unstable, brother Johan is down for the moment, Magnus is off where he can't do much harm...things are going pretty good for that Scandinavian country. Anyone else cheering for Sweden in this TL?
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I am also cheering. Wasn't Erik XIV also the father of Gustav Adolph II? I hope he will not be butterflyed away. He was one of the greatest kings ever.
 
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ed_montague

Derekc2 said:
I am also cheering. Wasn't Erik XIV also the father of Gustav Adolph II? I hope he will not be butterflyed away. He was one of the greatest kings ever.
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Erik fathered a prince named Gustav, but not the one you're thinking of. Gustavus Adolphus Rex Sueciae was the son of Charles, the youngest brother of Erik. He still has a chance--Erik's still kind of unstable, Johan is languishing in semi-exile, Magnus probably has the best chance to succeed in a power play but is off being Duke of Estonia...Charles actually stands to win big as long as he keeps quiet and manages to produce an heir. Not that it's likely that said heir will end up being the Gustav II Adolf that we know and love, but we ended up with an intelligent Elizabeth Tudor (who wasn't so much of a virgin), so who knows.
 
Brainbin

Brainbin

I think by now you should all be very much aware of which side I will always be cheering for. Not that any of you asked, mind, but still... :D
 

Elfwine

And I think my allegiance is similarly predictable.

All right thinking people (and even Protestants*) should agree that Prince Karl von Spanien** is at least interesting and promising,

But I'm rooting for Ferdinand as the legitimate (and so far, decent) emperor - although that may also have something to do with finding anti-royal aristocrats to be anathema than being in favor of the Imperial cause per se, my Team Hapsburg banner aside.

* Kidding. But as a Habsburg supporter, that makes me at least nominally pro-Catholic in this timeline.

** Cawwos. :D Using German in honor of his grandfather.
 
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